Pyramid 2019/2020

[Che Dail]

15 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Let's not start this again and derail the thread more. I'm sure there's a thread somewhere that's more appropriate. Suffice to say, I disagree.

Fair enough, point taken.

Although the thread topic is 'Pyramid 2019/20 'and what has just happened to Bonnyrigg is, in my opinion, a direct consequence of the failings I refer to.

Yours,

Annoyed.

 

[Cameron Wilson]

Denying Bonnyrigg promotion is anti-football, plain and simple. It would be different if their facilities were in a mess and they had no plans in place to rectify their situation. But they fulfilled the licensing conditions put to them when they paid their application fee.  And even although the rules were changed after their fee was accepted, they still will have floodlights in place by the time the new season begins. But derogation has been denied.

This is one of the more shameful things which has happened in Scottish football for quite some time and the media should be making a lot more of it. Bonnyrigg are right to hint at legal action. I hope that does not prove necessary but I wish them every success in the event it does.

For the pyramid as a whole, such systems are only as strong as their foundation which is why this regrettable situation matters so much. The SFA are just utterly incompetent. This affair is a big PR own goal as far as building the pyramid goes. Certain voices in the juniors have already latched onto Bonnyrigg's promotion denial as justification to stay outside. Who can blame them for taking that position?

This situation ultimately benefits nobody. It's hard to see what is going through the SFA's heads. What purpose does this decision serve? All that is achieved is that it makes it easier for teams who also don't meet the new licensing criteria to stay in the Lowland league. The irony is massive.

Ultimately there is no point in denying Bonnyrigg promotion. In ten years time the Lowland league will be mostly filled with ex-Juniors and relegated SFL2 sides anyway. The genie is out of the bottle, the pyramid is going to develop further one way or another. The spreading of misinformation from the juniors or the SFA moving the licensing goalposts may slow it down but it won't stop it.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Cameron Wilson

[Burnie_man]

I also posted this elsewhere.  How long do Bonnyrigg realistically have to appeal, and if they do appeal will the LL have to delay confirming promotion/relegation until the appeal is heard?

This could grow arms and legs.  I hope the media get all over this.

[gaz5]

I also posted this elsewhere.  How long do Bonnyrigg realistically have to appeal, and if they do appeal will the LL have to delay confirming promotion/relegation until the appeal is heard?
This could grow arms and legs.  I hope the media get all over this.

As do I, but unfortunately all the empty rhetoric spouted by Maxwell about grassroots success and social impacts of football study just prove that the top brass in the SFA and the media care little for this level of the game.

Maybe if Bonnyrigg adopted some new songs the SFA and media would be interested in the scandal around what most people regarded as a very easy and sensible decision.......

[The Mantis]

Whether or not Berwick lose to Cove and take up the last place in the LL this could rumble on all summer. This affects  both Bonnyrigg and Whitehill if Berwick come down as there's not enough room in the LL for both of them and they need to have some idea what's happening next season.

Edited May 8, 2019 by The Mantis

[Golum]

1 minute ago, The Mantis said:

Whether or not Berwick lose to Cove and take up the last place in the LL this could rumble on all summer. This affects  both Bonnyrigg and Whitehill if Berwick come down as there's not enough room in the LL for both of them and they need to have some idea what's happening next season.

Yet again poor WW have no idea what league they are in or not ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[The Mantis]

1 minute ago, Golum said:

Yet again poor WW have no idea what league they are in or not ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Is that poor in a financial sense or poor in a footballing sense... don't answer that  

Of course it also affects the makeup of the EOS Premier and below, which should have all been settled by now. My gut feeling is that for all the petitions and so on, Bonnyrigg won't get anywhere, but in practice it only sets their masterplan back a year, unless Penicuik or Linlithgow or somebody else can snatch the title away.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

Is that poor in a financial sense or poor in a footballing sense... don't answer that  

Of course it also affects the makeup of the EOS Premier and below, which should have all been settled by now. My gut feeling is that for all the petitions and so on, Bonnyrigg won't get anywhere, but in practice it only sets their masterplan back a year, unless Penicuik or Linlithgow or somebody else can snatch the title away.

Maybe the LL could give Bonnyrigg a years derogation of their own and allow them in as "Team 17" as a one-off?  in the current environment, I guess anything is possible.

[Marten]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Maybe the LL could give Bonnyrigg a years derogation of their own and allow them in as "Team 17" as a one-off?  in the current environment, I guess anything is possible.

That would  be a great compromise. Obviously WW can't be relegated if Bonnyrigg's appeal fails as the rules say they'd be safe in that situation, that would be unfair on them as they need certainty on which division to prepare for themselves. But adding Bonnyrigg as a one-off would be doable, then relegating the teams finishing 16th and 17th would get the division back to 16 clubs.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Marten

[Robert James]

On 08/05/2019 at 16:27, The Mantis said:

Whether or not Berwick lose to Cove and take up the last place in the LL this could rumble on all summer. This affects  both Bonnyrigg and Whitehill if Berwick come down as there's not enough room in the LL for both of them and they need to have some idea what's happening next season.

MY REQUEST TO THE SFA AND TO THE LOWLAND LEAGUE 

Apologies - see next post

Edited May 11, 2019 by Robert James
additional question added

[Robert James]

7 hours ago, Robert James said:

MY REQUEST TO THE SFA AND TO THE LOWLAND LEAGUE 

Turn the present situation from a "lose lose" for Bonnyrigg and for the SFA/Lowland League,  into a "win win" for all concerned.

How ?  Side step the issues, and go for a positive outcome.

The Lowland  is a 16 club league, with only 15 clubs for 2018/19.  As a top tier feeder league to the SPFL, it needs to be increased to an 18 club league  for 2019/20 and beyond.  A league of 16 clubs, is too few for Tier 5, and the number of league games is too low. It is out of step with other relevant  leagues - see comparisons  below. 

The BENEFITS of increasing the Lowland League, are obvious in my view.

* league games are of primary importance in the pyramid, determining the relative strengths of clubs, and giving opportunities for advancement

* two additional clubs in the Lowland League would give additional protection against relegation to Tier 6, and probably increased revenue each season from the  extra league matches

* both champions of the EoSL and the SoSL (if licensed), could be promoted to the Lowland League without requiring playoffs. This could be increased to 3 promotion opportunities to give an automatic promotion spot to the West feeder league, if one is formed. It may also help mitigate against a promotion 'logjam', when the West feeder league is created

* would strengthen the case for automatic promotion for the winner of the Lowland/Highland  champion club, as SPFL Club 42 would be relegated automatically

*  would reduce the impact on the SLL club which defeats Club 42, of having to play 6 additional league matches per season (a sizeable increase)

* and significantly, would resolve the present fiasco concerning Bonnyrigg Rose, who could be awarded a floodlight (exemption) derogation, to enable this club to be be promoted to the SLL for season 2019/20, without adversely impacting upon any other club who are currently seeking to join, or remain in the SLL, Bonnyrigg would be given the same length of time that this "derogation" is to be given to the 3 existing Lowland Clubs without floodlights. It would create a level playing field,  for the 4 clubs concerned, albeit for this season only, as everyone would know the rules for the future ! 

Comparisons......

Scotland

Premier  :  38 league matches.      Championship, League One & League Two   :   36 league matches each

Highland League  :  34 league matches  (which despite SFA pressure, the HFL doesn't wish to change)

Lowland League  :  30 matches (but only 28 matches  this season)

England 

Championship, Division One & Division Two  :  46 matches

National League  Premier :  46 matches.     National Leagues North & South  :  42 matches each

Northern Premier League, Southern League Premier Central & Premier South, Isthmian League  :   42 matches each  

Step 4 Leagues  :  38 matches in each of the seven divisions (soon to be increased to eight divisions)

Step 5 Leagues  :   mostly playing  38 matches, across fourteen divisions (also due to be increased to sixteen divisions) .

********

Yes, and I know that the SFA wants the HFL and the SLL to both have  (only) 16 clubs at this level.   But this would be an ideal time to change.

[stulch]

Turn the present situation from a "lose lose" for Bonnyrigg and for the SFA/Lowland League,  into a "win win" for all concerned.
How ?  Side step the issues, and go for a positive outcome.
The Lowland  is a 16 club league, with only 15 clubs for 2018/19.  As a top tier feeder league to the SPFL, it needs to be increased to an 18 club league  for 2019/20 and beyond.  A league of 16 clubs, is too few for Tier 5, and the number of league games is too low. It is out of step with other relevant  leagues - see comparisons  below. 
The BENEFITS of increasing the Lowland League, are obvious in my view.
* league games are of primary importance in the pyramid, determining the relative strengths of clubs, and giving opportunities for advancement
* two additional clubs in the Lowland League would give additional protection against relegation to Tier 6, and probably increased revenue each season from the  extra league matches
* both champions of the EoSL and the SoSL (if licensed), could be promoted to the Lowland League without requiring playoffs. This could be increased to 3 promotion opportunities to give an automatic promotion spot to the West feeder league, if one is formed. It may also help mitigate against a promotion 'logjam', when the West feeder league is created
* would strengthen the case for automatic promotion for the winner of the Lowland/Highland  champion club, as SPFL Club 42 would be relegated automatically
*  would reduce the impact on the SLL club which defeats Club 42, of having to play 6 additional league matches per season (a sizeable increase)
* and significantly, would resolve the present fiasco concerning Bonnyrigg Rose, who could be awarded a floodlight (exemption) derogation, to enable this club to be be promoted to the SLL for season 2019/20, without adversely impacting upon any other club who are currently seeking to join, or remain in the SLL, Bonnyrigg would be given the same length of time that this "derogation" is to be given to the 3 existing Lowland Clubs without floodlights. It would create a level playing field,  for the 4 clubs concerned, albeit for this season only, as everyone would know the rules for the future ! 
Comparisons......
Scotland
Premier  :  38 league matches.      Championship, League One & League Two   :   36 league matches each
Highland League  :  34 league matches  (which despite SFA pressure, the HFL doesn't wish to change)
Lowland League  :  30 matches (but only 28 matches  this season)
England 
Championship, Division One & Division Two  :  46 matches
National League  Premier :  46 matches.     National Leagues North & South  :  42 matches each
Northern Premier League, Southern League Premier Central & Premier South, Isthmian League  :   42 matches each  
Step 4 Leagues  :  38 matches in each of the seven divisions (soon to be increased to eight divisions)
Step 5 Leagues  :   mostly playing  38 matches, across fourteen divisions (also due to be increased to sixteen divisions) .
********
Yes, and I know that the SFA wants the HFL and the SLL to both have  (only) 16 clubs at this level.   But this would be an ideal time to change.

But the SFA wanted a (Lowland) 16 team division and wanted the Highland league reduce to 16 clubs...

[Jambo'ness]

7 hours ago, Robert James said:

Turn the present situation from a "lose lose" for Bonnyrigg and for the SFA/Lowland League,  into a "win win" for all concerned.

How ?  Side step the issues, and go for a positive outcome.

The Lowland  is a 16 club league, with only 15 clubs for 2018/19.  As a top tier feeder league to the SPFL, it needs to be increased to an 18 club league  for 2019/20 and beyond.  A league of 16 clubs, is too few for Tier 5, and the number of league games is too low. It is out of step with other relevant  leagues - see comparisons  below. 

The BENEFITS of increasing the Lowland League, are obvious in my view.

* league games are of primary importance in the pyramid, determining the relative strengths of clubs, and giving opportunities for advancement

* two additional clubs in the Lowland League would give additional protection against relegation to Tier 6, and probably increased revenue each season from the  extra league matches

* both champions of the EoSL and the SoSL (if licensed), could be promoted to the Lowland League without requiring playoffs. This could be increased to 3 promotion opportunities to give an automatic promotion spot to the West feeder league, if one is formed. It may also help mitigate against a promotion 'logjam', when the West feeder league is created

* would strengthen the case for automatic promotion for the winner of the Lowland/Highland  champion club, as SPFL Club 42 would be relegated automatically

*  would reduce the impact on the SLL club which defeats Club 42, of having to play 6 additional league matches per season (a sizeable increase)

* and significantly, would resolve the present fiasco concerning Bonnyrigg Rose, who could be awarded a floodlight (exemption) derogation, to enable this club to be be promoted to the SLL for season 2019/20, without adversely impacting upon any other club who are currently seeking to join, or remain in the SLL, Bonnyrigg would be given the same length of time that this "derogation" is to be given to the 3 existing Lowland Clubs without floodlights. It would create a level playing field,  for the 4 clubs concerned, albeit for this season only, as everyone would know the rules for the future ! 

Comparisons......

Scotland

Premier  :  38 league matches.      Championship, League One & League Two   :   36 league matches each

Highland League  :  34 league matches  (which despite SFA pressure, the HFL doesn't wish to change)

Lowland League  :  30 matches (but only 28 matches  this season)

England 

Championship, Division One & Division Two  :  46 matches

National League  Premier :  46 matches.     National Leagues North & South  :  42 matches each

Northern Premier League, Southern League Premier Central & Premier South, Isthmian League  :   42 matches each  

Step 4 Leagues  :  38 matches in each of the seven divisions (soon to be increased to eight divisions)

Step 5 Leagues  :   mostly playing  38 matches, across fourteen divisions (also due to be increased to sixteen divisions) .

********

Yes, and I know that the SFA wants the HFL and the SLL to both have  (only) 16 clubs at this level.   But this would be an ideal time to change.

That all makes too much sense.  If the SFA ever see that their heads will start to spin and they will reach for the spirit bottles again.

We all know that this country is run for only two clubs and those on the top table are just looking for the crumbs off their plate.

A courageous media would go to town on this but we all know that their principal aim would be to get two colts teams included.

[honestman54]

On 08/05/2019 at 08:42, Che Dail said:

Yes, we can.

And we should. Tip the table up and start again. Design a structure based on what is evidently successful in other small countries.

There are simply too many clubs in the 'professional' game.

In this day we only really need 2 elite top leagues, and go regional below that.  

Self interest, poor leadership and bad management will hold football back in this country until the right people, with full authority to initiate change, are appointed.

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, stulch said:

9 hours ago, Robert James said:

Turn the present situation from a "lose lose" for Bonnyrigg and for the SFA/Lowland League,  into a "win win" for all concerned.
How ?  Side step the issues, and go for a positive outcome.
The Lowland  is a 16 club league, with only 15 clubs for 2018/19.  As a top tier feeder league to the SPFL, it needs to be increased to an 18 club league  for 2019/20 and beyond.  A league of 16 clubs, is too few for Tier 5, and the number of league games is too low. It is out of step with other relevant  leagues - see comparisons  below. 
The BENEFITS of increasing the Lowland League, are obvious in my view.
* league games are of primary importance in the pyramid, determining the relative strengths of clubs, and giving opportunities for advancement
* two additional clubs in the Lowland League would give additional protection against relegation to Tier 6, and probably increased revenue each season from the  extra league matches
* both champions of the EoSL and the SoSL (if licensed), could be promoted to the Lowland League without requiring playoffs. This could be increased to 3 promotion opportunities to give an automatic promotion spot to the West feeder league, if one is formed. It may also help mitigate against a promotion 'logjam', when the West feeder league is created
* would strengthen the case for automatic promotion for the winner of the Lowland/Highland  champion club, as SPFL Club 42 would be relegated automatically
*  would reduce the impact on the SLL club which defeats Club 42, of having to play 6 additional league matches per season (a sizeable increase)
* and significantly, would resolve the present fiasco concerning Bonnyrigg Rose, who could be awarded a floodlight (exemption) derogation, to enable this club to be be promoted to the SLL for season 2019/20, without adversely impacting upon any other club who are currently seeking to join, or remain in the SLL, Bonnyrigg would be given the same length of time that this "derogation" is to be given to the 3 existing Lowland Clubs without floodlights. It would create a level playing field,  for the 4 clubs concerned, albeit for this season only, as everyone would know the rules for the future ! 
Comparisons......
Scotland
Premier  :  38 league matches.      Championship, League One & League Two   :   36 league matches each
Highland League  :  34 league matches  (which despite SFA pressure, the HFL doesn't wish to change)
Lowland League  :  30 matches (but only 28 matches  this season)
England 
Championship, Division One & Division Two  :  46 matches
National League  Premier :  46 matches.     National Leagues North & South  :  42 matches each
Northern Premier League, Southern League Premier Central & Premier South, Isthmian League  :   42 matches each  
Step 4 Leagues  :  38 matches in each of the seven divisions (soon to be increased to eight divisions)
Step 5 Leagues  :   mostly playing  38 matches, across fourteen divisions (also due to be increased to sixteen divisions) .
********
Yes, and I know that the SFA wants the HFL and the SLL to both have  (only) 16 clubs at this level.   But this would be an ideal time to change.

But the SFA wanted a (Lowland) 16 team division and wanted the Highland league reduce to 16 clubs...

The SFA doesn't always get what it wants, as has been recently become apparent. Plus the Highland League has refused to reduce to 16 clubs, 5 years on from the 16 club declaration. .

Als,o does it really want a petition in support of Bonnyrigg, potential legal action, questions in parliament, and the SFA 'losing face' ?  Yes the Old Firm dominate the corridors of power, but sometimes  even they don't win (rejection of the Colts). This could become an unpleasant saga, when the above solution is in the best interest of all sides, and would satisfy the parties concerned because :

* a stronger Lowland League, on a permanent basis

* Bonnyrigg win promotion, but only with a derogation of floodlights,with the same rights as Vale of Leithen, Civi Service, Strollers and Whitehill Welfare

* even if Berwick Rangers are relegated, there would still be a minimum of one SLL vacancy, to be filled by an eligible applicant to the Lowland. It would safeguard Dalbeattie, and potentially Whitehill, if they have applied to remain in the SLL, and this situation would not occur again in future

* enable the Lowland League to introduce floodlights as a mandatory requirement for ALL new and existing clubs, from the expiry of the derogation (as above)

* increase the number of promoted teams to the Lowland League from 2 to 3 each season, albeit in an 18 league structure, with clubs 17 & 18 being relegated if the feeder league champions are licensed (important as the number of licensed clubs will increase), and also relegate club 16 (if there is an additional SPFL club being replaced by the Highland League champions, or because an existing club 'does a Selkirk'. With an appropriate adjustment to the badly existing  written SLL clause,  club 15 could never be relegated in any circumstances

* give a greater incentive to the top West Juniors to join the pyramid : ie 2 SLL promotion places ongoing, for licensed champion clubs in the East, West and South (if all 3 champions qualify)

The Lowland League should promote the above change with the SFA, and publicise the OVERALL benefits, to be implemented at the AGM next month. 

SOME SUPPORT FROM P&B POSTERS WOULD BE APPRECIATED PLEASE

 

 

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, honestman54 said:

This could only be achieved by consensus with the clubs and leagues concerned. In Scotland we can't even agree an alignment between the Junior and Senior clubs.

 

[honestman54]

Sorry above I pinched from another forum, but it seems to make sense with only three top leagues and the rest split into three regional LLs

[Burnie_man]

25 minutes ago, Robert James said:

SOME SUPPORT FROM P&B POSTERS WOULD BE APPRECIATED PLEASE

Robert, you need to calm down a little!  people do take notice occasionally of what is posted on here but that diagram is all fantasy nonsense.

We are only at the stage of taking small baby steps towards change (at best), you've seen what the SFA attitude was to all 6 clubs without floodlights, also the attiude of the SJFA.  Change has always been and always will be slow, and we will never end up with a perfect pyramid system I'm afraid.

This thread really was about how the Pyramid will look next season, and we now know - Bonnyrigg scenario apart - what it will look like.  There is a thread somewhere on here dedicated to mad cap pyramid plans.

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Burnie_man

[Bundesliga Boy]

Personally I think the Lowland should remain at 16.

I also remember reading a few quotes from Highland teams last season stating that due to postponements etc, they are having to play games in midweek as there’s rarely any free Saturdays. This is having a significant financial impact on them. They favour going to 16 but can’t as things stand as there’s is no mechanism to do so. Sadly that is unlikely to change anytime soon.

[GNU_Linux]

Back on matters not in line with theoretical physics would I be correct in assuming no further meetings between the EOS & ERJFA are planned?