Pyramid 2019/2020

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

Think Brechin are based in Grangemouth in training terms, so Brechin isn't necessarily the real starting point in travel terms. Brechin's argument appears to be that they would find it a lot more difficult to recruit players of sufficient standard who would be willing to play away games in Wick as opposed to Dalbeattie at tier 5, so doubt those numbers would sway them.

Doesn't matter. I'm sure BSC Glasgow train and recruit largely out of the Glasgow area and yet as a club they would be relegated to the East of Scotland League. Why? Because they play their games out of Alloa.

Peterhead had, or still have players, that travel from the Dumfries area. Should they be relegated to the Lowland League as well?

[Ginaro]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Based on Google Maps with miles rounded up so they shouldn't change, but the estimated times will change based on their fastest times estimates.

Brechin City v. the current HL and LL.

Now do it with the various scenarios - Brora promoted, Kelty promoted, Threave or Bo'ness replacing Vale/Gretna/Edinburgh Uni

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Ginaro said:

Now do it with the various scenarios - Brora promoted, Kelty promoted, Threave or Bo'ness replacing Vale/Gretna/Edinburgh Uni

forgetting Banks O'dee joining the Highland League

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Ginaro said:

Now do it with the various scenarios - Brora promoted, Kelty promoted, Threave or Bo'ness replacing Vale/Gretna/Edinburgh Uni

Let's just abolish the HL and throw everyone into the LL  

[LongTimeLurker]

11 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Doesn't matter. I'm sure BSC Glasgow train and recruit largely out of the Glasgow area...

Think you are missing the bigger picture. The SFA board wouldn't be raising this issue with a meeting timed perfectly to fit the PWG discussions, if they didn't want this boundary shifted and if they can get it shifted (fingers crossed) there will likely be no argument any more on whether Tayside clubs fall within the LL/EoS catchment. Will be interesting to see what the LL's posture will be and whether they would and could actively try to block a boundary shift. I seriously doubt the SPFL or HL will be opposed. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think you are missing the bigger picture. The SFA board wouldn't be raising this issue with a meeting timed perfectly to fit the PWG discussions, if they didn't want this boundary shifted and if they can get it shifted (fingers crossed) there will likely be no argument any more on whether Tayside clubs fall within the LL/EoS catchment. Will be interesting to see what the LL's posture will be and whether they would and could actively try to block a boundary shift. I seriously doubt the SPFL or HL will be opposed. 

Everything aside, do you seriously think moving more clubs into the LL catchment area is a good idea for a so-called Pyramid?  I can't see it being changed, sense will prevail.

[LongTimeLurker]

See post above. I hope the next item on the agenda would be LL East and LL West, which is mentioned in one of the options up for discussion right now on SJFA entry. The west-east-north split of the junior superleagues is the sensible one for balancing population and geography considerations at tier 5.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

See post above. I hope the next item on the agenda would be LL East and LL West, which is mentioned in one of the options up for discussion right now on SJFA entry. The west-east-north split of the junior superleagues is the sensible one for balancing population and geography considerations at tier 5.

As things stand (a single LL)  is it a good idea to get even more clubs into an overloaded LL?

Edited January 15, 2020 by Burnie_man

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

Think you are missing the bigger picture. The SFA board wouldn't be raising this issue with a meeting timed perfectly to fit the PWG discussions, if they didn't want this boundary shifted and if they can get it shifted (fingers crossed) there will likely be no argument any more on whether Tayside clubs fall within the LL/EoS catchment. Will be interesting to see what the LL's posture will be and whether they would and could actively try to block a boundary shift. I seriously doubt the SPFL or HL will be opposed. 

I'm not missing the bigger picture, we're looking at different things. I think the boundary line has been drawn perfectly well for the North of Scotland. Trapsing out the former Montrose chairman to say he has doubts in 2015 and 2020 doesn't change my mind. In fact Montrose Roselea's progression from East Region and North Region has reinforced my opinion on the matter.

Every club that gets relegated from the SPFL to Tier 5 is going to have to completely reconfigure how they operate in terms of recruitment. Look at how Berwick have struggled and all of their humming and hawing over moving to England instead of the Lowland League. Think about what if Stranraer, Elgin, Annan or Peterhead get relegated.

The very best clubs from the actual Highland area are already in the Highland League or SPFL. As a competition the Highland League will only take on more of a North East slant. With Tayside included it will take on a Grampian/Tayside dynamic. In the same way a West would be Greater Glasgow/Ayrshire and the East would be Lothians & Fife.

[FairWeatherFan]

25 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think you are missing the bigger picture. The SFA board wouldn't be raising this issue with a meeting timed perfectly to fit the PWG discussions, if they didn't want this boundary shifted and if they can get it shifted (fingers crossed) there will likely be no argument any more on whether Tayside clubs fall within the LL/EoS catchment. Will be interesting to see what the LL's posture will be and whether they would and could actively try to block a boundary shift. I seriously doubt the SPFL or HL will be opposed. 

By the way as Burnie pointed out the meeting between "all relevant bodies" is probably the Lowland subgroup PWG meeting. Which does not include the SPFL, Highland League. So the article is misleading.

All it basically says it was has already been known since December. The next PWG meeting is on the 29th January and that the boundary will be discussed. All that's happened is throwing in quotes from an exMontrose chairman. The fact it's the ex-chairman makes me wonder if its just old quotes dug up from the 2015 play-off when he was the actual chairman.

EDIT: On the point that isn't it weird that an ex-Chairman is giving quotes in the HL/LL boundary. Here's a fairly long article by the same writer from 4 days ago with the Brechin City chairman in it. Would of thought he would of been a great person to ask about the HL/LL boundary getting changed, since it potentially effects them this year. Yet there's no mention of it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51066521

Edited January 15, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[LongTimeLurker]

Any meeting to shift this would have to involve the SPFL, so think this is separate from the Lowland subgroup PWG meeting, but we'll see what unfolds. Remember there has been talk of Brechin lobbying hard to get this changed with suppport from other Angus clubs.

[Burnie_man]

42 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

EDIT: On the point that isn't it weird that an ex-Chairman is giving quotes in the HL/LL boundary. Here's a fairly long article by the same writer from 4 days ago with the Brechin City chairman in it. Would of thought he would of been a great person to ask about the HL/LL boundary getting changed, since it potentially effects them this year. Yet there's no mention of it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51066521

Says it all that he was opposed to the Pyramid to begin with.  Article reads like they know they're going to the Highland League if they get relegated.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Burnie_man

[FairWeatherFan]

20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Any meeting to shift this would have to involve the SPFL, so think this is separate from the Lowland subgroup PWG meeting, but we'll see what unfolds. Remember there has been talk of Brechin lobbying hard to get this changed with suppport from other Angus clubs.

Do you not think the writer put their own understanding on things.

Rather than the SFA Chief Exec and President asking the LL, EoSFL, SoSFL and SJFA to canvas their members opininon on the HL/LL boundary line for the next PWG meeting. All while knowing the SFA had booked a Professional Game Board meeting for the same day that will decide what the boundary is going to be?

[LongTimeLurker]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Do you not think the writer put their own understanding on things...

As things stand I see no compelling reason to reach that conclusion. For some of the options listed by the SFA for the Lowland subsection PWG to discuss to actually happen the boundary would need to be shifted to avoid having the farcical scenario of the boundary depending on whether you are moving upwards or downwards through the pyramid. It would not be suprising if the SPFL and HL were brought in at this point to clarify whether this can get resolved. We have no way of knowing whether SPFL and HL clubs have been polled about this already behind the scenes.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

We have no way of knowing whether SPFL and HL clubs have been polled about this already behind the scenes.

The same SPFL that went to the press with the SPFL3 idea, only to finally ask their members who went no.

[LongTimeLurker]

This would be a lot less controversial than Old Firm colt teams.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

This would be a lot less controversial than Old Firm colt teams.

It's not about any controversy. It's about the fact I doubt that anyone within the SPFL has been polled on it.

[HibeeJibee]

Article really conflates 2 separate issues... 'Cove up/Berwick down' scenario, and Brechin/Montrose/etc.'s preferences on boundary location.

If we're supposed to believe that your 'Cove up/Berwick down' scenario is an issue, then moving where the boundary is wouldn't do anything to solve it anyway. Had the boundary been at Stonehaven - or halfway up Fife - exactly the same scenario would have occurred. It is a consequence of having a boundary. If you don't have a boundary at all it's unclear how that could even work... would teams pick where they go? game the system? flip flop?... and it would be worse not better in terms of "complications for organisers" as they wouldn't know the scenario season-to-season or perhaps even during the season.

Wherever you have a boundary someone will be near it and may wish it fell the other side. Doesn't mean everyone else agrees though... do Montrose seem HL or LL looking from Gretna?

Of course the alternative is to move a team from 1 area to another to maintain equal numbers. No-one would regard moving Kelty to HL or moving Inverurie to LL as a serious proposition, though.

It's not clear to me what this journalist means by "complication for organisers" anyway... as LL and EOSL have a perfectly logical and understandable model for coping with imbalances in between tiers 4-5, 5-6 and 6-7.

Edited January 15, 2020 by HibeeJibee

[LongTimeLurker]

A reminder of what a poster called prorege on nonleague matters claimed was happening:

https://nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?post=957829#957829

If the line moves to the Helensburgh / Stonehaven HBF then Brechin is south of it.

Brechin, supported by Forfar, Montrose and Arbroath are lobbying for the line to be moved so they fall into LL territory.

They argue that all 4 clubs train in the central belt and their playing squads are primarily based in the Forth-Clyde valley. The players only go to the home ground for home games. The location of the towns would be peripheral to the HL and recruiting players to commit to the daunting HL schedule would be difficult.

They believe sending them to the HL would be counter-intuitive.

Furthermore, they feel, there are several HL clubs who would invest heavily for the glory of winning the HL but have no interest in moving up to the SPFL. The LL would be more of a level playing field with all likely winners committed to promotion.

Scottish football bodies respond to what their member clubs want rather than what spreadsheets and calculators suggest. The SPFL could easily withdraw from the relegation play off if the pyramid arrangements do not suit them.

[parsforlife]

‘It too complicated’ is just the call of a simpleton journalist who has spent most of their life wondering about Barry Ferguson’s hair doo or scott browns dog and found themselves having to write an article on lower leagues, remember we had people genuinely wondering how Berwick would survive in the HL before the cove game.

 

As a stand alone proposal it doesn’t really make sense to move the boundary further north. It can work with a change in the play-off format or another league at tier 5 but not currently.

 

FWIW I’m not sure how certain you can be that sure HL/Spfl would vote for it. Do Annan/Stranraer really want to include Angus teams in a league they’d be relegated to? Even a few of the glasgow area sides could question it.

 

The eastern sides might not be bothered in terms of travel but there’s potential politics to come in, maybe they’d feel they’d find recruitment harder ?