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Hearts v Rangers, 2nd Dec 2018, 12:00

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On 05/12/2018 at 11:16, Pet Jeden said:

Firstly you claimed the refs were from all over Scotland.  So We detailed how all the top flight refs are Lanarkshire/Glasgow. And 2 ofthe Glasgow ones are from or work in Lanarkshire.

Secondly you claimed it must just be a quality thing. I refuse to believe that has been the case over so many decades. (Sounds like the alleged old Rangers defence of "we'll sign a RC when we find one good enough" )  And it's self-fulfilling - if a young ref from Dundee sees that it's the guys from the Lanarkshire mafia that get fast-tracked and get the top games, then obviously they are going to tend to drop out.

Thirdly you claim it's okay because it balances out because Rangers refs would want to screw Celtic and vice versa. But they are both scared of provoking the other.  Remember, all  - not some or most, but all the top flight refs grew up supporting (Thomson the exception ?) and/or live amongst, work with Rangers/Celtic supporters and would probably like to avoid piss-takes all week following decisions that hurt Rangers or Celtic. 

You must recognise that the current situation is just plain wrong. What is needed is "affirmative action" -  all east coast short lists !

We shall overcome........

So firstly, it hasn't been the case over so many decades, as detailed previously, Calum Murray was a fifa ref, Edinburgh born and hibs fan. How Did he slip through the net? 

It doesn't surprise me you're in favour of affirmative action. It's a key indicator of a failure in life when folk are unable to take personal responsibility of their lives. It's always some higher power holding you back eh? Pathetic.

I made a joke comment a few posts ago talking about what an excellent standard of ref there must be in the east coast non leagues due to them all being held back. In actual fact the standard is terrible (across the board but gets worse the further you go from the west region). Referee applications and numbers at all levels (including the guys who want to do kids/amateur games for beer money) are significantly less everywhere other than the west coast. Even in a comparable population centre like Edinburgh the numbers aren't even close. The same is true of amateur and non league teams. Far more in Glasgow than anywhere else. What conclusion does that lead you to? More people are into football in Glasgow than anywhere else.

Now I don't know this but I'd be fairly confident in saying if you done a similar study of rugby then Edinburgh would be significantly more represented than Glasgow.

So you're (perhaps flippant) comment about affirmative action suggests that it is a given refs will cheat, so just accept it and get an even representation? (Assuming most people in other places support the local team, which if course we know they don't). How very social justice and idiotic.

 

P.s. I'm glad we had Steven McLean reffing out game on Wednesday. What a sterling pro old firm performance he put in......

 

Edited by weegienative

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On 05/12/2018 at 13:08, Ginaro said:

Your friend is talking shite, the six East Superleague matches all get assistant referees. Same with the West Premiership, some of the West Championship games, and all of the Junior Cup ties. The difference in the east is that there's also the East of Scotland, which gets ARs for six or seven of its 18 matches.

Well my goodness haven't you proven me wrong with your anecdotal one week evidence? "Frequently", look up the definition. Hint: it doesn't mean "always".

This guy must be talking shite eh?

This took 2 seconds to Google. There are numerous other examples of the same situation arising again and again.

Basically if all being well the top divisions in both regions will have assistants. When there's a few call offs the west have plenty in reserve to cover and the east don't. But I'm sure that's all part of the evil plan to make sure hearts get a half a yard offside goal against them whilst getting away with red card challenges.

Edited by weegienative

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6 minutes ago, weegienative said:

So firstly, it hasn't been the case over so many decades, as detailed previously, Calum Murray was a fifa ref, Edinburgh born and hibs fan. How Did he slip through the net? 

It doesn't surprise me you're in favour of affirmative action. It's a key indicator of a failure in life when folk are unable to take personal responsibility of their lives. It's always some higher power holding you back eh? Pathetic.

I made a joke comment a few posts ago talking about what an excellent standard of ref there must be in the east coast non leagues due to them all being held back. In actual fact the standard is terrible (across the board but gets worse the further you go from the west region). Referee applications and numbers at all levels (including the guys who want to do kids/amateur games for beer money) are significantly less everywhere other than the west coast. Even in a comparable population centre like Edinburgh the numbers aren't even close. The same is true of amateur and non league teams. Far more in Glasgow than anywhere else. What conclusion does that lead you to? More people are into football in Glasgow than anywhere else.

Now I don't know this but I'd be fairly confident in saying if you done a similar study of rugby then Edinburgh would be significantly more represented than Glasgow.

So you're (perhaps flippant) comment about affirmative action suggests that it is a given refs will cheat, so just accept it and get an even representation? (Assuming most people in other places support the local team, which if course we know they don't). How very social justice and idiotic.

 

P.s. I'm glad we had Steven McLean reffing out game on Wednesday. What a sterling pro old firm performance he put in......

 

It certainly wasn't pro Aberdeen.

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2 hours ago, weegienative said:

So firstly, it hasn't been the case over so many decades, as detailed previously, Calum Murray was a fifa ref, Edinburgh born and hibs fan. How Did he slip through the net? 

It doesn't surprise me you're in favour of affirmative action. It's a key indicator of a failure in life when folk are unable to take personal responsibility of their lives. It's always some higher power holding you back eh? Pathetic.

I made a joke comment a few posts ago talking about what an excellent standard of ref there must be in the east coast non leagues due to them all being held back. In actual fact the standard is terrible (across the board but gets worse the further you go from the west region). Referee applications and numbers at all levels (including the guys who want to do kids/amateur games for beer money) are significantly less everywhere other than the west coast. Even in a comparable population centre like Edinburgh the numbers aren't even close. The same is true of amateur and non league teams. Far more in Glasgow than anywhere else. What conclusion does that lead you to? More people are into football in Glasgow than anywhere else.

Now I don't know this but I'd be fairly confident in saying if you done a similar study of rugby then Edinburgh would be significantly more represented than Glasgow.

So you're (perhaps flippant) comment about affirmative action suggests that it is a given refs will cheat, so just accept it and get an even representation? (Assuming most people in other places support the local team, which if course we know they don't). How very social justice and idiotic.

 

P.s. I'm glad we had Steven McLean reffing out game on Wednesday. What a sterling pro old firm performance he put in......

 

Give it a rest man - constantly quoting Calum Murray as some kind of proof that there isn't a self-selecting west coast clique. I get that Glasgow is, or was, more football oriented than Edinburgh. But Glasgow/Lanarkshire/Renfrewshire is less than 1/5 of Scotland's population but accounts for all the top-flight refs. That smells. And if you are going to say that it is all down to raw talent, then I am going to say just 2 words : Andrew Dallas.

btw I think you've got Calum Murray wrong. He's one of ours. You might be confusing him with "Dougie Dougie" MacDonald, the Hibby ref that had to resign 7 or 8 years ago after getting caught lying about a (perfectly good) decision against Celtic 

Edited by Pet Jeden

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2 hours ago, weegienative said:

Well my goodness haven't you proven me wrong with your anecdotal one week evidence? "Frequently", look up the definition. Hint: it doesn't mean "always".

This guy must be talking shite eh?

This took 2 seconds to Google. There are numerous other examples of the same situation arising again and again.

Basically if all being well the top divisions in both regions will have assistants. When there's a few call offs the west have plenty in reserve to cover and the east don't. But I'm sure that's all part of the evil plan to make sure hearts get a half a yard offside goal against them whilst getting away with red card challenges.

According to the list of appointments posted by the SJFA, 3 out of 48 East Superleague games have had no ARs assigned (64 games total this season but they didn't post the lists for a couple of weeks in October). I would hardly call that "frequently". :rolleyes:

Posting a thread from three years ago doesn't really back up your friend's statement or refute the list of appointments from last season either. Plus there's the Lowland League which takes priority over the Juniors and is more likely to be covered by east officials given the location of clubs.

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23 hours ago, Pet Jeden said:

Give it a rest man - constantly quoting Calum Murray as some kind of proof that there isn't a self-selecting west coast clique. I get that Glasgow is, or was, more football oriented than Edinburgh. But Glasgow/Lanarkshire/Renfrewshire is less than 1/5 of Scotland's population but accounts for all the top-flight refs. That smells. And if you are going to say that it is all down to raw talent, then I am going to say just 2 words : Andrew Dallas.

btw I think you've got Calum Murray wrong. He's one of ours. You might be confusing him with "Dougie Dougie" MacDonald, the Hibby ref that had to resign 7 or 8 years ago after getting caught lying about a (perfectly good) decision against Celtic 

Possibly re: calum Murray. I know it was one of the Edinburgh teams he supported.

Andrew Dallas is there because of who his dad is, no other reason. He is literally that bad!

Think your stats on the population are a bit off. Less than 20%. The greater Glasgow region (extending that to hamilton/Motherwell/airdrie/paisley/ east kilbride/greenock as that covers the ref associations you mention) account for over 2 million people. Over 33% and close to 40% of the population of Scotland. Taking into account the sporting preference variances across Scotland it could be argued that well over half of the football supporting population of Scotland are in this region.

You give Andy Dallas as an example of a shit ref (no arguments there). I give you mat northcroft. He was from up north somewhere, Inverness I think. He was so bad before he had to get downgraded it was widely known he was in as token "non central belt" ref to appease people like yourself. If he was the best they had to offer is it any wonder no one else gets promoted?

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On 07/12/2018 at 12:10, FuzzyBear said:

It certainly wasn't pro Aberdeen.

Really?

I didn't notice Graham shinnie being down as an assistant referee for the match.

Aberdeen came to stifle the game, break it up, time waste and generally spoil the game to get a 0-0 with a chance of nicking one, which they did. I'd be amazed if Steven McLean let the game flow for more than 30s at any point without blowing up for a nothing foul. He got bullied by shinnie and Aberdeen and looked so weak. 

This isn't to say it was his fault rangers got beat, we were garbage and couldn't have scored in a barrel of fannies. It doesn't detract from the point he was in no way favouring us. He couldn't wait to get morelos in the book After all the faux hysteria caused by levein since Sunday (second card was idiocy from morelos).

So where's the bias? 

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18 hours ago, Ginaro said:

According to the list of appointments posted by the SJFA, 3 out of 48 East Superleague games have had no ARs assigned (64 games total this season but they didn't post the lists for a couple of weeks in October). I would hardly call that "frequently". :rolleyes:

Posting a thread from three years ago doesn't really back up your friend's statement or refute the list of appointments from last season either. Plus there's the Lowland League which takes priority over the Juniors and is more likely to be covered by east officials given the location of clubs.

The lowland league is a national completion and not regionally separated in terms of ref appointments. So refs and assistants from all over are appointed to the games.

The fact it was 3 years ago is actually more relevant to the current lack of East coast refs in the senior game. It may have resulted in a recruitment drive to get new refs in, hence we see the games this season being better covered. The refs from 3 seasons ago would be the ones eligible for promotion potentially to the seniors now. 

Of your stats above, what is the % of games in the west premier without ARs? 

The east region has gone from 4 divisions to 3 (of 12 teams) this season meaning only 6 games need covered with ARs this year. Compared to the west which has gone from 5 to 4 divisions of 16 teams, meaning 16 games need ARs.

This is replicated in the amateur leagues where there are far more in Glasgow than anywhere else.

The sheer volume of refs down here mean unless there is some form of affirmative action (discrimination based on your social grouping rather than a merit based system) the west coast refs will always be the "dominant" group.

All of the above is predicated on the assumption that refs are

A) biased 

B) fans of the team of the location in which they reside. (If you can take the anti old firm specs off for a minute, can you really say in your heart of hearts that your average punter in Edinburgh, Dundee or Aberdeen won't be a fan of an old firm team?)

Rangers red card rate this season, around 2 of which are 100% deserved, would prove any bias claims to be completely ridiculous.

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Just watching Bournemouth v Liverpool.

Mo Salah first goal offside.

I await all the claims of Merseyside refs bias and it being ridiculous that not enough Bournemouth based refs are in the premier league.

Edited by weegienative

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On 07/12/2018 at 14:28, Pet Jeden said:

Give it a rest man - constantly quoting Calum Murray as some kind of proof that there isn't a self-selecting west coast clique. I get that Glasgow is, or was, more football oriented than Edinburgh. But Glasgow/Lanarkshire/Renfrewshire is less than 1/5 of Scotland's population but accounts for all the top-flight refs. That smells. And if you are going to say that it is all down to raw talent, then I am going to say just 2 words : Andrew Dallas.

btw I think you've got Calum Murray wrong. He's one of ours. You might be confusing him with "Dougie Dougie" MacDonald, the Hibby ref that had to resign 7 or 8 years ago after getting caught lying about a (perfectly good) decision against Celtic 

Still think there's a west coast bias following the decisions in the Dundee rangers match? 

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1 hour ago, weegienative said:

Still think there's a west coast bias following the decisions in the Dundee rangers match? 

Haven't watched it. I'm sure both Rangers and Celtic do get bad decisions against them. But the weight of bad decisions go for them. And I have never claimed that the bias is conscious. Just a fear of getting it wrong against those 2 teams. Most non-OF fans would say the same. Amongst Hearts, Hibs Aberdeen, Killie, St Johnstone - I fully expect bad decisions to balance themselves out over any 2 season period. But against your lot or Celtic ? No chance. And until the SFA get a better spread of refs - or even acknowledge that there is a problem - then any fair minded person has to conclude that there is indeed bias.

Imagine if at the world cup all the quarter finals, semi finals and finals were refereed only by German or Spanish referees - even where the matches involved those teams. Do you think everybody would just say, aye that's okay, because they do play a lot of football in those 2 countries and their refs there are good  ?

 

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1 minute ago, Pet Jeden said:

Haven't watched it. I'm sure both Rangers and Celtic do get bad decisions against them. But the weight of bad decisions go for them. And I have never claimed that the bias is conscious. Just a fear of getting it wrong against those 2 teams. Most non-OF fans would say the same. Amongst Hearts, Hibs Aberdeen, Killie, St Johnstone - I fully expect bad decisions to balance themselves out over any 2 season period. But against your lot or Celtic ? No chance. And until the SFA get a better spread of refs - or even acknowledge that there is a problem - then any fair minded person has to conclude that there is indeed bias.

Imagine if at the world cup all the quarter finals, semi finals and finals were refereed only by German or Spanish referees - even where the matches involved those teams. Do you think everybody would just say, aye that's okay, because they do play a lot of football in those 2 countries and their refs there are good  ?

 

So far this season there have been 4 goals for us wrongly chopped off as being offside when they were on or being on when over the line. 2 goals for the opposition which were offside and didn't get flagged. Some of those were in Europe. Domestically, the ones I remember are morelos away at Kilmarnock, lafferty at Dundee yesterday and morelos in the home game vs Dundee. In addition to those there have been at least 2 indisputably wrong red cards and 2 (which I can remember off the top of my head) game changing decisions by the ref which have directly influenced the result of the game(s) wrongly gone against us, more which haven't influenced the result luckily;

Dom Ball should have been red carded by Clancy in the opening game when he gave away the penalty, pulled back windass when he was tapping into an open goal. Blatant hand ball yesterday in the box by a Dundee defender unpunished. Net result a 4 point loss. Additionally Sean Clare should have been sent off in the game last week and morelos was incorrectly flagged offside when it was 2-1 in the same game. The ball put him through on goal and was a good 2 yards onside when flagged off.

I'm curious where all the decisions we get in our favour are to cancel and indeed trump those listed above? Can you enlighten me?

Again  you're going back to geography. A guy from Edinburgh is just as likely to be an old firm fan as a hearts or hibs fan, so it's a pointless argument.

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1 hour ago, weegienative said:

Still think there's a west coast bias following the decisions in the Dundee rangers match? 

Okay - watched it now. Offside decision unlucky but at least the linesman can claim that it happened at pace ( unlike the 3 stationary Rangers players at Tynecastle last week)  I thought the red card was harsh. The handball non-pen ? Meh. I  don't think it was deliberate but would fully expect Collum to give it. He is a ref not only tainted in my view by his pro-Glasgow decisions but also by not appearing to have any appreciation of the game at all.

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15 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Haven't watched it. I'm sure both Rangers and Celtic do get bad decisions against them. But the weight of bad decisions go for them. And I have never claimed that the bias is conscious. Just a fear of getting it wrong against those 2 teams. Most non-OF fans would say the same. Amongst Hearts, Hibs Aberdeen, Killie, St Johnstone - I fully expect bad decisions to balance themselves out over any 2 season period. But against your lot or Celtic ? No chance. And until the SFA get a better spread of refs - or even acknowledge that there is a problem - then any fair minded person has to conclude that there is indeed bias.

Imagine if at the world cup all the quarter finals, semi finals and finals were refereed only by German or Spanish referees - even where the matches involved those teams. Do you think everybody would just say, aye that's okay, because they do play a lot of football in those 2 countries and their refs there are good  ?

 

And another point I made last week. Look at the media hysteria following morelos' goal at tynecastle.

The onside goal wrongly flagged off yesterday has received next to no coverage.

And you think he media try to help us? Maybe one team from Glasgow but certainly not us.

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3 minutes ago, weegienative said:

So far this season there have been 4 goals for us wrongly chopped off as being offside when they were on or being on when over the line. 2 goals for the opposition which were offside and didn't get flagged. Some of those were in Europe.Exactly  Domestically, the ones I remember are morelos away at Kilmarnock, lafferty at Dundee yesterday and morelos in the home game vs Dundee. In addition to those there have been at least 2 indisputably wrong red cards and 2 (which I can remember off the top of my head) game changing decisions by the ref which have directly influenced the result of the game(s) wrongly gone against us, more which haven't influenced the result luckily;And you've forgotten the bad decisions for you

Dom Ball should have been red carded by Clancy in the opening game when he gave away the penalty, pulled back windass when he was tapping into an open goal. Blatant hand ball was it deliberate ? never blatant  yesterday in the box by a Dundee defender unpunished. Net result a 4 point loss. Additionally Sean Clare should have been sent off in the game last week No he shouldn't. No excess force and got the ball and morelos was incorrectly flagged offside on the touchline ? big deal  when it was 2-1 in the same game. The ball put him through on goal and was a good 2 yards onside when flagged off.

I'm curious where all the decisions we get in our favour are to cancel thought 2 of your overturned reds were a joke - but not strictly a refs issue. where's compliance officer from ? Won't be Aberdeen, will it ? and indeed trump those listed above? Can you enlighten me?

Again  you're going back to geography. A guy from Edinburgh is just as likely to be an old firm fan as a hearts or hibs fan incorrect, so it's a pointless argument.  Can't make up my mind if you are deluded or a chancer. Or an employee of the SFA

 

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6 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Okay - watched it now. Offside decision unlucky but at least the linesman can claim that it happened at pace ( unlike the 3 stationary Rangers players at Tynecastle last week)  I thought the red card was harsh. The handball non-pen ? Meh. I  don't think it was deliberate but would fully expect Collum to give it. He is a ref not only tainted in my view by his pro-Glasgow decisions but also by not appearing to have any appreciation of the game at all.

At first glance I thought the red was harsh, but when you look again it's a dangerous lunge that connects with his ankle. No malice from the boy but still a red. Laughably the red was given for a denying a goal scoring opportunity by the ref so Dundee will win the appeal probably. 

The lino in the tynecastle game looked at the kicker as it was being taken hence him missing morelos going early.

The lafferty call yesterday was just as easy IMO as lafferty was level or behind the crosser, so the position of the defenders was irrelevant. The handball was hand to ball i thinj, ive seen far more innocent ones given. I'm not attaching any bias as a contributer, I just think the refs are shite, irrespective of where they were born.

The reason I mention the media hysteria is because it contradicts your theory that refs subconsciously don't give contentious issues against us because of the attention it will bring. As you can see, there was significantly more attention given to a decision in our favour than a few against us. 

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5 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

 

If I've forgotten the bad decisions for us, enlighten me as I've already asked. It's quite possible as all football fans view the game through tinted lenses.

It was blatant hand ball. The question is whether it was deliberate or not. There is a clear movement by his arm to the ball.

Sean Clare's challenge is as textbook a red as you'll ever see. To deny this is really diminishing you're ability to at least appear objective.

Morelos would have been baring down on goal, the defenders were miles off him. There was an attacker breaking forward in the middle, it would have provided a very good scoring opportunity.

You think candeias 2nd yellow was justified? (It didn't get overturned btw)

I've no idea where the compliance officer is from, but considering what hearts have got away with this week, one can only assume Gorgie road.

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On 08/12/2018 at 14:53, weegienative said:

The lowland league is a national completion and not regionally separated in terms of ref appointments. So refs and assistants from all over are appointed to the games.

The fact it was 3 years ago is actually more relevant to the current lack of East coast refs in the senior game. It may have resulted in a recruitment drive to get new refs in, hence we see the games this season being better covered. The refs from 3 seasons ago would be the ones eligible for promotion potentially to the seniors now. 

Of your stats above, what is the % of games in the west premier without ARs? 

The east region has gone from 4 divisions to 3 (of 12 teams) this season meaning only 6 games need covered with ARs this year. Compared to the west which has gone from 5 to 4 divisions of 16 teams, meaning 16 games need ARs.

You're unlikely to see referees from Inverness or Aberdeen cover Lowland League games and vice-versa with the HL though. Last weekend the Gretna, Edusport (Annan) and Stirling Uni games were covered by referees from the west, the rest from the east - makes sense not to have referees travelling miles at a regional level.

The post from three years ago was also early in the season and as mentioned in the thread, women's games would have taken some ARs (summer season).

The West Premiership games all have ARs, and some/most Championship games as well.

Anyway, for sake of completeness - here's the games that have ARs this week:

SPFL, HL and LL (21, 9, 7)

12/17 East of Scotland + 1/1 South Challenge Cup

3/7 South of Scotland

4/4 East Superleague + 1/3 Fife and Lothians Cup

8/8 West Premiership, 7/8 West Championship

0/7 North Superleague

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And another point I made last week. Look at the media hysteria following morelos' goal at tynecastle.

The onside goal wrongly flagged off yesterday has received next to no coverage.

And you think he media try to help us? Maybe one team from Glasgow but certainly not us.

 

It’s normal that a match winning goal that shouldn’t have stood gets more publicity. You can have multiple goals wrongly chalked off in games, you can’t say they cost your team points because if it were allowed to stand it would’ve changed the course of the game and no one knows how it would’ve evolved thereafter. It’s unfortunate when this occurs but it doesn’t determine anything about the outcome of the game.

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9 hours ago, Drew Brees said:

 

It’s normal that a match winning goal that shouldn’t have stood gets more publicity. You can have multiple goals wrongly chalked off in games, you can’t say they cost your team points because if it were allowed to stand it would’ve changed the course of the game and no one knows how it would’ve evolved thereafter. It’s unfortunate when this occurs but it doesn’t determine anything about the outcome of the game.

I think a goal to go 2-1 up against 10 men would have had a pretty big determination of the outcome of the game, tbf.

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