Auld Heid Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 If you talk to friends, folk in the High Street who never go to games or have only been to Junior Cup finals and say "hey, we're in the final of the South Challenge Cup" they'll shrug. If you say "hey, we're in the final of the Junior Cup" they'll ask for details of the buses and they'll decorate the shop windows. The three times I've seen Rose win the Junior Cup have been brilliant days in the town, with an open top bus ride along a closed-off High Street and thousands celebrating, packing out the pubs. There's no chance any of that would happen for the South Challenge Cup, and no amount of explaining that it's basically the same, but with even more good teams in it, would make any difference. Football, especially at non-league level, is all about community and history, and you dick about with it at your peril. I was strongly in favour of Rose making the jump and the Junior Cup was never going to make much difference in deciding what would be best for the club. But huge efforts should be made by non-league football's officialdom to get the Junior Cup opened up to all non-league senior and juniors, even if the HL and the NCL decline the invite, because it's a very special competition. It is, because people have it in their minds that it is.Linlithgow were a junior club for over 100 years - a helluva lot of tradition.This ended in a feisty meeting and after passionate debate a healthy majority (rightly) voted in favour of moving.Unfortunately for many that discussion was their only opportunity to discuss - not on social media etc. So they abstained. Their votes wouldn't have changed the outcome.Since then a lot of negative sayers continue to dwell on the past. The positives of moving aren't being sold of the move so for me work is required to reach out.In a transition season we haven't won many big cup asks - so that's not help generate interest. The SJFA missed a trick to lead this level of football forwards within their existing national system including the Junior Cup (A massive loss). Instead they sat back and clubs jumped ship to the EoS and we are where we are.So in conclusion the right move but more work required to involve the town and put the Rose back as a focal point in the town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 We managed it twice, first time was something I thought I'd never see and to manage it again was unbelievable. Memory serves me right there was around 8.000 at the first game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Real buzz about the town and club on both occasions as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCamelonfan Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: Basically agree but at the same time I think we also have to acknowledge that the Junior Cup isn't what it used to be. Thirty to forty years ago you could still get 10,000+ at a senior ground for the semis and there was a lot of variety in who was making it to the last 8. Now you are lucky if it's half that for the final and far fewer clubs enter the competition with a realistic hope of going all the way to the final in an Ormiston Primrose, Darvel or Stonehouse Violet sort of way. Someone on junior page getting slated for saying the game is up with only Lochee and rosyth through to last 16. Outside bet on carnoustie and thornton making it through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 In my view it is high time the SFA step up the Pyramid negotiations with a mandate to re-package the Junior Cup as the "Junior Heritage Cup" and make it open to all Junior (ex? from 2019/20) and Senior Non League Clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 25 clubs left the Junior Cup behind this season, from a personal perspective it's not a big miss, it's a competition that once in a while brings a good day out but which probably costs the club money unless you get a big draw. It's more of a loss to those that have won it or have a genuine chance of winning it, to the rest? meh. I do want to see some form of wider national competition eventually for all clubs, but one which doesn't have the potential of clubs losing money, and which doesn't drive a hole right through the middle of your season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo'ness Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 27 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: 25 clubs left the Junior Cup behind this season, from a personal perspective it's not a big miss, it's a competition that once in a while brings a good day out but which probably costs the club money unless you get a big draw. It's more of a loss to those that have won it or have a genuine chance of winning it, to the rest? meh. I do want to see some form of wider national competition eventually for all clubs, but one which doesn't have the potential of clubs losing money, and which doesn't drive a hole right through the middle of your season. My one bugbear this season is that the cups do lose your club money, unless you are drawn at home. The gate money is kept by the home sides and the away club has to pay for one of the linos too. However that can be reviewed at season's end and apart from that I'm enjoying the experience. Last season, we had seven trips to Tayside, certainly happy that our longest trip this year was to Eyemouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said: My one bugbear this season is that the cups do lose your club money, unless you are drawn at home. The gate money is kept by the home sides and the away club has to pay for one of the linos too. However that can be reviewed at season's end and apart from that I'm enjoying the experience. Last season, we had seven trips to Tayside, certainly happy that our longest trip this year was to Eyemouth. The cups are just treated as league games as far as gate money is concerned, and there is also a fund to help costs towards buses for longer trips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Heid Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 25 clubs left the Junior Cup behind this season, from a personal perspective it's not a big miss, it's a competition that once in a while brings a good day out but which probably costs the club money unless you get a big draw. It's more of a loss to those that have won it or have a genuine chance of winning it, to the rest? meh. I do want to see some form of wider national competition eventually for all clubs, but one which doesn't have the potential of clubs losing money, and which doesn't drive a hole right through the middle of your season.Because you seldom enjoyed a run. The junior club was to many the highlight of their season because it brought opportunity to find your level (sound familar) in the whole of junior Scotland. The EoS appeals to you largely because it's more local and cutting down on travel. With an outside chance you snag a licence and entry to the financial benefits of the Scottish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Because you seldom enjoyed a run. The junior club was to many the highlight of their season because it brought opportunity to find your level (sound familar) in the whole of junior Scotland. The EoS appeals to you largely because it's more local and cutting down on travel. With an outside chance you snag a licence and entry to the financial benefits of the Scottish.That's what I said, for most clubs its pretty meh because it can be more of a financial burden than a boost, it could also severely disrupt your season with postponments and replays. You may not appreciate that from your lofty heights, but it was the reality of it.Not sure where you came to the assumption about local travel, that's not the case at all, in fact it's the exact opposite, and your comment re Licence is also rather odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 2 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said: Exactly what I said tradition. But if we had a non league trophy and it wasn't called the junior cup howon't is it any different from the south challenge cup. Because there have always been loads of trophies in Junior football and the only one that captures the imagination of those outside the immediate fanbases is the Junior Cup. It's the only competition name the public recognises. Maybe in a brave new world with all the seniors and juniors together there would be an opportunity, with the right promotion, for a Scottish FA Vase. But the "South Challenge Cup" isn't a great name, and it's obviously a regional tournament. 2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said: Basically agree but at the same time I think we also have to acknowledge that the Junior Cup isn't what it used to be. Thirty to forty years ago you could still get 10,000+ at a senior ground for the semis and there was a lot of variety in who was making it to the last 8. Now you are lucky if it's half that for the final and far fewer clubs enter the competition with a realistic hope of going all the way to the final in an Ormiston Primrose, Darvel or Stonehouse Violet sort of way. It's not what it used to be, but it's still by far the biggest match in Scotland every season outside the top two leagues and the cups for league clubs. For clubs with average attendances around 400, that should never be underestimated. If Rose made the final again I'm sure there would be over 5,000 travelling from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Auld Heid said: Linlithgow were a junior club for over 100 years - a helluva lot of tradition. This ended in a feisty meeting and after passionate debate a healthy majority (rightly) voted in favour of moving. Unfortunately for many that discussion was their only opportunity to discuss - not on social media etc. So they abstained. Their votes wouldn't have changed the outcome. Since then a lot of negative sayers continue to dwell on the past. The positives of moving aren't being sold of the move so for me work is required to reach out. In a transition season we haven't won many big cup asks - so that's not help generate interest. The SJFA missed a trick to lead this level of football forwards within their existing national system including the Junior Cup (A massive loss). Instead they sat back and clubs jumped ship to the EoS and we are where we are. So in conclusion the right move but more work required to involve the town and put the Rose back as a focal point in the town. Agreed on all points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo'ness Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 49 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: The cups are just treated as league games as far as gate money is concerned, and there is also a fund to help costs towards buses for longer trips. A ridiculous state of affairs, I'm sure you would agree. Cup competitions anywhere else divide the gate. Common sense. The luck of the draw should mean you only get ground advantage, not gate money advantage too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 A ridiculous state of affairs, I'm sure you would agree. Cup competitions anywhere else divide the gate. Common sense. The luck of the draw should mean you only get ground advantage, not gate money advantage too.I guess it benefits the bigger clubs who don't need to share half the gate with the likes of us, but in the great scheme of things I'm not too fussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz5 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Personally I'm with Burnie on this one. In over a decade in the junior game as a player, then a bit more as a coach, I never cared for the junior cup. It just got in the way. I get why the clubs who were always in the mix to win it loved it, but there are far more clubs who fall into the category of "decent day out once every 5 or 6 years maybe" I would guess. I honestly don't and never have felt anything for the competition and I haven't missed it at all since moving away from the junior game nearly 8 years ago.That's just a personal thing, I only mention it because I think we have to agree that it does carry that marmite appeal, either you love it or you don't care about it, with not much in the middle. Neither side is right or wrong, but both need to be acknowledged if we are talking about it being part of the pyramid discussion in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieclub78 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 I believe we at Blackburn United made the correct decision at the right time to move to the East of Scotland FA & into senior non league football. Will we be one of the so called clubs that find our level? We will continue to look to build our club on field and off believing we can reach the top, that's the only level we will aim for. Part of our ambition is to be an SFA licenced club & play in the Scottish Cup. All of which takes hard work, commitment and belief, as did the hard work, commitment and belief by so many at our whole community club over many years to get our whole club to where it is now and we will continue to progress just like the East of Scotland Leagues & Cups, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo'ness Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 37 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: 45 minutes ago, Jambo said: A ridiculous state of affairs, I'm sure you would agree. Cup competitions anywhere else divide the gate. Common sense. The luck of the draw should mean you only get ground advantage, not gate money advantage too. I guess it benefits the bigger clubs who don't need to share half the gate with the likes of us, but in the great scheme of things I'm not too fussed. Of course you're not fussed. It's affecting your club.. We have had 5 straight away cup-ties since the beginning of September. In no way is it right that you can be penalised for being successful in cup-ties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Of course you're not fussed. It's affecting your club.. We have had 5 straight away cup-ties since the beginning of September. In no way is it right that you can be penalised for being successful in cup-ties.Your issue then is with fixtures, not with the concept of home clubs keeping all the gate money which is swings and roundabouts really. Your the first person I've heard complain about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo'ness Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Burnie_man said: 4 minutes ago, Jambo said: Of course you're not fussed. It's affecting your club.. We have had 5 straight away cup-ties since the beginning of September. In no way is it right that you can be penalised for being successful in cup-ties. Your issue then is with fixtures, not with the concept of home clubs keeping all the gate money which is swings and roundabouts really. Your the first person I've heard complain about it. No, my issue is with clubs keeping cup gate money. I merely illustrated how many recent cup ties we have had that have, effectively, cost us money. As for swings and roundabouts, really? Even you don't really believe that. As for being the first to complain, does it mean I'm wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 No, my issue is with clubs keeping cup gate money. I merely illustrated how many recent cup ties we have had that have, effectively, cost us money. As for swings and roundabouts, really? Even you don't really believe that. As for being the first to complain, does it mean I'm wrong?As I say, I'm not fussed and I've not encountered anyone who is, and yes it's swings and roundabouts.If your club feel strongly about it they know what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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