East of scotland vs juniors

[HibeeJibee]

2 hours ago, GordonS said:

I went to Leith v Oakley, I think it was either the first league game of the season or the first group matches. I thought Leith would be stronger than Oakley, but in fact Oakley were by far the better side. Leith were more organised at the back and held their shape better, but they were toothless going forward. Oakley on the other hand were much more creative and flexible, and won far more easily than the scoreline suggested.

From that I assumed that it would be a bloodbath for the older EoS members, but actually things have stabilised. Leith are now well ahead of Oakley in their conference. Maybe the game I saw was a one-off, maybe Leith learned to adapt to the different style of play, and maybe Oakley have tanked since. Further research is required... 

They're not a neutral source nor an objective one, but... there were a number of articles in the local papers in the autumn quoting managers of old EOSL teams saying their sides had struggled to deal with the hustle and physicality of the old East Junior teams and it was taking a while to adapt. Leith's manager was certainly one and I think Heriot-Watt Uni's was another (although in their case the early season results are sometimes a bit weak anyway due to falling outside term-time then trying to blood new first years).

Correlation is not cause - but you've certainly seen a rallying in league position from many of the old EOSL teams since then but interestingly Peebles (often seen as having those very characteristics) who were running mid-conference have now gone the opposite way.


Another indication of this is to look at the number of instances of old East Junior teams, except the Superleague and Musselburgh, beating old EOSL and even LL teams - clearly the monthly rate has tumbled:
 

Quote

July/August (28)
Burntisland 0-3 Dunipace
Coldstream 3-1 Haddington, Dalkeith 8-1 Coldstream, Coldstream 0-3 Arniston, Craigroyston 4-0 Coldstream
Eyemouth 1-7 Edinburgh Utd, Dunbar 3-0 Eyemouth, Crossgates 9-0 Eyemouth, Eyemouth 0-5 Dunipace
Tranent 6-1 Hawick, Hawick 2-7 Blackburn, Easthouses 1-0 Hawick
Dalkeith 1-0 Heriot-Watt Uni, Heriot-Watt Uni 2-4 Haddington, Craigroyston 1-0 Heriot-Watt Uni
Leith 1-2 Oakley, Dalkeith 1-0 Leith
Ormiston 0-2 Easthouses, Ormiston 1-3 Haddington
Peebles 1-6 St Andrews, Arniston 3-0 Peebles
Dunipace 3-1 Preston
Easthouses 11-1 Tweedmouth, Tweedmouth 0-8 Dunbar, Tweedmouth 0-4 Blackburn
St Andrews 4-1 Tynecastle
Gala 2-4 Tranent
Oakley 4-3 Vale of Leithen

September (3)
Dunbar 6-0 Hawick
LTHV 0-1 Haddington
Peebles 2-3 Dunipace

October (12)
Tranent 7-0 Burntisland, Crossgates 2-1 Burntisland
Dunbar 5-0 Coldstream
Dalkeith 6-0 Eyemouth, Tranent 11-1 Eyemouth, Tranent 15-2 Eyemouth, Eyemouth 0-8 Crossgates
Heriot-Watt Uni 1-2 Craigroyston
Leith 1-2 Dunbar
Crossgates 2-0 LTHV
Tynecastle 0-3 Tranent, Tynecastle 1-4 Dalkeith

November (13)
Dunbar 4-1 Burntisland, Dunipace 5-0 Burntisland
Hawick 0-2 Oakley
LTHV 0-1 Dalkeith
Edinburgh Utd 4-0 Ormiston
Preston 1-2 Craigroyston
St Andrews 4-1 Stirling Uni EOS
Tweedmouth 0-2 Oakley, Tweedmouth 0-3 Easthouses, Easthouses 6-2 Tweedmouth
Crossgates 2-1 Tynecastle, Tynecastle 1-9 Haddington, Haddington 7-0 Tynecastle

December (6)
Dalkeith 3-1 Burntisland
Haddington 8-0 Eyemouth
Dunbar 2-0 Leith
Ormiston 2-5 Blackburn, Ormiston 0-4 Craigroyston
Arniston 4-2 Tweedmouth

January (8)
Burntisland 1-5 Crossgates
Crossgates 10-1 Eyemouth, Dunipace 4-0 Eyemouth
Arniston 2-1 Leith
Peebles 1-2 Dunbar
Craigroyston 3-2 Preston
Stirling Uni EOS 0-5 St Andrews
Tweedmouth 3-5 Arniston

[HibeeJibee]

Whilst I'm at it... there have been comparatively few instances of old East Junior Superleague clubs - or Musseburgh - losing to anyone but each other, or teams from higher level.

Bo'ness have lost to Tranent (twice actually). Dundonald lost to LTHV. Hill of Beath lost to Haddington. Linlithgow lost to Dunbar. Musselburgh have lost to Dalkeith and Dunbar. Newtongrange have lost to Dunipace and Easthouses. Penicuik lost to Coldstream, on penalties aet.

Sauchie alone have been so bitten more than 1-2 times... they have lost to Crossgates (twice), Tranent, St Andrews aet and LTHV.

Bonnyrigg, Broxburn, Camelon and Jeanfield have thusfar unblemished records here.

[GordonS]

3 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

They're not a neutral source nor an objective one, but... there were a number of articles in the local papers in the autumn quoting managers of old EOSL teams saying their sides had struggled to deal with the hustle and physicality of the old East Junior teams and it was taking a while to adapt. Leith's manager was certainly one and I think Heriot-Watt Uni's was another (although in their case the early season results are sometimes a bit weak anyway due to falling outside term-time then trying to blood new first years).

Correlation is not cause - but you've certainly seen a rallying in league position from many of the old EOSL teams since then but interestingly Peebles (often seen as having those very characteristics) who were running mid-conference have now gone the opposite way.


Another indication of this is to look at the number of instances of old East Junior teams, except the Superleague and Musselburgh, beating old EOSL and even LL teams - clearly the monthly rate has tumbled:
 

I should have known the line "further research is required" would have been catnip for you! Excellent post.

I wouldn't say Oakley were physical, but "hustle" is definitely right - they were quicker and busier, and snuffed out any threat Leith carried. It was interesting to see because it wasn't just two teams with different style, you could see it was teams that came from slightly different cultures. I imagine the old EoS was slower and more methodical, whereas the Juniors is more gerrintaethem, though they are at similar levels in terms of technique. 

[San Starko Rover]

I don’t think anyone is surprised the EOS former members are weaker (LTHV were expected to do better) but it’s not quite the one sided affair I thought it would be. Yes there’s been a few cricket scores but no where near as many as I’d expect. Not got the figures but how many times have teams conceded more than 5 goals?

[Marten]

11 hours ago, GordonS said:

I should have known the line "further research is required" would have been catnip for you! Excellent post.

I wouldn't say Oakley were physical, but "hustle" is definitely right - they were quicker and busier, and snuffed out any threat Leith carried. It was interesting to see because it wasn't just two teams with different style, you could see it was teams that came from slightly different cultures. I imagine the old EoS was slower and more methodical, whereas the Juniors is more gerrintaethem, though they are at similar levels in terms of technique. 

Based on what I've seen last season I would say you're largely right. When I saw LTHV play and compare that to (for example) the likes of yourselves and Lochee United, I'd say that your comparison is very fair. Probably similar levels in technique, but LTHV were slower and more methodical.

[GordonS]

46 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

I don’t think anyone is surprised the EOS former members are weaker (LTHV were expected to do better) but it’s not quite the one sided affair I thought it would be. Yes there’s been a few cricket scores but no where near as many as I’d expect. Not got the figures but how many times have teams conceded more than 5 goals?

Dunno, but Linlithgow Rose have done it 7 times so far(IIRC), 5 away from home:

Inverkeithing 0-10 LR

Ormiston 1-11 LR

LR 8-0 Craigroyston

Tranent 2-6 LR

Heriot Watt 0-6 LR

LR 6-0 Edinburgh United

Stirling Uni 1-6 LR

Of course, they weren't all against existing EoS clubs. 

[lowenan]

If you remove the bottom three in each division from that calculation, there won't be too many. 

[Gimme]

Bonnyrigg have scored more than 5 on 7 occasions this season -

Inverkeithing

Tranent

Dalkeith

Tynecastle

Eyemouth

Dunipace

Oakley

 

And scored exactly 5 on another 5 occasions against

 

Stirling Uni EOS

Hawick

Blackburn

Sauchie x 2

 

So 12 times in 26 competitive games.

[HibeeJibee]

I'll look it up just now - but I suspect we'll find the hammerings are concentrated on a few teams, and the rest fairly well distributed over old EOSL and old East Juniors.


EDIT: Remarkably some 32 of the 39 clubs have conceded 5 at least once this season... only Bonnyrigg, Broxburn, Hill of Beath, Jeanfield, Linlithgow, Newtongrange and Penicuik alone have avoided the indignity.

Of these Arniston, Blackburn, Burntisland, Craigroyston, Dunipace, Eyemouth, Hawick, Inverkeithing, Ormiston, Peebles, Stirling Uni EOS and Tweedmouth have taken doings more than 4 times - only Eyemouth, Hawick, Inverkeithing, Stirling Uni EOS and Tweedmouth more than 6 times (also worth noting almost all of Stirling's were in August).


Arniston
0-7 v Blackburn
1-14 v Tranent
0-7 v Penicuik
1-5 v Craigroyston
0-9 v Hill of Beath
1-8 v Newtongrange

Blackburn
1-5 v Tranent
2-5 v Broxburn
1-5 v Bonnyrigg
4-5 v Stirling Uni EOS
1-5 v Linlithgow

Bo'ness
0-5 v Tranent

Burntisland
0-7 v Tranent
2-5 v Coldstream
0-5 v Dunipace
0-7 v Dundonald
1-5 v Crossgates

Camelon
1-5 v Jeanfield

Coldstream
3-5 v Haddington
1-8 v Dalkeith
0-5 v Dunbar

Craigroyston
0-6 v Newtongrange
0-5 v Dundonald
0-9 v Jeanfield
0-8 v Linlithgow
0-5 v St Andrews
3-5 v Jeanfield

Crossgates
3-7 v Dundonald

Dalkeith
0-6 v Bonnyrigg

Dunbar
2-5 v Camelon
6-5 v Easthouses

Dundonald
2-5 v Broxburn

Dunipace
0-5 v Musselburgh
0-6 v Bonnyrigg
0-5 v Dundonald
1-5 v Crossgates
1-5 v Crossgates
2-5 v Bo'ness

Easthouses
0-5 v LTHV
1-7 v Newtongrange
5-6 v Dunbar
1-8 v Hill of Beath

Edinburgh Utd
2-5 v Stirling Uni EOS
1-5 v Blackburn
1-6 v Linlithgow

Eyemouth
1-7 v Edinburgh Utd
0-8 v Camelon
2-9 v Crossgates
0-5 v Dunipace
2-7 v Tynecastle
0-6 v Dundonald
0-5 v Dundonald
3-5 v Tynecastle
0-6 v Bonnyrigg
1-7 v Sauchie
0-10 v Bonnyrigg
3-6 v Dundonald
1-11 v Tranent
2-15 v Tranent
0-8 v Crossgates
1-8 v Bo'ness
0-8 v Haddington
1-10 v Crossgates

Haddington
1-5 v Penicuik
2-7 v Tranent

Hawick
1-6 v Tranent
2-7 v Blackburn
0-5 v Bonnyrigg
1-9 v Newtongrange
0-6 v Dunbar
1-6 v Leith
0-6 v Coldstream

Heriot-Watt Uni
1-5 v Linlithgow
0-6 v Linlithgow
0-7 v Broxburn

Inverkeithing
0-10 v Bonnyrigg
0-10 v Linlithgow
1-6 v Edinburgh Utd
3-5 v Preston
1-5 v Peebles
0-5 v Broxburn
0-5 v Jeanfield
2-6 v Camelon

Leith
0-5 v Musselburgh
1-9 v Newtongrange
0-8 v Penicuik
1-5 v Musselburgh

LTHV
0-5 v Bo'ness

Musselburgh
1-5 v Dalkeith
0-5 v Penicuik

Oakley
2-7 v Bonnyrigg
0-6 v Hill of Beath

Ormiston
1-5 v Burntisland
0-8 v Broxburn
1-6 v Heriot-Watt Uni
1-11 v Linlithgow
0-8 v Camelon
2-5 v Blackburn

Peebles
1-6 v St Andrews
2-6 v Penicuik
0-5 v Penicuk
1-6 v Musselburgh
0-5 v Coldstream
3-5 v Leith

Preston
1-6 v Jeanfield
0-5 v Linlithgow
3-5 v Linlithgow

Sauchie
4-5 v St Andrews
0-5 v Bonnyrigg
1-5 v Bonnyrigg

St Andrews
0-8 v Tranent
1-6 v Camelon

Stirling Uni EOS
0-5 v Bonnyrigg
3-5 v Inverkeithing
1-9 v Hill of Beath
2-6 v Camelon
1-9 v Jeanfield
0-5 v St Andrews
1-6 v Linlithgow

Tranent
1-8 v Bonnyrigg
2-6 v Linlithgow

Tweedmouth
2-11 v Easthouses
2-10 v Bo'ness
0-8 v Dunbar
0-16 v Hill of Beath
0-5 v Newtongrange
0-9 v Penicuik
2-6 v Easthouses
3-5 v Arniston

Tynecastle
1-13 v Bonnyrigg
1-9 v Haddington
2-5 v Bo'ness
0-7 v Haddington

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

I'll look it up just now...

Great work again.

I thought Inverkeithing might have had more after a tough start, though I see that they've got Linlithgow, Broxburn and Camelon in their next three games. 

[lowenan]

2-5, 3-5 and especially 4-5, are just high scoring games. It's a lot worse if you lose 0-5, 1-6, 2-7 or by an even larger margin.

[Auld Heid]

I'll look it up just now - but I suspect we'll find the hammerings are concentrated on a few teams, and the rest fairly well distributed over old EOSL and old East Juniors.


EDIT: Remarkably some 32 of the 39 clubs have conceded 5 at least once this season... only Bonnyrigg, Broxburn, Hill of Beath, Jeanfield, Linlithgow, Newtongrange and Penicuik alone have avoided the indignity.

Of these Arniston, Blackburn, Burntisland, Craigroyston, Dunipace, Eyemouth, Hawick, Inverkeithing, Ormiston, Peebles, Stirling Uni EOS and Tweedmouth have taken doings more than 4 times - only Eyemouth, Hawick, Inverkeithing, Stirling Uni EOS and Tweedmouth more than 6 times (also worth noting almost all of Stirling's were in August).


Arniston
0-7 v Blackburn
1-14 v Tranent
0-7 v Penicuik
1-5 v Craigroyston
0-9 v Hill of Beath
1-8 v Newtongrange

Blackburn
1-5 v Tranent
2-5 v Broxburn
1-5 v Bonnyrigg
4-5 v Stirling Uni EOS
1-5 v Linlithgow

Bo'ness
0-5 v Tranent

Burntisland
0-7 v Tranent
2-5 v Coldstream
0-5 v Dunipace
0-7 v Dundonald
1-5 v Crossgates

Camelon
1-5 v Jeanfield

Coldstream
3-5 v Haddington
1-8 v Dalkeith
0-5 v Dunbar

Craigroyston
0-6 v Newtongrange
0-5 v Dundonald
0-9 v Jeanfield
0-8 v Linlithgow
0-5 v St Andrews
3-5 v Jeanfield

Crossgates
3-7 v Dundonald

Dalkeith
0-6 v Bonnyrigg

Dunbar
2-5 v Camelon
6-5 v Easthouses

Dundonald
2-5 v Broxburn

Dunipace
0-5 v Musselburgh
0-6 v Bonnyrigg
0-5 v Dundonald
1-5 v Crossgates
1-5 v Crossgates
2-5 v Bo'ness

Easthouses
0-5 v LTHV
1-7 v Newtongrange
5-6 v Dunbar
1-8 v Hill of Beath

Edinburgh Utd
2-5 v Stirling Uni EOS
1-5 v Blackburn
1-6 v Linlithgow

Eyemouth
1-7 v Edinburgh Utd
0-8 v Camelon
2-9 v Crossgates
0-5 v Dunipace
2-7 v Tynecastle
0-6 v Dundonald
0-5 v Dundonald
3-5 v Tynecastle
0-6 v Bonnyrigg
1-7 v Sauchie
0-10 v Bonnyrigg
3-6 v Dundonald
1-11 v Tranent
2-15 v Tranent
0-8 v Crossgates
1-8 v Bo'ness
0-8 v Haddington
1-10 v Crossgates

Haddington
1-5 v Penicuik
2-7 v Tranent

Hawick
1-6 v Tranent
2-7 v Blackburn
0-5 v Bonnyrigg
1-9 v Newtongrange
0-6 v Dunbar
1-6 v Leith
0-6 v Coldstream

Heriot-Watt Uni
1-5 v Linlithgow
0-6 v Linlithgow
0-7 v Broxburn

Inverkeithing
0-10 v Bonnyrigg
0-10 v Linlithgow
1-6 v Edinburgh Utd
3-5 v Preston
1-5 v Peebles
0-5 v Broxburn
0-5 v Jeanfield
2-6 v Camelon

Leith
0-5 v Musselburgh
1-9 v Newtongrange
0-8 v Penicuik
1-5 v Musselburgh

LTHV
0-5 v Bo'ness

Musselburgh
1-5 v Dalkeith
0-5 v Penicuik

Oakley
2-7 v Bonnyrigg
0-6 v Hill of Beath

Ormiston
1-5 v Burntisland
0-8 v Broxburn
1-6 v Heriot-Watt Uni
1-11 v Linlithgow
0-8 v Camelon
2-5 v Blackburn

Peebles
1-6 v St Andrews
2-6 v Penicuik
0-5 v Penicuk
1-6 v Musselburgh
0-5 v Coldstream
3-5 v Leith

Preston
1-6 v Jeanfield
0-5 v Linlithgow
3-5 v Linlithgow

Sauchie
4-5 v St Andrews
0-5 v Bonnyrigg
1-5 v Bonnyrigg

St Andrews
0-8 v Tranent
1-6 v Camelon

Stirling Uni EOS
0-5 v Bonnyrigg
3-5 v Inverkeithing
1-9 v Hill of Beath
2-6 v Camelon
1-9 v Jeanfield
0-5 v St Andrews
1-6 v Linlithgow

Tranent
1-8 v Bonnyrigg
2-6 v Linlithgow

Tweedmouth
2-11 v Easthouses
2-10 v Bo'ness
0-8 v Dunbar
0-16 v Hill of Beath
0-5 v Newtongrange
0-9 v Penicuik
2-6 v Easthouses
3-5 v Arniston

Tynecastle
1-13 v Bonnyrigg
1-9 v Haddington
2-5 v Bo'ness
0-7 v Haddington

Linlithgow lost 5 v East Stirling

[HibeeJibee]

4 hours ago, Auld Heid said:

Linlithgow lost 5 v East Stirling

I was only considering results between EOSL clubs.

If you want to consider results with clubs from other leagues you can add Edinburgh City 7-0 LTHV (EOS Cup 2017-18); Kelty 6-0 Dalkeith and Kelty 8-0 Edinburgh Utd, Uni of Stirling 5-0 Dunbar (all EOS Qualifying Cup); Brora 6-0 Coldstream (Scottish Cup); East Kilbride 5-0 Preston, East Stirlingshire 5-1 Linlithgow (both South Challenge Cup).

Those seem to say what we'd expect i.e. a mid-table EOSL team can come off badly against HL/LL teams - albeit 'Shire v Rose is more surprising.

On the credit side: Coldstream 5-0 Newton Stewart, Edinburgh Utd 5-1 Mid Annandale, Abbey Vale 0-5 Broxburn, Dumfries YMCA 0-10 Tynecastle, Nithsdale 2-11 Penicuik.

They seem to say EOSL can often thrash SOSL.

 

14 hours ago, lowenan said:

2-5, 3-5 and especially 4-5, are just high scoring games. It's a lot worse if you lose 0-5, 1-6, 2-7 or by an even larger margin.

Special mention here for Dunbar who actually appear on the list for a game they won! In the League Cup Preliminary in September they prevailed 6-5 aet at Easthouses.

[Cyril]

9 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

I was only considering results between EOSL clubs.

If you want to consider results with clubs from other leagues you can add Edinburgh City 7-0 LTHV (EOS Cup 2017-18); Kelty 6-0 Dalkeith and Kelty 8-0 Edinburgh Utd, Uni of Stirling 5-0 Dunbar (all EOS Qualifying Cup); Brora 6-0 Coldstream (Scottish Cup); East Kilbride 5-0 Preston, East Stirlingshire 5-1 Linlithgow (both South Challenge Cup).

Those seem to say what we'd expect i.e. a mid-table EOSL team can come off badly against HL/LL teams - albeit 'Shire v Rose is more surprising.

On the credit side: Coldstream 5-0 Newton Stewart, Edinburgh Utd 5-1 Mid Annandale, Abbey Vale 0-5 Broxburn, Dumfries YMCA 0-10 Tynecastle, Nithsdale 2-11 Penicuik.

They seem to say EOSL can often thrash SOSL.

 

Special mention here for Dunbar who actually appear on the list for a game they won! In the League Cup Preliminary in September they prevailed 6-5 aet at Easthouses.

There have been several lowland league teams knocked out cups by EOS sides