Pyramid 2019/2020

[Marten]

1 hour ago, Pyramidic said:

In my view a club without lights (or other mandatory requirements) finishing in first place in the EoSLand SoSL in the 2019/20 season should be replaced by the second placed club if they are not Licensed.  This change should be adopted by a rule change in the LL / EoSL / SoSL constitutions.  Simples!

"Replacement clubs" down to third place appear to work quite well in the English pyramid between Steps 6 and 7 (Levels 10 & 11).

I cannot understand why some flexibility cannot also be built into our Pyramid.

In my view Bonnyrigg Rose have been treated very harshly by the SFA - quite unnecessary in my opinion.  However with more enlighted rule-making there might have still been the possibility of a LL play-off between the two second placed clubs:

Penicuik Athletic  v  Bonnyton Thistle
[but not in this case as Bonnyton do not have a Licence - anyone know the latest situation re licensing applicants in the SoSL?]

Why do our rules have to be configured in such a way that limits forward-thinking and progression?

Bonnyton don't have a license indeed, third placed Nithsdale Wanderers don't have a license either, so in your suggestion Penicuik would get promoted without play-off. I fully agree that should be done though.

[BS7]

Does it make difference for Penicuik and Broxburn that Bonnyrigg played the play offs believing they had a chance of promotion ? The timing stinks. If it had been announced a fortnight earlier, the play offs would have been different.

[Pyramidic]

I suppose the other issue is that when the WRJFA  come aboard TJ & Co will probably only support the promotion of the West Region champions in the hope that their champions will not be licensed.  If a move is made now for the principle of the highest licensed club "in the top 3" to progress to the LL Play-off it would effectively  circumnavigate the influence of TJ and the SJFA Executive on this matter.

However, if the SFA continue to take their current blinkered approach to the Pyramid the possibility of positive changes of this nature are not great.

It is very frustrating that in comparison the English FA appear to be constantly tinkering with and improving their pyramid.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Pyramidic

[Robert James]

On 11/05/2019 at 20:30, Footballfirst said:

I believe that B4 makes it clear that the process of maintaining 16 clubs following a resignation/expulsion is by application (ergo - not promotion/relegation).

Thereafter, I believe that  the probable mismatch between the number of clubs promoted (none) and relegated (one) means  B4 (a) and (b) will apply.

I think we should agree to disagree on our interpretation of B4, otherwise we will end up in a circular debate.

 

Ask the existing 15 member clubs (at the AGM), if they would support 18 clubs in the Lowland, on an ongoing basis, starting from 2019/20. Playing on 30 league matches at the top  non-league tier is too few.  Just look at the higher number of league matches the part-time & (some) amateur clubs play in the lower levels of the English pyramid. The SLL clubs could support this change, which would enable Berwick to be relegated, Bonnyrigg to be promoted (with a year's derogation on floodlights), also mean a licensed Lowland applicant could be elected to join the league (eg Linlithgow), and it would enable Whitehill to remain in the Lowland -thereby avoiding 'battles' over the interpretation of the existing rules . 

Bonnyrigg would not be alone regarding having no floodlights. However the same derogation (ie no floodlights, albeit until June 2020 only), was also applied to  CSS Strollers, Vale of Leithen and Whitehill Welfare, who don't have lights either. I have nothing against these clubs, but can't see how the Lowland League can avoid bringing in a  Club Member "floodlights" rule, now that lights will be compulsory for an SFA  licence to be awarded. 

Everyone happy ? Maybe, with the exception of the SFA , which prefers 16 team leagues.

 

[newcastle broon]

4 hours ago, Duraglit shareholder said:

If Bonnyrigg are refused entry due to not having floodlights, and its a stipulation of entry to the Lowland League, then surely as a matter of fairness and integrity the 3 other teams currently playing in the LL without floodlights  should be demoted and replaced by the next best teams that have the infrustructure that meets the current criteria.That may sound harsh and provide me with a few red dots, but the treatment dished out to Bonnyrigg is unforgivable, 

How many times its no the fault of the LL teams that Bonnyrigg did nae get their license !!

 

[Pyramidic]

On 14/02/2019 at 19:05, Bad Wolf said:

It seems quite clear to me that two posters on this thread (Kilbowie Benches and Lochee Boy) are engaging in an ongoing campaign of misinformation in pursuit of their own ends. I used to find it funny, but now it's just incredibly tedious. I only hope that anyone who might conceivably have influence in the decision making process regarding the shape of next season's Tier 6 is taking note; as IMO these two characters and their outpourings are strongly indicative of how they, and others like them, will operate within the pyramid ie to it's detriment, and quite deliberately so. Their twin objects being obfuscation and stasis.

I came across these perceptive comments from Bad Wolf.  I wonder how many ERJFA club officials were taken in by the comments of Kilbowie Benches and Lochee Boy and the effect that it had on the decisions of their respective clubs to remain Junior?  The divisions that remain in our respective camps are not good for the progression of  Scottish non-league football.  It is both unnecessary and futile.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Pyramidic said:

I came across these perceptive comments from Bad Wolf.  I wonder how many ERJFA club officials were taken in by the comments of Kilbowie Benches and Lochee Boy and the effect that it had on the decisions of their respective clubs to remain Junior?  The divisions that remain in our respective camps are not good for the progression of  Scottish non-league football.  It is both unnecessary and futile.

I notice the ERJFA website has now removed the "Tier 6" advert, it was on their until a few days ago.  As I said at the time, it was wholly misleading.  KB has entirely disappeared, LB couldn't bring himself to apologise as he said he would if he was proved to be wrong.

Bad Wolf called it spot on.

[Burnie_man]

Understand your frustration Newcastle Broon at having to sound like a gramophone record on this subject but the posters cannot accept the rules that have applied in the LL regarding floodlights and you will have to have them this coming season or your out.   I am getting a bit tired of the monotonous conspiracy theories that abound in the hostelries and High Street of Bonnyrigg that EVERYONE is against us because we are so good and we didny know and naybody telt us..    They should just get on wi the job in hand and conform as you will have to do or suffer the consequences.

The Lowland League haven't applied any rules re floodlights, and all 6 clubs rejected by the SFA for a licence did meet the requirements required at the start of the process.

When you've spent a lot of money and end up getting shafted, people aren't just going to get on with it.

[craigkillie]

Does it make difference for Penicuik and Broxburn that Bonnyrigg played the play offs believing they had a chance of promotion ? The timing stinks. If it had been announced a fortnight earlier, the play offs would have been different.

The play-offs were for the overall East of Scotland League title and a place in the Scottish Cup. Unlicensed teams were eligible to complete, so it would have been those three clubs involved regardless of the licensing outcome.

[Gordon EF]

8 hours ago, Duraglit shareholder said:

If Bonnyrigg are refused entry due to not having floodlights, and its a stipulation of entry to the Lowland League, then surely as a matter of fairness and integrity the 3 other teams currently playing in the LL without floodlights  should be demoted and replaced by the next best teams that have the infrustructure that meets the current criteria.That may sound harsh and provide me with a few red dots, but the treatment dished out to Bonnyrigg is unforgivable, and if the blazers are moving the goalposts about having lights, then surely entry to big Scottish Cup should only be open to teams that have them,this would hurt the team i follow but prospects of playing replays at 1pm on a weekday afternoons are ludicrous.I just dont believe the SFA want junior or ex junior teams anywhere near the top 4 leagues in Scotland so they hand out piecemeal parts like entry  to the Scottish, but not really as there are now about 3 preliminary rounds,they see what Cove done to Berwick and  then the Bonnyrigg saga,i understand now the reluctance of west juniors to join the pyramid.Scottish league football has been a closed shop for years, do you think league 2 and 3 clubs want to be in Berwicks shoes,gone are the cash handed down from tv money that stops at Lowland League level,do turkeys vote for xmas.Once teams go to expence of getting lights,it will then be"oh, you need a cartain number of seats etc etc", they'll always have ways and means to protect the established.

If "the SFA" didn't want ex-juniors in the league, why even set up the pyramid and let them in? It's not like there is any financial incentive to do it.

[Duraglit shareholder]

The three clubs in the LL without lights are existing SFA members and have been for many years. They should be granted a period of derogation in order to meet the criteria, just as the 6 clubs in the EoS without lights should also have received a period of derogation to enable them to comply. It didn't happen and the SFA should rightly be criticised for that, they have got it badly wrong.
On the flip side, the SFA admitted 6 new members so it's hardly a case of a closed shop.  The SPFL is also about to relegate a long standing member to the Lowland League, so that's not a closed shop either.
Club licencing is an ongoing process which is there to improve standards.  Seats will undoubtedly be a requirement at some point down the line, and so they should be.
None of this should be used as a tool by those who want to preserve Junior football in order to hold clubs back.
The more I hear, the more I hope the SFA close the door on the SJFA being involved in any shape or form, and instead set-up a WoSFL for those clubs who want to progress.
 
 

I'm no expert on club license or intricate on how the East of Scotland league works, but footballs integrety is called into question if Bonnyrigg are not allowed to take their place in next seasons Lowland League.If every other team in the LL had floodlights, then it could have been a bearing on allowing them promotion, but the fact 3 teams already play in that league without lights SFA licensed or not, I thought the object of a pyramid was to allow better team's the chance to progress, not put obstacles in their way. So here's my opinion, the idea of a pyramid was fine from SFA perspective when teams in LL were at a footballing level unlikely to break into SPL2 or at worse maybe once in a blue moon someone like Edinburgh City will get promotion, we can live with that.Now the blazers are realising that junior and ex junior teams won't be long in filling the LL with better quality, better run committee and larger fan bases, mean teams being relegated from League2 will find it harder to get back to the TV money if their up against Bonnyriggs, Lithgow, Bones, Talbot and Pollock eventually.Scottish football was a closed shop for years, you can't argue about that and chairmen and owners of league clubs will have friends in Hampden's corridors, and obstacles to a proper fair pyramid will continue,in my own little opinion over here in the West.My best wishes Bonnyriggs, champions,you would win the Lowland also.

[Burnie_man]

I'm no expert on club license or intricate on how the East of Scotland league works, but footballs integrety is called into question if Bonnyrigg are not allowed to take their place in next seasons Lowland League.If every other team in the LL had floodlights, then it could have been a bearing on allowing them promotion, but the fact 3 teams already play in that league without lights SFA licensed or not, I thought the object of a pyramid was to allow better team's the chance to progress, not put obstacles in their way. So here's my opinion, the idea of a pyramid was fine from SFA perspective when teams in LL were at a footballing level unlikely to break into SPL2 or at worse maybe once in a blue moon someone like Edinburgh City will get promotion, we can live with that.Now the blazers are realising that junior and ex junior teams won't be long in filling the LL with better quality, better run committee and larger fan bases, mean teams being relegated from League2 will find it harder to get back to the TV money if their up against Bonnyriggs, Lithgow, Bones, Talbot and Pollock eventually.Scottish football was a closed shop for years, you can't argue about that and chairmen and owners of league clubs will have friends in Hampden's corridors, and obstacles to a proper fair pyramid will continue,in my own little opinion over here in the West.My best wishes Bonnyriggs, champions,you would win the Lowland also.

The Lowland League does not require floodlights, but they do require a Licence. Rightly or wrongly (99.9% wrongly) Bonnyrigg have been denied a Licence. The Lowland League have no control over what you need to do to get a Licence, they have no control over who does or doesn't get one.

As for a closed shop, you do realise the biggest factor in the west region not being part of the pyramid from next season is the SJFA? The SFA wanted them in, the EoS wanted them in, the LL wanted them in, but they aren't, ask yourself why.

So rather than the big conspiracy theories, maybe start looking closer to home for the answer.

[Ginaro]

29 minutes ago, Duraglit shareholder said:

I'm no expert on club license or intricate on how the East of Scotland league works, but footballs integrety is called into question if Bonnyrigg are not allowed to take their place in next seasons Lowland League.If every other team in the LL had floodlights, then it could have been a bearing on allowing them promotion, but the fact 3 teams already play in that league without lights SFA licensed or not, I thought the object of a pyramid was to allow better team's the chance to progress, not put obstacles in their way. So here's my opinion, the idea of a pyramid was fine from SFA perspective when teams in LL were at a footballing level unlikely to break into SPL2 or at worse maybe once in a blue moon someone like Edinburgh City will get promotion, we can live with that.Now the blazers are realising that junior and ex junior teams won't be long in filling the LL with better quality, better run committee and larger fan bases, mean teams being relegated from League2 will find it harder to get back to the TV money if their up against Bonnyriggs, Lithgow, Bones, Talbot and Pollock eventually.Scottish football was a closed shop for years, you can't argue about that and chairmen and owners of league clubs will have friends in Hampden's corridors, and obstacles to a proper fair pyramid will continue,in my own little opinion over here in the West.My best wishes Bonnyriggs, champions,you would win the Lowland also.

Wait a minute, isn't there a club in the West Championship that is in 4th place having to groundshare at Benburb next season in case they get promoted? Surely football's integrity is called into question if Rossvale are not allowed to take their place in the West Premiership at their home ground.

Various levels of the pyramid have different criteria for entry. Bonnyrigg aren't the first club not to be allowed promotion from tier 6 - LTHV, Leith Athletic, St Cuthbert Wanderers, and Wigtown & Bladnoch have all been prevented from gaining promotion to the LL because they didn't have a licence.

The difference to those clubs is that Bonnyrigg have been shafted by a change in the criteria right before their were audited. The obvious solution is for the SFA to award the licence and give them a year to sort the floodlights. But even if they don't, it's only temporary as next season the EoS winner will very likely have a licence and gain promotion. 

[PRICEY]

What’s the format for promotion/relegation in the EOSL next season?.I take with a league of 16 it will be 4 down and 2 up from each of the Conferences.

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 minutes ago, PRICEY said:

What’s the format for promotion/relegation in the EOSL next season?.I take with a league of 16 it will be 4 down and 2 up from each of the 

It's not decided and won't be until agm you got told this the last time pricey

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, PRICEY said:

What’s the format for promotion/relegation in the EOSL next season?.I take with a league of 16 it will be 4 down and 2 up from each of the Conferences.

Doubt they'll do 4 down automatically. They have to take into account the potential unbalanced numbers from above.  So they've also got to have a think what happens with the EoS Premier some years. Do they have the LL fixed number of 16 clubs or do they sometimes run as 17/18 clubs?

[AlanCamelonfan]

22 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Doubt they'll do 4 down automatically. They have to take into account the potential unbalanced numbers from above.  So they've also got to have a think what happens with the EoS Premier some years. Do they have the LL fixed number of 16 clubs or do they sometimes run as 17/18 clubs?

Do think 3 down with potential 4th relegation if a lowland relegation with noone gowing up

[Born To Run]

20 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Doubt they'll do 4 down automatically. They have to take into account the potential unbalanced numbers from above.  So they've also got to have a think what happens with the EoS Premier some years. Do they have the LL fixed number of 16 clubs or do they sometimes run as 17/18 clubs?

The Lowland will never go above 16 clubs, had that confirmed earlier in the year.

I'd expect 3 relegation spots in the EoS Prem, with automatic promotion for the champs below and a 2nd place playoff for the other spot. Seems the logical solution (and just put both 2nd place teams up if the numbers dictate so).

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, Born To Run said:

The Lowland will never go above 16 clubs, had that confirmed earlier in the year.

I'd expect 3 relegation spots in the EoS Prem, with automatic promotion for the champs below and a 2nd place playoff for the other spot. Seems the logical solution (and just put both 2nd place teams up if the numbers dictate so).

It's not that the LL will go above 16. It's would the EOS Premier or will the have a fixed number like the LL.

We know the LL playoff means only one promotion spot. So there's the possibility of 2 relegated to the EoS with no promotion or just the champions promoted. That means there's the possibility of a EoS Premier of 17 or 18 clubs.

 

[Born To Run]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's not that the LL will go above 16. It's would the EOS Premier or will the have a fixed number like the LL.

We know the LL playoff means only one promotion spot. So there's the possibility of 2 relegated to the EoS with no promotion or just the champions promoted. That means there's the possibility of a EoS Premier of 17 or 18 clubs.

 

Ah, gotcha. Interesting to see if this is clarified over the summer in that case!