Pyramid 2019/2020

[AsimButtHitsASix]

30 minutes ago, Rooster20 said:

What I have heard is that there will be some posturing and uncertainty for the next few months

This is the only thing posted so far that I believe 100%

[GordonS]

4 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

In England the Southern League and Isthmian league have a fair degree of geographic crossover. Aside from the (fair) argument that it treats the EoS, and the clubs that moved over, like shite the differences are not irreconcilable.

EG: if the Tay remains the dividing line then East Region Junior league winners will go into a play off depending on their own geographical position. (ie Lochee would play off v North Region/North Caley winners but, say, Tayport would be up against EoS/WoS/SoS winners)

I'm all for a soft dividing line and clubs getting to choose which side they go. But here we're talking about at least 19 ERSJFA members playing south of the furthest north EOSFL member. 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

True but how long would they even want to remain in that league? The "benefits" of Junior league membership will be removed by joining the pyramid, their local games will be the the EoS (especially after this season when, you presume, the lower tiers will be regionalised)

Ye think Armadale will want to fanny about going up Tayside and Angus every fortnight instead of switching to a league that holds all their local rivals in a year or two?

[GordonS]

17 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

True but how long would they even want to remain in that league? The "benefits" of Junior league membership will be removed by joining the pyramid, their local games will be the the EoS (especially after this season when, you presume, the lower tiers will be regionalised)

Ye think Armadale will want to fanny about going up Tayside and Angus every fortnight instead of switching to a league that holds all their local rivals in a year or two?

The benefit for some would be that it's a much easier route to the promotion play-off.

As for Armadale - definitely. They've taken the severe hump at the ex-Junior splitters and regularly insult them on their social media accounts - they took a swipe at Bo'ness and Haddington today. They and all the others resolutely stayed Junior when the option to move was open to them and most of their neighbours were off, and nothing has changed - if anything, there's even less reason for them to switch now. They'll stay staunchly loyal to the grade.

[Marten]

5 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

In England the Southern League and Isthmian league have a fair degree of geographic crossover. Aside from the (fair) argument that it treats the EoS, and the clubs that moved over, like shite the differences are not irreconcilable.

EG: if the Tay remains the dividing line then East Region Junior league winners will go into a play off depending on their own geographical position. (ie Lochee would play off v North Region/North Caley winners but, say, Tayport would be up against EoS/WoS/SoS winners)

In England there is always a dividing line between the Southern/Isthmian Premier and the Southern/Isthmian First divisions. Those dividing lines are flexible though as they don't have a fixed boundary. There is not specific promotion/relegation between the different steps at that level of the game in England. Instead, they redraw the leagues based on the teams taking part that year. It's quite common for clubs to be moved across from one league to another.

[cmontheloknow]

2 hours ago, GordonS said:

The benefit for some would be that it's a much easier route to the promotion play-off.

As for Armadale - definitely. They've taken the severe hump at the ex-Junior splitters and regularly insult them on their social media accounts - they took a swipe at Bo'ness and Haddington today. They and all the others resolutely stayed Junior when the option to move was open to them and most of their neighbours were off, and nothing has changed - if anything, there's even less reason for them to switch now. They'll stay staunchly loyal to the grade.

'They' being an individual with a twitter login.

[cmontheloknow]

2 hours ago, Marten said:

In England there is always a dividing line between the Southern/Isthmian Premier and the Southern/Isthmian First divisions. Those dividing lines are flexible though as they don't have a fixed boundary. There is not specific promotion/relegation between the different steps at that level of the game in England. Instead, they redraw the leagues based on the teams taking part that year. It's quite common for clubs to be moved across from one league to another.

BUT... clubs in the West could feasibly do same with the SoS - it won't happen because of this percieved grade loyalty and the wanting to play the village rival but say Glens or Talbot jumped over and if one did it they'd trash all before them and claim a play-off spot. Something has to be put in place to stop this - strict regionalisastion being the answer. Unlike the English counterparts, the leagues we're talking about here are inferior/superior side by side.

Edited October 27, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Gingernuts]

but but but were the in the eos . were better than you. but but but the juniors are dead. all the knowitalls and fantasists telling the west clubs and ersjfa clubs they have to move are now seething. 

get it right up all tom johnston haters.  canny wait until he tells them . you made your bed you can lie in it. 

so fire away red dot brigade. because the juniors are very much alive and kicking.

 

[cmontheloknow]

27 minutes ago, Gingernuts said:

but but but were the in the eos . were better than you. but but but the juniors are dead. all the knowitalls and fantasists telling the west clubs and ersjfa clubs they have to move are now seething. 

get it right up all tom johnston haters.  canny wait until he tells them . you made your bed you can lie in it. 

so fire away red dot brigade. because the juniors are very much alive and kicking.

 

• SFA disciplinary measures
• Season running in tandem with SFA leagues
• Registrations to be in line with senior clubs (I assume this will primarly refer to lapse date for amateurs)
• Within SFA's pyramid

Long live the independent Juniors!

Edited October 27, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, Gingernuts said:

but but but were the in the eos . were better than you. but but but the juniors are dead. all the knowitalls and fantasists telling the west clubs and ersjfa clubs they have to move are now seething. 

get it right up all tom johnston haters.  canny wait until he tells them . you made your bed you can lie in it. 

so fire away red dot brigade. because the juniors are very much alive and kicking.

 

By joining the pyramid most of the issues people had with the Juniors are dead though.

[Guest]

Great input ginger into what was a reasonable debate on the pyramid and its potential future set up. What you will find is that the fantasists you speak of were fully supportive of a move that has brought around real change for non league football in Scotland, look at where we are now. It won't change anyone's perspective on the man you mention but it is positive to see he may have finally got his head out of the sand and finger out his erse and did his job on behalf of the sjfa. Which is him potentially utilising somewhere close to his roles potential. For many though this action will never cover the cracks of 15 years of inaction, don't forget the sfa want a pyramid set up and will make concessions to get folk around the table, don't expect them to roll over for a belly rub if the sjfa don't do things in the expected manner. 

I would personally love to see a free flowing pyramid from amateur level all the way to the Senior professional leagues, a structure that a team can go from bottom to top and vice versa. This is a step in the right direction. 

I cannot quite get my head around having two leagues, running at the same level, covering the same geographical area, but if this is what it takes to get a starting pyramid structure, then so be it. If the ersjfa are committed to it, then they will have to fall into line with all of the operating procedures and produces Easton long fixture lists etc anyway, so they will be run differently for a start, as will the wrsjfa. From an sfa perspective, they want a free flowing pyramid structure, this is the first step to having everyone on board, they may be making certain concessions just to get things started with a view to a complete overhaul once everyone is committed to the process.....for example the deal breaker for the juniors moving as a block may have been the ersjfa superlegue, if conceding one aspect of their plan to get everyone on board is what they have done then that is understandable. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Guest

[Burnie_man]

46 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

By joining the pyramid most of the issues people had with the Juniors are dead though.

Don't feed the Junior troll 

[Burnie_man]

28 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Great input ginger into what was a reasonable debate on the pyramid and its potential future set up. What you will find is that the fantasists you speak of were fully supportive of a move that has brought around real change for non league football in Scotland, look at where we are now. It won't change anyone's perspective on the man you mention but it is positive to see he may have finally got his head out of the sand and finger out his erse and did his job on behalf of the sjfa. Which is him potentially utilising somewhere close to his roles potential. For many though this action will never cover the cracks of 15 years of inaction, don't forget the sfa want a pyramid set up and will make concessions to get folk around the table, don't expect them to roll over for a belly rub if the sjfa don't do things in the expected manner. 

I would personally love to see a free flowing pyramid from amateur level all the way to the Senior professional leagues, a structure that a team can go from bottom to top and vice versa. This is a step in the right direction. 

I cannot quite get my head around having two leagues, running at the same level, covering the same geographical area, but if this is what it takes to get a starting pyramid structure, then so be it. If the ersjfa are committed to it, then they will have to fall into line with all of the operating procedures and produces Easton long fixture lists etc anyway, so they will be run differently for a start, as will the wrsjfa. From an sfa perspective, they want a free flowing pyramid structure, this is the first step to having everyone on board, they may be making certain concessions just to get things started with a view to a complete overhaul once everyone is committed to the process.....for example the deal breaker for the juniors moving as a block may have been the ersjfa superlegue, if conceding one aspect of their plan to get everyone on board is what they have done then that is understandable. 

As I keep pointing out this matter isn't actually decided regardless of what Maxwell thinks has been agreed. There is no consensus on the ERJFA joining the Pyramid as a separate body, as you point out it makes no logical sense and the EoS wont accept another league in their area.  There is also the Tayside issue which isn't mentioned at all, and of course the situation where clubs who made the move to the EoS could find themselves a tier below clubs in the ERJFA Superleague next season. Long way to go yet.

However, regarding the West and North joining, it's a sensible move but they will have to fall in line and mirror all rules, regulations and procedures of Senior football (which according to Maxwell's email will be discussed on 14th November) so what exactly is the point of the SJFA continuing to exist? There is none, the only possible reason is for it to run the Junior Cup for those clubs that want to enter it (if it will still exist) in which case why employ someone full time to do that? He wont have registrations to deal with, he wont have disciplinary to deal with, there will be no more re-instatements. What will he actually do?

[Burnie_man]

10 hours ago, Rooster20 said:

Take this with a grain of salt but,

What I have heard is that there will be some posturing and uncertainty for the next few months until eventually sometime before 31 of March the ERJFA and EoSFL will announce a merger of sorts in which EoS will become the sole league in tier 6 but previous ERJFA clubs will be integrated into the EoSFL league structure. That's all I have heard so not sure which ERJFA clubs will go where.

Again grain of salt as just what I've heard

I think that is what everyone wants to see.

 

[Guest]

Burne I get all that, but if we look from the SFA perspective they want a functioning pyramid, if a concession in the east is what they have to do I believe they will do it to get the sjfa in bed with us..... It doesn't mean it has to stay that way forever.... Wolf in sheep's clothes and all that ;-) 

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

I think that is what everyone wants to see.

 

I don't know how popular it would be but a Tier 6 East League made up of Top 4 from each EoS Conference and East Super League fits pretty well. With promotion to the Lowland League likely to see the EoS make a net loss of 1 club, it could mean one 5th placed team from the EoS as well.

No idea how you sort out what comes below, but that seems an easy way to do a merger from the top.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, G4Mac said:

Burne I get all that, but if we look from the SFA perspective they want a functioning pyramid, if a concession in the east is what they have to do I believe they will do it to get the sjfa in bed with us..... It doesn't mean it has to stay that way forever.... Wolf in sheep's clothes and all that ;-) 

The SFA don't really care and to be honest, don't have a full grasp of the situation.  Personally speaking for my club, having all the clubs around us playing within the Pyramid but unable to play them as they are members of a seperate league would be bad for us.  We want to play them within the same Pyramid league structure, Broxburn being unable to face Pumpherston for example makes no sense and benefits neither, same with us and Whitburn.   If we agree to that, then there is no guarantee that will ever change and we continue with an artifical divide which the Pyramid is supposed to blow away, but this time the divide goes right through West Lothian and Fife.

It needs to be oppossed in the strongest possible terms. We need to get this right straight from the start.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I don't know how popular it would be but a Tier 6 East League made up of Top 4 from each EoS Conference and East Super League fits pretty well. With promotion to the Lowland League likely to see the EoS make a net loss of 1 club, it could mean one 5th placed team from the EoS as well.

No idea how you sort out what comes below, but that seems an easy way to do a merger from the top.

True, but the top 5 are guaranteed an EoS Premier spot for next season.  Chances are however that one if not two 6th placed finishers could also be required, now you could look at it and say the top Lothians/Fife finisher in the ERJFA takes one of those spots, or the top two, in the interests of integration. That would stick in the craw of many though.

In addition, Tayside clubs can't join the EoS as the boundary currently stands. There is no indication the boundary will be changed.

[superbigal]

13 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Burne I get all that, but if we look from the SFA perspective they want a functioning pyramid, if a concession in the east is what they have to do I believe they will do it to get the sjfa in bed with us..... It doesn't mean it has to stay that way forever.... Wolf in sheep's clothes and all that ;-) 

This 100% and to be fair to Larry and co is what they have said from day 1 would happen. 

They were stating this before the last dozen or so juniors jumped ship.

Just because of TJs track record I dont think anyone believed it would happen

 

The East "region" will now have 2 out of 4 possibilities of promotion.

Absorbing the juniors into eos would give 1 out of 3

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by superbigal

[FairWeatherFan]

24 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Burne I get all that, but if we look from the SFA perspective they want a functioning pyramid, if a concession in the east is what they have to do I believe they will do it to get the sjfa in bed with us..... It doesn't mean it has to stay that way forever.... Wolf in sheep's clothes and all that ;-) 

That's probably what will happen through licencing. Bunch of clubs get licenced. SFA Scottish Cup games and perhaps a newly created SFA Cup for non-SPFL  take precedence over the SJFA Scottish Cup.  Then the SFA/Lowland League announce an expansion or restructuring of the Lowland League taking a number of the top SJFA  clubs.

With fewer top clubs in the SJFA structure to give the association credibility and the SJFA Scottish Cup restricted, there's no need for the SJFA.