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The secretary of state for Scotland.


SandyCromarty

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1 hour ago, tirso said:

what a tinpot country we are.

Absolute cringe for folk that query whether we should be promoting Scotland abroad whether the actual First Minister (For fox sake) of any stripe or the Secretary of State.

Cringe for anyone too that thinks promoting Scotland is not important, even more so as part of the UK.  Tinpot doesn't even cover it.

The thread is aimed at the fool that is the Secretary of State for Scotland and not at the First Minister.

Absolutely nothing wrong with promoting Scotland and Nicola having a high profile as FM is the right person to do it,  the embarrassment here is that the fool is a total nonentity who when  interviewed live comes across as a jittery hamster desperately looking for some where he can scurry off to and hide, and with that sort of demeanor it is highly unlikely he is capable of enthralling foreign audiences fer fecksake.

To  travel to Paraguay appears to me nothing more than a feckin jolly and no more unless he was trying to convert the locals to the joy's of haggis and porridge.

I have traveled to and worked and lived in more countries than I can remember and I can assure you that we are never regarded as a "tinpot" country, we have a very high profile and known for our forthright attitude and honesty in the workplace and socially.

In fact by your post which denigrates our great country by describing it as "tinpot"and then  defending Fluffy I have no hesitation in describing you as a Bampot. 

Edited by SandyCromarty
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On 4/12/2019 at 18:05, SandyCromarty said:

I have traveled to and worked and lived in more countries than I can remember and I can assure you that we are never regarded as a "tinpot" country, we have a very high profile and known for our forthright attitude and honesty in the workplace and socially.

In fact by your post which denigrates our great country by describing it as "tinpot"and then  defending Fluffy I have no hesitation in describing you as a Bampot. 

as have I.  And I'm referring to the thousands of people in our own land who denigrate any politician (FM or SoS) that goes abroad to promote it.  It's insane we even discuss it.  It's entirely accurate to describe that as tinpot.

We have an undeserved terrible reputation for food, binge drinking and generally being regarded as poor.  I'd sugar coat it but that's the fact.  Yes - we also have a reasonable reputation for being "friendly" mostly through alcohol.  We are the worst people in the world at promoting ourselves as a modern nation with great food and drink.  Too many are happy to joke about the drunk Scot with a poor diet and we all laugh along.  It harms us in many ways. We have pride in all the wrong places.  I've lost count of the number of times having to explain to people that we actually have quality food.  Take them on a walk through Glasgow and you'd be forgiven for thinking our national food is Taco bell and a kebab.  

Our country has a lot to offer.  I totally agree.  I wish we could raise ourselves up a bit.

Edited by tirso
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On 4/12/2019 at 17:57, DA Baracus said:

You're missing the point massively here.

Almost certainly on purpose.

am I?  what's actually wrong with the Secretary of State for Scotland going abroad to promote Scottish things?

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5 minutes ago, tirso said:

am I?  what's actually wrong with the Secretary of State for Scotland going abroad to promote Scottish things?

Absolutely nothing beyond his own party castigating the First Minister constantly for doing the same.

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24 minutes ago, sophia said:

What an inefficient way to run our business.

Two departments duplicating is one of the first things that gets sorted as easy wins when companies bring some rational thought to processes.

 

Yep, the Scotland office performs no useful role in the governance of Scotland anymore. All of it's former areas of competence are obviously taken over by the Holyrood system, and while once you could imagine a senior Scottish MP performing an oversight role to keep the MSPs in check, nowadays even a non SNP First Minister would be looked upon by the electorate as the senior Scottish politician and to assert their authority versus that of the Westminster office. It's only real role is to act in opposition to the Holyrood system down party lines.

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19 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

The issue isn't with him going wherever to promote Scotland, the issue is he is doing this in response to SG efforts to represent Scotland abroad. He will 100% be having wee off the record "yes she's going about too but don't put any stock in what she says, we're the ones you need to deal with" chats.

 

 

I think people who Sturgeon visits will know the sort of role she actually has and what they can get out of her.

Mundell is a a bit of an odd case because you wouldn't imagine he could persuade the PM to actually do anything tangible so I don't really know what people feel they can get out of him. From reading on the UK Gov site the press releases, I get the feeling he's just a travelling salesman who is ordered around from other departments to try and sell the Innovate Projects - none of it seems to actually be strictly Scottish (so for example, he went to Latin America to talk about technological advances that have been made in agriculture; the link just being that Scotland's biggest trade export to the region is food and drink).

If I'm right, that's actually a justifiable role but he really shouldn't have the title he has. It's basically just to be a spokesperson for a few of the governments positions on Scotland and a junior minister of the department of trade.

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1 hour ago, tirso said:

am I?  what's actually wrong with the Secretary of State for Scotland going abroad to promote Scottish things?

Yes, and you've now confirmed you're doing so on purpose, i.e. you know exactly the point being made but are playing dumb/trolling.

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20 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Yes, and you've now confirmed you're doing so on purpose, i.e. you know exactly the point being made but are playing dumb/trolling.

I support independence but I understand Scotland is in the UK.  Whilst in the UK, having a cabinet secretary, if done properly can be good for Scotland.  It's someone to hold responsible for UK government actions affecting Scotland and the person who can facilitate important acts for Scotland - "made in Scotland".  See Michael Moore for the Edinburgh Agreement.  Having a cabinet secretary for Scotland is as old as the Union itself and continues the fact that this is a Union.  It's not my preferred way of doing things but if we're in the union, we should have a SoS.

If he's going round promoting Scottish goods, I have no problem with it and neither should anyone else.  

 

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40 minutes ago, harry94 said:

If I'm right, that's actually a justifiable role but he really shouldn't have the title he has. It's basically just to be a spokesperson for a few of the governments positions on Scotland and a junior minister of the department of trade.

And if they demoted the role or it didn't didn't exist the SNP would be complaining that the UK doesn't take Scotland seriously.

Edited by tirso
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7 minutes ago, tirso said:

And if they demoted the role or it didn't didn't exist the SNP would be complaining that the UK doesn't take Scotland seriously.

The role is already basically worthless. There is no line of accountability for what happens in Scotland that runs through the Office of the Secretary of State for Scotland. Once upon a time, in governments who controlled both Holyrood and Westminster it'd be possible for the SoS to appear as the senior statesman to the FM, that is also largely a thing of the past. The impact of two SNP FMs and the evolution of Holyrood over time has meant that even a notional future Labour or Tory FM would be seen to be the senior politician to the SoS, even if they happened to belong to the same party.

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10 minutes ago, renton said:

The role is already basically worthless. There is no line of accountability for what happens in Scotland that runs through the Office of the Secretary of State for Scotland. Once upon a time, in governments who controlled both Holyrood and Westminster it'd be possible for the SoS to appear as the senior statesman to the FM, that is also largely a thing of the past. The impact of two SNP FMs and the evolution of Holyrood over time has meant that even a notional future Labour or Tory FM would be seen to be the senior politician to the SoS, even if they happened to belong to the same party.

Of course the FM is ten times more senior and Scotland's proper voice.  I still think the SoS has a role though when in the UK.  That's all I'm saying.

Having a proper cabinet level spokesperson in each party (Shadowed) is worthwhile in my view.

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22 hours ago, tirso said:

I support independence but I understand Scotland is in the UK.  Whilst in the UK, having a cabinet secretary, if done properly can be good for Scotland.  It's someone to hold responsible for UK government actions affecting Scotland and the person who can facilitate important acts for Scotland - "made in Scotland".  See Michael Moore for the Edinburgh Agreement.  Having a cabinet secretary for Scotland is as old as the Union itself and continues the fact that this is a Union.  It's not my preferred way of doing things but if we're in the union, we should have a SoS.

If he's going round promoting Scottish goods, I have no problem with it and neither should anyone else.  

 

If as you point out the fool's job is promoting Scotland then why hasn't he supported the Scottish people's desire to avoid Brexit and stay in Europe!

Reason is that his total arse licking Loyalties lie with whatever he's told to do by the tories.

A Dollsheed and no friend of Scotland is what he is.

The whole secretary of state for Scotland office is outdated and superfluous, a joke costing us the taxpayers totally unnecessary expense.

Edited by SandyCromarty
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And lest we forget how he got the job,  it wasn't  because he was a great orator/statesman or a leading light in his party it was that he was the only tory MP in Scotland after an election some years back.

Now that's some qualification and how we ended up with a bewildered hamster.

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3 hours ago, SandyCromarty said:

If as you point out the fool's job is promoting Scotland then why hasn't he supported the Scottish people's desire to avoid Brexit and stay in Europe!

Reason is that his total arse licking Loyalties lie with whatever he's told to do by the tories.

A Dollsheed and no friend of Scotland is what he is.

The whole secretary of state for Scotland office is outdated and superfluous, a joke costing us the taxpayers totally unnecessary expense.

 

I wish you would refrain from using words like Mundell, Scottish Secretary and arse-licking in the same posts.

Especially when I'm eating.

 

:yucky

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And lest we forget how he got the job,  it wasn't  because he was a great orator/statesman or a leading light in his party it was that he was the only tory MP in Scotland after an election some years back.
Now that's some qualification and how we ended up with a bewildered hamster.
Get it back to when there were none.
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On 15/04/2019 at 10:39, tirso said:

I support independence but I understand Scotland is in the UK.  Whilst in the UK, having a cabinet secretary, if done properly can be good for Scotland.

I think you mean a Secretary of State being part of the Cabinet. A Cabinet Secretary is what Ministers in the Scottish Government are styled as. The Cabinet Secretary in the context of the UK Government is the Head of the Civil Service.

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It's someone to hold responsible for UK government actions affecting Scotland and the person who can facilitate important acts for Scotland - "made in Scotland".  See Michael Moore for the Edinburgh Agreement. 

The facilitative role is often an important one, and it actually continues to be at operational level. That's really what the Scotland Office/Office of the Secretary of State for Scotland does on a day-to-day basis. It's the go-between for UK Government departments and the Scottish Government unless the Cabinet Office has already stuck its oar in. The role certainly had to reinvent itself after devolution and again after the devolved administration moved to being comprised of a different party.

Speaking as someone who's worked closely with the Scotland Office in a previous role, I can tell you a lot of their job is actually fire-fighting and devolution literacy. It, and to an extent the devolution teams within specific departments with big enough devolved interests to warrant them, exist to stop fights unnecessarily being picked and to improve wider Ministerial and Civil Service literacy of the devolution settlements. It's all about stopping people inadvertently doing stupid things that failed to account for what's already in place in different parts of the UK.

The facilitation question is complicated somewhat by the fact that the responsibility is spread across several members of the UK Government for different purposes. The Office of the Advocate General, for example, does a lot of legal facilitation and has a (generally) very good relationship with the Scottish Government (the personality of the current Advocate General notwithstanding). Anything that cross-cuts multiple UK departments or which isn't "bilateral" inevitably seems to get caught up by the Cabinet Office (see e.g. the Joint Ministerial Committee meetings on Brexit powers).

Although there was undoubtedly an important role played by Michael Moore in getting to the Edinburgh Agreement, the real role there was as much having a Liberal mediating a disagreement between the Tories and the SNP. It was a party political challenge as much as an institutional one and had it been a Tory majority Government I don't think the Secretary of State would have been as prominent in those discussions.

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Having a cabinet secretary for Scotland is as old as the Union itself and continues the fact that this is a Union.  It's not my preferred way of doing things but if we're in the union, we should have a SoS.

This isn't quite right. Although there was a Secretary of State from day one, the post fell into disuse after the Jacobite uprising. The functions of the role were moved to the Secretary of State for the Home Department and the Lord Advocate (then a UK Government role, now a Scottish Government role but functionally very different) would typically exercise them on his behalf. They then created the role of Secretary for Scotland in the late 1800s but they didn't initially have the right to attend Cabinet, and there was a further gap until 1926 before it was formally restored/recreated as a full Secretary of State.

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If he's going round promoting Scottish goods, I have no problem with it and neither should anyone else.  

As the guy responsible for the consumption of about 35% of the Irn Bru purchased by the UK Parliament, I approve this message.

Edited by Ad Lib
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On 4/23/2019 at 16:43, Ad Lib said:

  This isn't quite right. Although there was a Secretary of State from day one, the post fell into disuse after the Jacobite uprising. The functions of the role were moved to the Secretary of State for the Home Department and the Lord Advocate (then a UK Government role, now a Scottish Government role but functionally very different) would typically exercise them on his behalf. They then created the role of Secretary for Scotland in the late 1800s but they didn't initially have the right to attend Cabinet, and there was a further gap until 1926 before it was formally restored/recreated as a full Secretary of State.

I do know that that prior to the 1745 Jacobite cause the English government representative here in the Highlands was Duncan Forbes of Culloden. Doing some research years ago I found the lavish grave site of his parents in the cemetary off Chapel St but the remains had been removed many years back and I never found out why or where they were re-interred.

Forbes though had far more savvy than wee Fluffy.

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