"Contracts" In Junior Football

[RWcoach]

Looking for a little guidance around Junior contracts as I am interested in how it applies elsewhere in the game.

My main query is are they any different to what is signed as a professional deal? I was led to believe you van only sign as an amateur or as a professional and if you sign as a professional, you must be paid minimum wage, be subject to tax etc etc etc.

I was also under the impression that ANY payment made for a football reason (including goal or appearance bonuses) means the player must be signed as a professional. 

A little help around how the signing process in Juniors would be helpful. Happy to take the chat into DMs if people don't want to speak openly as well. 

[Talbot 1978]

Bul2 should be in a position to help

[RWcoach]

Just now, Talbot 1978 said:

Bul2 should be in a position to help

About greeting after working my way through that thread.

[Talbot 1978]

About greeting after working my way through that thread.

🤣🤣

[Brig O'Lea]

On 10/22/2018 at 12:34, RWcoach said:

Looking for a little guidance around Junior contracts as I am interested in how it applies elsewhere in the game.

My main query is are they any different to what is signed as a professional deal? I was led to believe you van only sign as an amateur or as a professional and if you sign as a professional, you must be paid minimum wage, be subject to tax etc etc etc.

 

There is a third status, professional non-contract.  It is what it sounds like, a pro who is not on a contract and therefore receives no wages.

Typically it happens when you sign a player who was previously on a contract at some time earlier in his career, or had been registered with a senior club earlier in his career.  He retains his professional status unless he's happy to go amateur, in which case you need to reinstate him to amateur status.

Anyway, if not reinstated to amateur, he retains his professional status but you can register him as a pro non-contract if you are not giving him a contract.

 

 

[RWcoach]

1 hour ago, Brig O'Lea said:

There is a third status, professional non-contract.  It is what it sounds like, a pro who is not on a contract and therefore receives no wages.

Typically it happens when you sign a player who was previously on a contract at some time earlier in his career, or had been registered with a senior club earlier in his career.  He retains his professional status unless he's happy to go amateur, in which case you need to reinstate him to amateur status.

Anyway, if not reinstated to amateur, he retains his professional status but you can register him as a pro non-contract if you are not giving him a contract.

 

 

Thanks. 

So as I understand it that that player would not be paid for his football duties.

Which brings me to my next question, if you sign a player and pay them you need to abide by minimum wage, sick pay, national insurance etc etc etc.  Is this regulated and checked within the Junior set up as any player signed as a pro at your club effectively turns your club to Professional status. 

Or, as I assume it actually is, everything is kept hush hush and players are paid by "expenses" which gets round having to pay a minimum wage and all the other bits and pieces meaning players can actually walk away, get themselves deregistered with the SFA and go where they like?

 

[parsforlife]

Thanks. 
So as I understand it that that player would not be paid for his football duties.
Which brings me to my next question, if you sign a player and pay them you need to abide by minimum wage, sick pay, national insurance etc etc etc.  Is this regulated and checked within the Junior set up as any player signed as a pro at your club effectively turns your club to Professional status. 
Or, as I assume it actually is, everything is kept hush hush and players are paid by "expenses" which gets round having to pay a minimum wage and all the other bits and pieces meaning players can actually walk away, get themselves deregistered with the SFA and go where they like?
 

Many will be contract professionals.(even on £1 a week deals that go around at times)

This in theory means they can't just walk and sign for another club at a time of their choosing.

However if a player isn't receiving all the benefits you list then they can quite easily cite breach of contract and walk.

[cmontheloknow]

15 minutes ago, RWcoach said:

Thanks. 

So as I understand it that that player would not be paid for his football duties.

Which brings me to my next question, if you sign a player and pay them you need to abide by minimum wage, sick pay, national insurance etc etc etc.  Is this regulated and checked within the Junior set up as any player signed as a pro at your club effectively turns your club to Professional status. 

Or, as I assume it actually is, everything is kept hush hush and players are paid by "expenses" which gets round having to pay a minimum wage and all the other bits and pieces meaning players can actually walk away, get themselves deregistered with the SFA and go where they like?

 

I would not expect it to be as haphazard as your final sentence would suggest. PAYE compliance is certainly in place and has been since early 00s at some clubs when it was rolled out.

[qwerty]

Why don't you just contact SFA/SJFA and they will be able to give you an accurate explanation .

[santheman]

Most Professional Non Contract and Amateur Contract players will receive expenses only (at least in theory) which should only cover travel to and from away games, not home games or training which are both classed as their place of work.

HMRC guidelines are that a record of opening /closing mileage and car reg no should be held for inspection by them but in reality this is very unlikely to happen.

Professional Contract players are paid weekly/monthly/ 1 off lump sums whatever they agree with their club should have tax/NI deducted at scource (a problem for 1 off payments). at the moment HMRC to my knowledge are not checking that minimum wage and all the other employer liabilities like sick pay etc  are being applied in the Juniors but this will come, especially if we enter the Senior set up.

A player who is not being paid acccording to his contract has the option to appeal to the SJFA to have his contract terminated but I cannot recall anyone who has ever been successful in this as the clubs generally have a reason for not paying wages (usually failing to turn up to training) so you have a Mexican stand off unless another club is willing to come in and pay a transfer fee otherwise the player has 2 options. Wait until his contract ends and he becomes a free agent OR  give notice that he intends to revert to Amateur status  and play for an Amateur team.

That is my understanding of how it works from my time around 7/8 years ago but I,m sure if anything has changed someone will correct any errors or update any changes

[Sancho Panza]

not heard of minimum wage being applied.

estimate training two nights x 1.5 hrs, match day 4 hrs, 7hrs total x £7.83= £54.81 per player. x squad of 18= £986 per week!! how many clubs could afford that ??

 

should add under 20's is around £6.00 I think.

[larky9]

not heard of minimum wage being applied.
estimate training two nights x 1.5 hrs, match day 4 hrs, 7hrs total x £7.83= £54.81 per player. x squad of 18= £986 per week!! how many clubs could afford that ??
 
should add under 20's is around £6.00 I think.

If the minimum wage was enforced most junior clubs would go to the wall

[Black Pennel]

Think the answer should probably depend on which department of the Inland Revenue, or DWP, the OP works ?

[ex-german exile]

not heard of minimum wage being applied.
estimate training two nights x 1.5 hrs, match day 4 hrs, 7hrs total x £7.83= £54.81 per player. x squad of 18= £986 per week!! how many clubs could afford that ??
 
should add under 20's is around £6.00 I think.

You want to get the supervisor from my first job to revise your estimated working hours [emoji849]
We didn't get paid for changing into our work clothes or for breaks so that takes match day down to 90 minutes. I'm sure he could have found a way around paying for training too [emoji12] [emoji12] [emoji12]

[SaltyTON]

I would think minimum wage, unless amateur, would only cover the match period. They could easily argue that training was the players' personal choice, as I've heard there are junior players that don't train at all with their club.

A lifeguard, for example, wouldn't get paid for going to the gym to keep in shape. 

[parsforlife]

2 hours ago, SaltyTON said:

I would think minimum wage, unless amateur, would only cover the match period. They could easily argue that training was the players' personal choice, as I've heard there are junior players that don't train at all with their club.

A lifeguard, for example, wouldn't get paid for going to the gym to keep in shape. 

well no, no they can't.

 

https://www.gov.uk/minimum-wage-different-types-work

What counts as working time

For all types of work, include time spent:

• at work and required to be working, or on standby near the workplace (but don’t include rest breaks that are taken)
• not working because of machine breakdown, but kept at the workplace
• waiting to collect goods, meet someone for work or start a job
• travelling in connection with work, including travelling from one work assignment to another
• training or travelling to training
• at work and under certain work-related responsibilities even when workers are allowed to sleep (whether or not a place to sleep is provided)

 

obviously if a player doesn't attend sessions then those won't be counted as working hours.

[SaltyTON]

You'd be surprised at how little training footballers do; the juniors could easily get away with paying 50 quid a week. Most of them though will be "amateur" in name only (like Queen's Park).

[parsforlife]

1 hour ago, SaltyTON said:

You'd be surprised at how little training footballers do; the juniors could easily get away with paying 50 quid a week. Most of them though will be "amateur" in name only (like Queen's Park).

The amount of training is a completely different factor. what is clear is that it does count as worked time.

 

2 x 90 sessions + 4 hours for match + away travel would be the absolute minimum.  Probably need to make it 2 hour average training to cover any extra sessions or over-runs.

~9/10 hours a week + any long distance matches involving extra pay.  £70 p/w would be pushing your luck.

 

£50 doesn't even cover 6.5 hours  for over 25's.  

 

 

[SaltyTON]

I get £30 a game. My next game is in Coylton; so with the paperwork, etc, that wouldn't meet minimum wage (I'm 34, I think) if you counted the travel (that's 34 mins each way according to Google).

The minimum wage and self-employment are a very grey area still; call the players self-employed, therefore training is their responsibility although tax deductible. There are always ways around the minimum wage. For example, delivery drivers on a quiet night get nowhere near the minimum wage!

[cmontheloknow]

4 hours ago, SaltyTON said:

I get £30 a game. My next game is in Coylton; so with the paperwork, etc, that wouldn't meet minimum wage (I'm 34, I think) if you counted the travel (that's 34 mins each way according to Google).

The minimum wage and self-employment are a very grey area still; call the players self-employed, therefore training is their responsibility although tax deductible. There are always ways around the minimum wage. For example, delivery drivers on a quiet night get nowhere near the minimum wage!

But Junior clubs are required to be PAYE complaint therefore players are not self-employed.