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Burnie_man

Pyramid 2019/2020

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To me staying with Premier-Conferences is basically trying o appease Bathgate, Tayport, Armadale, Fauldhouse and Whitburn. Maybe Kennoway since they only joined in 2013. Everyone else is used to playing at "Tier 8".
Precisely. In the decision making process required of the current EoSFL members there should be no thought at all given to appeasing recalcitrant Junior clubs by offering, for a third season in a row, conference leagues to the potential detriment of current clubs. Particularly if some of those Junior clubs are playing the field by - according to posts on other threads - noting their interest in a possible WoSFL. I can see no compelling reason at all to go with anything other than a Tier 6/7/8 set up from next season onwards, a set up that offers more than just the one promotion spot from a Tier 7 league than would be the case should multiple conferences at Tier 7 be the format again for season 2020/21.

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While it is fair to say that teams are entitled to vote for what is best for them and not those potentially coming in, it should be remembered that his wasnt the approach by the member clubs a couple of years ago, who bent over backwards for the newcomers.

That said, I would opt against conferences, just not for the sentiments you have stated.

With all due respect, we vote for what's best for the clubs currently in the league, not for the clubs who've declined twice and might or might not apply next year.

Conferences have been great to solve a problem, but players don't like them and it's right, in my opinion, we move to a premier/first /second next year.

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24 minutes ago, TheLad said:

While it is fair to say that teams are entitled to vote for what is best for them and not those potentially coming in, it should be remembered that his wasnt the approach by the member clubs a couple of years ago, who bent over backwards for the newcomers.

That said, I would opt against conferences, just not for the sentiments you have stated.

The difference then was the volume of applicants. There wasn't really an option beyond the one they went with. You couldn't go for a tiered structure.

This time there are options and the decision will be known well in advance of the application deadline. Clubs had to get their format preference in yesterday. Chances are we'll find out this week which option won out.

Whichever option they go for i'm sure you'll find the EoSFL will be as accomodating as possible. Say they do go for a Second Division. If there's enough clubs they might go regional instead of seeded conferences for instance.

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While it is fair to say that teams are entitled to vote for what is best for them and not those potentially coming in, it should be remembered that his wasnt the approach by the member clubs a couple of years ago, who bent over backwards for the newcomers.

That said, I would opt against conferences, just not for the sentiments you have stated.
I'm not sure what sentiment you are attributing to me, but the reality is my view includes consideration for those teams and the reasoning for that was outlined in our return to the association.

It's not right for them that they bend over backwards for another season to suit the intransigence of the remaining juniors who have had 2 opportunities to move already, in my opinion.

The way the original teams handled things since two years ago was nothing short of exemplary. They deserve to get back to some level of normality as well after 2 seasons.

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Stand by for a rant.

At the end of the day the EoS will follow the instructions of the current member clubs, most of whom were Juniors two years ago.

It was the original members of the EoS which showed sympathy, selflessness and common sense when the large influx of Juniors came along.

Reading some posts here it seems that some of the supporters of these ex Juniors haven't learned a thing. It seems to be "we're better and wiser than the Juniors which made the mistake of believing (like the whole of the West Region Juniors) the drivel dispersed by the SJFA and so didn't join the EoS". Therefore let's keep kicking them - they're down so take advantage.

There has never been a better opportunity to create unity and a really cracking league for the non-league scene in the east with benefits at Under 20 and maybe at a future under 17 level. The SJFA has been well and truly "found out" and even the hard-line West Lothian and West Juniors see that now. (No. The West Lothian clubs won't be accepted into the new WoS)

It's time to move forward together and take in the south of Tay Bridge Juniors which choose to join and to allocate them fairly to an appropriate position in the divisions of the EoS. If there's that many then run them in parallel Tier 7 and 8 divisions for one season and then merge them fully, in a pre-agreed way, for 21/22.

Let's be clear about where these Juniors were before the exodus, as that is the only real means of comparison which there is.  Also recall that we are only talking about two seasons ago. Only 20 of the current EoS clubs were in the top 32 positions of the East Juniors before the exodus of clubs. 6 of the remaining places went to remain Juniors from south of the Tay Bridge. Also the two lead clubs in Div.1 south were clubs which remained in the Juniors.

However, as Bonnyrigg and one more club will be lost to the Lowland League by next season that makes in 8 out of 26 are clubs which are currently remain Juniors. That makes them comparable with anything that the EoS top two divisions has to offer.

The current Junior Super League South has 10 clubs. It makes sense that these clubs should not be relegated for what some perceive as past sins. The "let them play against the current weakest EoS clubs" attitude is all very well but it won't do those EoS clubs any good at all. Think about that. They'll continue to be hammered all too often. Not clever.

Also recall how so many posters here were fervent Juniors supporters and, indeed, anti EoS not so long ago. Things change. Don't they?  They will again if the EoS clubs vote shows their traditional consideration for others rather than the old Juniors attitudes. The next influx of Juniors needs to be welcomed and to be made to feel welcome - or are some here afraid that they may eventually take their clubs' places in the top division?

Kindly leave the old Juniors attitudes behind and help every club to move on and forward for the sake of non-league football in the east.

End of Rant.

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Dev mate, go and have a lie down.

How can Junior teams be "relegated" if they are joining a totally separate league?

They had their chance to enter at the appropriate level, they hitched their wagon to a dying grade. They'll move forward as they progress up the leagues, if they are good enough to do so.

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4 minutes ago, Dev said:

The current Junior Super League South has 10 clubs. It makes sense that these clubs should not be relegated for what some perceive as past sins. The "let them play against the current weakest EoS clubs" attitude is all very well but it won't do those EoS clubs any good at all. Think about that. They'll continue to be hammered all too often. Not clever.

I don't think for a second anyone actually voting on this wants a Prem-First-Second set up will have any considerations over "past sins". I don't think they particularly care about who else moves across either. They're doing what's best for them with the numbers that they have.

As for hammerings, there's two problems with that. One if that many Juniors move over at once there would likely be enough teams to regionalise the Second Division. With the geographic differences between the current  "weakest EoS clubs" and Junior teams they would mostly been in diferrent divisions.

Two, even if there's only enough teams for a single Second Division. The "current weakest EoS clubs" would actually be facing each other most of the time instead of being split across 2/3 Conferences. So even if it was Easthouses v Fauldhouse one week, it would be Easthouses v. Peebles the next.

Likely Second Division Clubs Games Points
1 Burntisland Shipyard 19 26
2 Tweedmouth Rangers 23 16
3 Ormiston 19 13
4 Hawick Royal Albert United 23 12
5 Easthouses Lily MW 18 12
6 Arniston Rangers* 21 9
7 Peebles Rovers 20 8
8 Craigroyston 24 3

 

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32 minutes ago, Dev said:

Stand by for a rant.

At the end of the day the EoS will follow the instructions of the current member clubs, most of whom were Juniors two years ago.

It was the original members of the EoS which showed sympathy, selflessness and common sense when the large influx of Juniors came along.

Reading some posts here it seems that some of the supporters of these ex Juniors haven't learned a thing. It seems to be "we're better and wiser than the Juniors which made the mistake of believing (like the whole of the West Region Juniors) the drivel dispersed by the SJFA and so didn't join the EoS". Therefore let's keep kicking them - they're down so take advantage.

There has never been a better opportunity to create unity and a really cracking league for the non-league scene in the east with benefits at Under 20 and maybe at a future under 17 level. The SJFA has been well and truly "found out" and even the hard-line West Lothian and West Juniors see that now. (No. The West Lothian clubs won't be accepted into the new WoS)

It's time to move forward together and take in the south of Tay Bridge Juniors which choose to join and to allocate them fairly to an appropriate position in the divisions of the EoS. If there's that many then run them in parallel Tier 7 and 8 divisions for one season and then merge them fully, in a pre-agreed way, for 21/22.

Let's be clear about where these Juniors were before the exodus, as that is the only real means of comparison which there is.  Also recall that we are only talking about two seasons ago. Only 20 of the current EoS clubs were in the top 32 positions of the East Juniors before the exodus of clubs. 6 of the remaining places went to remain Juniors from south of the Tay Bridge. Also the two lead clubs in Div.1 south were clubs which remained in the Juniors.

However, as Bonnyrigg and one more club will be lost to the Lowland League by next season that makes in 8 out of 26 are clubs which are currently remain Juniors. That makes them comparable with anything that the EoS top two divisions has to offer.

The current Junior Super League South has 10 clubs. It makes sense that these clubs should not be relegated for what some perceive as past sins. The "let them play against the current weakest EoS clubs" attitude is all very well but it won't do those EoS clubs any good at all. Think about that. They'll continue to be hammered all too often. Not clever.

Also recall how so many posters here were fervent Juniors supporters and, indeed, anti EoS not so long ago. Things change. Don't they?  They will again if the EoS clubs vote shows their traditional consideration for others rather than the old Juniors attitudes. The next influx of Juniors needs to be welcomed and to be made to feel welcome - or are some here afraid that they may eventually take their clubs' places in the top division?

Kindly leave the old Juniors attitudes behind and help every club to move on and forward for the sake of non-league football in the east.

End of Rant.

 

In summary, you're still banging the drum to let current Junior clubs enter at a higher level than current members of the EoS. 

That didn't happen two years ago (and not a single ex-Junior club expected or demanded it), it didnt happen last year, and it won't happen this year.  It's nonsense to expect anything otherwise.

No club in WL and Fife who are still Juniors are going to join the EoS and start dishing out hammerings. How many East Junior games have you seen this season?

Edited by Burnie_man

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The EoSFL have to take the decision on league structure that's best for the league. To me that's Premier, First, Second. Any current juniors who wish to join should join under exactly the same circumstances as all the rest joined. Go in at the lowest level and, depending on numbers, 'conference' the lowest level to accommodate.

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Looking at the bottom 4 from each Conference you can see that most of them of picked up their points against each other. Geographically Burntisland is the only one that would be in a different regional division. So you can see why they might want to play against each other instead of being split across Conferences again.

  • Burntisland Shipyard (5-2-0) 17 of their 26 points
  • Tweedmouth Rangers (4-1-5) 13 of their 16 points
  • Ormiston (3-2-2) 11 of their 13 points
  • Hawick Royal Albert United (2-3-6) 9 of their 12 points
  • Easthouses Lily MW (3-0-2) 9 of their 12 points
  • Arniston Rangers (2-1-3) 7 of what would have been 15 points if not for the 6 point deduction
  • Peebles Rovers (2-2-3) 8 of their 8 points
  • Craigroyston (0-2-4) 2 of their 3 points
     

 

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43 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

The EoSFL have to take the decision on league structure that's best for the league. To me that's Premier, First, Second. Any current juniors who wish to join should join under exactly the same circumstances as all the rest joined. Go in at the lowest level and, depending on numbers, 'conference' the lowest level to accommodate.

"All the rest" joined two seasons ago in 3 conferences of 13 teams with the existing EoS clubs.

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For me no junior club should come in at a higher level than a current member, don’t mind if they do it at tier 8 or tier 7, really should be for the current tier 7 clubs to decide as its them who will be affected, I’d go along with what they want to do. And the clubs joining can’t really complain as they were told this would happen, is not our fault they bought into the junior Pravda. And teams in the west take note is tier six this year seven the next and eight the year after.

Edited by falkirktv

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11 minutes ago, Deanburn Dave said:

A decent compromise would be the new clubs coming in at tier 8 and having 4 go up at the end of the season to tier 7.

That would be a fair way to do it

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Rougly how a Tier 7 could look based on current standings and if everyone in the East Region moved across. Also the idea that LL champ is promoted with Brechin relegated which should lead to the EoS Premier needing a fourth side promoted to it from the current conferences. You could add Eyemouth to bottom of Conference A if you wanted. Feels a bit unneccessary when you can have 16 of those clubs playing First Division football for a season and another 4 getting promoted from the Second Division.

A 14 Blackburn United B 15 Whitehill Welfare C 16 Newtongrange Star
A 3 Dunipace B 3 Glenrothes C 4 Heriot-Watt University
A 4 Edinburgh United B 5 Haddington Athletic C 5 Preston Athletic
A 6 Kinnoull B 6 Dalkeith Thistle C 7 St Andrews United
A 7 Coldstream B 8 Oakley United C 8 Stirling University (EoS)
A 9 Burntisland Shipyard B 9 Tweedmouth Rangers C 10 Ormiston
A 10 Easthouses Lily MW B 11 Hawick Royal Albert United C 11 Peebles Rovers
A 12 Arniston Rangers B 12 Craigroyston C 1 Livingston United
A 2 Pumpherston Juniors B 3 Armadale Thistle C 4 Fauldhouse United
A 5 Whitburn Juniors B 6 Thornton Hibs C 7 Bathgate Thistle
A 8 Harthill Royal B 9 Kennoway Star Hearts C 10 Lochore Welfare
A 7 Tayport B 8 Scone Thistle C 1 Rosyth
A 2 Stoneyburn Juniors B 3 Newburgh Juniors C 4 Kirkcaldy & Dysart
A 5 Sauchie Community B 6 Lochgelly Albert C 7 Linlithgow Rose Community
A 8 Syngenta B 9 Bo'ness United Juniors C 10 West Calder United

 

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44 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Rougly how a Tier 7 could look based on current standings and if everyone in the East Region moved across. Also the idea that LL champ is promoted with Brechin relegated which should lead to the EoS Premier needing a fourth side promoted to it from the current conferences. You could add Eyemouth to bottom of Conference A if you wanted. Feels a bit unneccessary when you can have 16 of those clubs playing First Division football for a season and another 4 getting promoted from the Second Division.

A 14 Blackburn United B 15 Whitehill Welfare C 16 Newtongrange Star
A 3 Dunipace B 3 Glenrothes C 4 Heriot-Watt University
A 4 Edinburgh United B 5 Haddington Athletic C 5 Preston Athletic
A 6 Kinnoull B 6 Dalkeith Thistle C 7 St Andrews United
A 7 Coldstream B 8 Oakley United C 8 Stirling University (EoS)
A 9 Burntisland Shipyard B 9 Tweedmouth Rangers C 10 Ormiston
A 10 Easthouses Lily MW B 11 Hawick Royal Albert United C 11 Peebles Rovers
A 12 Arniston Rangers B 12 Craigroyston C 1 Livingston United
A 2 Pumpherston Juniors B 3 Armadale Thistle C 4 Fauldhouse United
A 5 Whitburn Juniors B 6 Thornton Hibs C 7 Bathgate Thistle
A 8 Harthill Royal B 9 Kennoway Star Hearts C 10 Lochore Welfare
A 7 Tayport B 8 Scone Thistle C 1 Rosyth
A 2 Stoneyburn Juniors B 3 Newburgh Juniors C 4 Kirkcaldy & Dysart
A 5 Sauchie Community B 6 Lochgelly Albert C 7 Linlithgow Rose Community
A 8 Syngenta B 9 Bo'ness United Juniors C 10 West Calder United

 

45 clubs and only 3 promotion spots.  Illustrates why Conferences next season wouldn't be good.

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Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Second tier 8
Third tier 9

Or

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Conferences tier 8

Clubs have worked tirelessly to get themselves to a position in their leagues where they would form a first division to then spend another season in a conference set up fighting with up to 44 teams for promotion as opposed to 15.

Sadly, clubs who stayed junior and chose (chose being the important word) not to move should come in at the lowest possible entry point. This will be set by the votes if current eos member clubs.

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3 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Second tier 8
Third tier 9

Or

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Conferences tier 8

Clubs have worked tirelessly to get themselves to a position in their leagues where they would form a first division to then spend another season in a conference set up fighting with up to 44 teams for promotion as opposed to 15.

Sadly, clubs who stayed junior and chose (chose being the important word) not to move should come in at the lowest possible entry point. This will be set by the votes if current eos member clubs.

agreed but I would have a a second division at tier 8 and conferences at tier 9 for the future

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21 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Second tier 8
Third tier 9

Or

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Conferences tier 8

Clubs have worked tirelessly to get themselves to a position in their leagues where they would form a first division to then spend another season in a conference set up fighting with up to 44 teams for promotion as opposed to 15.

Sadly, clubs who stayed junior and chose (chose being the important word) not to move should come in at the lowest possible entry point. This will be set by the votes if current eos member clubs.

I think you could go down as far Tier 9 if necessary long term. When you look at how things divide up regionally Fife and Edinburgh/East teams are fine but West Lothian clubs would get split quite poorly. The four region wide leagues has worked out reasonably well in the West so far and certainly haven't been too many complaints over travel from existing EoS clubs that i've noticed.

It just comes down to the idea of widening the pyramid the further down you get to try and make it more accessible.

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