sdr71 Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 2 hours ago, HibeeJibee said: Article really conflates 2 separate issues... 'Cove up/Berwick down' scenario, and Brechin/Montrose/etc.'s preferences on boundary location. If we're supposed to believe that your 'Cove up/Berwick down' scenario is an issue, then moving where the boundary is wouldn't do anything to solve it anyway. Had the boundary been at Stonehaven - or halfway up Fife - exactly the same scenario would have occurred. It is a consequence of having a boundary. If you don't have a boundary at all it's unclear how that could even work... would teams pick where they go? game the system? flip flop?... and it would be worse not better in terms of "complications for organisers" as they wouldn't know the scenario season-to-season or perhaps even during the season. Wherever you have a boundary someone will be near it and may wish it fell the other side. Doesn't mean everyone else agrees though... do Montrose seem HL or LL looking from Gretna? Of course the alternative is to move a team from 1 area to another to maintain equal numbers. No-one would regard moving Kelty to HL or moving Inverurie to LL as a serious proposition, though. It's not clear to me what this journalist means by "complication for organisers" anyway... as LL and EOSL have a perfectly logical and understandable model for coping with imbalances in between tiers 4-5, 5-6 and 6-7. If you don't get a boundary at all, you probably end up with something like the English solution - pool the clubs at a given level, and then split them. This is bad in England and would be worse in Scotland, because no-one north of Dundee is interested in going to level 5. So clubs would get shifted from south to north - University of Stirling and the Shire first, then Linlithgow and Bo'ness if/when they get to that level. Add the West Juniors to the pyramid and you could have Edinburgh clubs in the Highland League within a decade. Some kind of 'soft' boundary might be better - Dundee and points south to the Lowland, Aberdeen and points north to the Highland, giving clubs in between a choice of north or south. There shouldn't be enough of them to distort matters unduly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 4 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said: Hopefully common sense prevails and it gets changed to the Highland Boundary Fault line: and the next item on the agenda after that is LL East and LL West to fix the massive population imbalance. It's not common sense at all, moving your boundary north just makes the population imbalance worse. Common sense would be to do it on council boundaries. 4 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said: See post above. I hope the next item on the agenda would be LL East and LL West, which is mentioned in one of the options up for discussion right now on SJFA entry. The west-east-north split of the junior superleagues is the sensible one for balancing population and geography considerations at tier 5. It's not a sensible split, at the time of the formation of the superleagues, Tayside could've and possibly should've gone North. Their inter-district competition was (and is) with what is currently the North Region. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 The north region didn't have teams in Caithness and Sutherland when the superleagues were brought in. If they had nobody with a semblance of sanity would have suggested East Craigie and Downfield should be playing away games there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 15, 2020 Author Share Posted January 15, 2020 A reminder of what a poster called prorege on nonleague matters claimed was happening: https://nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?post=957829#957829 If the line moves to the Helensburgh / Stonehaven HBF then Brechin is south of it. Brechin, supported by Forfar, Montrose and Arbroath are lobbying for the line to be moved so they fall into LL territory. They argue that all 4 clubs train in the central belt and their playing squads are primarily based in the Forth-Clyde valley. The players only go to the home ground for home games. The location of the towns would be peripheral to the HL and recruiting players to commit to the daunting HL schedule would be difficult. They believe sending them to the HL would be counter-intuitive. Furthermore, they feel, there are several HL clubs who would invest heavily for the glory of winning the HL but have no interest in moving up to the SPFL. The LL would be more of a level playing field with all likely winners committed to promotion. Scottish football bodies respond to what their member clubs want rather than what spreadsheets and calculators suggest. The SPFL could easily withdraw from the relegation play off if the pyramid arrangements do not suit them. Where clubs train and where their players live is completely immaterial. That's their own choice.HL and LL clubs cannot turn down promotion, so no idea why that is being mentioned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: ...HL and LL clubs cannot turn down promotion, so no idea why that is being mentioned. Angus clubs will remember how Brora had key players away on holiday when playing Montrose for promotion. As long as it is a playoff format a reluctant HL champion can find a way to lose. Edited January 15, 2020 by LongTimeLurker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 15, 2020 Author Share Posted January 15, 2020 Angus clubs will remember how Brora had key players away on holiday when playing Montrose for promotion. As long as it is a playoff format a reluctant HL champion can find a way to lose.I still don't see what point he is trying to make, and you can't base decisions on wild conspiracy theories.Location of training, players location and conspiracy theories isn't really going to cut it and convince everyone to move a long accepted boundary. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Since 2014-15 isn't long accepted and it was blatantly obvious that it was Brora that were being referred to. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 15, 2020 Author Share Posted January 15, 2020 Since 2014-15 isn't long accepted and it was blatantly obvious that it was Brora that were being referred to.6 years is quite long, and conspiracy theories are just that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Brora wins the first leg 1-0. Goes into half time 2-1 up on aggregate in the 2nd leg. Certainly the bookies never lost enough money on it to call it fixed. Considering how some of the playoffs have gone with teams actually trying, Brora might actually get promoted at some point. 10 games against SPFL42. 4 wins for the HL/LL champion. Two were by Cove, one by Brora and one by Edinburgh City. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: The north region didn't have teams in Caithness and Sutherland when the superleagues were brought in. If they had nobody with a semblance of sanity would have suggested East Craigie and Downfield should be playing away games there. Eh? The North Region has never had teams in Caithness or Sutherland. We're talking about the boundary at the current tier 5 i.e. the level below the SPFL, where if you haven't noticed, they play nationally. East Craigie and Downfield would be unlikely to be playing in Tier 5 anytime soon, even if somehow the East Region vaulted into the pyramid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Cyclizine said: ...It's not a sensible split, at the time of the formation of the superleagues, Tayside could've and possibly should've gone North.... This is what I responded to. You were not comparing like with like because Wick and Brora were not a factor when the superleagues were brought in. There were proposals for Tayside and the North region to merge at superleague level, but only because the geographical scope of the north juniors was more limited than that of the HL. What I stated beyond that is that the SJFA's west-east-north three way split would be the sensible format for tier 5 in the here and now to balance population and geographical considerations. It appears the SFA may be trying to coax things in that direction given the LL West and LL East option in the PWG proposals and the BBC website story about the possible HL:LL boundary shift. Some posters on this subforum seem to think Scottish football revolves around the EoS league and the SFA are clueless in big picture terms, so this doesn't fit the narrative they have been peddling over the last 18 months or so. Edited January 16, 2020 by LongTimeLurker 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 I would say that the longer term LL East and LL West is good lurker, but it would have to mean 3 promotion and relegation spots. 3 into 1 is worse than where we are right now with the HL and LL.To do that the bigger picture would be to cut the number of spfl leagues, make them bigger in numbers and take teams from the LL into the bottom of the spfl leagues. Increase the places for promotion to 3 and have the LL East and West do the same. Make a free flowing pyramid instead of a bottleneck process we have right now.The boundary line conundrum will rage on. We each have our take on it, if it moves how far does it move, what is fair and what is not fair, what club do we stop at? The line as it is is a natural breaker, I don't personally think it should move. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 16, 2020 Author Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: It appears the SFA may be trying to coax things in that direction given the LL West and LL East option in the PWG proposals and the BBC website story about the possible HL:LL boundary shift. Some posters on this subforum seem to think Scottish football revolves around the EoS league and the SFA are clueless in big picture terms, so this doesn't fit the narrative they have been peddling over the last 18 months or so. "It appears", no it really doesn't. The four "suggestions" being debated are take-aways from what was discussed round the table at the last PWG meeting. These are not SFA backed recommendations, they are debating points, hence why an already rejected proposal is one of the four. The suggestion of a LL split could have come from anyone around that table. Nobody thinks football revolves around the EoS, that is just your irrational grudge coming into play again. Yes, the SFA really are a bit clueless when it comes to this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: This is what I responded to. You were not comparing like with like because Wick and Brora were not a factor when the superleagues were brought in. There were proposals for Tayside and the North region to merge at superleague level, but only because the geographical scope of the north juniors was more limited than that of the HL. What I stated beyond that is that the SJFA's west-east-north three way split would be the sensible format for tier 5 in the here and now to balance population and geographical considerations. It appears the SFA may be trying to coax things in that direction given the LL West and LL East option in the PWG proposals and the BBC website story about the possible HL:LL boundary shift. Some posters on this subforum seem to think Scottish football revolves around the EoS league and the SFA are clueless in big picture terms, so this doesn't fit the narrative they have been peddling over the last 18 months or so. The merging of the district leagues to form the superleagues has nothing to do with the Highland League. I don't understand where you're coming from here. I get your point about three tier 5 leagues, but that isn't going to happen, at least not any time soon. There's two divisions. You've still not given a convincing argument why moving the boundary north (even in a three region system) is a sensible option, particularly when you keep saying that the population distribution is inequitable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 (edited) I don't get why Brechin or Montrose would be so worried about a trip to Wick and Brora once a year, or maybe another in the HL Cup every few years. and they would have plenty fixtures closer than the Central belt. Also it would probably be easier to get back to the SPFL from the the HL than the LL, especially with moneybags Cove and Brora out of the way. Edited January 16, 2020 by welshbairn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 31 minutes ago, welshbairn said: I don't get why Brechin or Montrose would be so worried about a trip to Wick and Brora once a year, or maybe another in the HL Cup every few years. and they would have plenty fixtures closer than the Central belt. Also it would probably be easier to get back to the SPFL from the the HL than the LL, especially with moneybags Cove and Brora out of the way. The thing seems to be entirely around player recruitment. Good chance they would be facing Dalbeattie, Berwick, Gretna and Gala next year if relegated. Those travel concerns don't get mentioned. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Burnie_man said: "It appears", no it really doesn't. The four "suggestions" being debated are take-aways from what was discussed round the table at the last PWG meeting. These are not SFA backed recommendations, they are debating points, hence why an already rejected proposal is one of the four. The suggestion of a LL split could have come from anyone around that table. Nobody thinks football revolves around the EoS, that is just your irrational grudge coming into play again. Yes, the SFA really are a bit clueless when it comes to this. Have been assured by PM (definitely won't divulge the source) that option 4 did come from the SFA. Think the indications are that the SFA board have a preferred outcome at this point that is different from your one. That's different from being clueless. Think you are projecting on the irrational grudge thing. Did you miss my recent posts in which I was arguing that the EoS should do as much as possible to attract more junior clubs into their fold for next season? -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 54 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: The thing seems to be entirely around player recruitment. Good chance they would be facing Dalbeattie, Berwick, Gretna and Gala next year if relegated. Those travel concerns don't get mentioned. They could always start poaching players from the North rather than the South if they go down. Quote Former Montrose chairman Derek Sim Playing in the Highland League, there are a number of clubs around the Aberdeen area, so the travel costs and the time getting to matches aren't too great. However, if you look at the Lowland League, with the clubs based between the Edinburgh and the Glasgow areas, you will probably find that in terms of the number of games you would be playing, your overall travel costs would be less than travelling in the Highland League. And obviously the games that are outwith the Aberdeenshire area, and moving in to Moray, Inverness, Brora and dare I say Wick. So I think there is a lot of work that needs to be thought through by the Scottish FA and the current set-up that we have. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51111688 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCamelonfan Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 35 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: Have been assured by PM (definitely won't divulge the source) that option 4 did come from the SFA. Think the indications are that the SFA board have a preferred outcome at this point that is different from your one. That's different from being clueless. Think you are projecting on the irrational grudge thing. Did you miss my recent posts in which I was arguing that the EoS should do as much as possible to attract more junior clubs into their fold for next season? Is that the same source as juniors are tier 6 next season. They have done the same thing again and ate trying to tell the east they will be at tier 6 next season to try stop them leaving. The whole scottish football needs a change similar to what someone said make premiership and championship 12 teams. The other 18 in league one then you could sort out regional football below that. Not going to happen. Eos have their application forms on their site. What do you want them to do? Go and ask juniors to join? Its uptonthe clubs in the east to apply common sense and join eosfl. You keep blaming eosfl but its sfa that need to have a clear firm decision on the boundary and it doesn't look like that will change 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 35 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said: ...You keep blaming eosfl... False news -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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