Pyramid 2019/2020

[Robert James]

7 hours ago, Spyro said:

No I never saw them but there is a big appetite for football up there.

Between Thurso, Halkirk, Orkney and Wick they really want to play competitive football but there is (rightly!) not a hope in hell for a Pentland United thing... just a case of giving them all a chance to play each other!

Having Tain (before rejoining the NCL),  (what is left of) Dornoch, Golspie and Brora all playing different associations is madness!

Same with Caithness... and there seems to be a really decent Welfare/Amateur league up there too

The NCL has improved significantly during the last 4 seasons, it has been very competitive. The League's title has been won by 5 different clubs during the last 6 years :  Orkney,  Invergordon,  Halkirk Utd,  Golspie Sutherland and Thurso.

St Duthus (Tain) and Inverness Athletic have added depth to the league, the latter now having a ground in the city of Inverness. In addition,  Alness Utd are improving, underpinned by its Youth XI  which is currently doing very well in the HFL's  U20's league.

Bunillidh Thistle (from Helmsdale) are the 9th NCL club, now in their 2nd season since rejoining the NCL, having been champions twice in the 1980's.  Lewis & Harris and Shetland FC  play in some of the NCL's cup competitions, weather and ferries permitting.   (Regretfully, competitive senior/amateur football in Dornoch seems to have died ?)

If the pyramid is 'extended' into the north of Scotland (by incorporating the Juniors),  the NCL should also be included as a (separate) feeder league), as the north Highlands & Islands would otherwise not be part of it, below 5th tier.  Furthermore if, Fort William, Clachnacuddin, Wick Academy, or Brora Rangers were (in the future), relegated from the HFL, they would almost certainly (re)join the NCL, rather than move to the Aberdeenshire centred juniors,  which would then place them outside the pyramid, if the NCL is excluded. 

Yes, football in the 'far' north is important, and should not be overlooked

 

[Robert James]

12 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The HFL have never really offered anything from what I can tell. The last time the 3 Juniors joined it was started off by Formartine United getting into a bit of huff with the Juniors following relegation. Then the other applications followed.

The HFL had been sitting at 15 clubs for 7 years at that point. Anyone could have applied to be the 16th club in that time. The closed shop idea that they get painted with is largely due to the fact they are at 18 clubs and nobody wants to be 19th. Until someone applies we'll never know how it will be treated.

 

A few years ago, the HFL passed a resolution that if two new clubs joined the league, it would split into TWO DIVISIONS of 10 clubs. Assuming this  resolution has not been rescinded, Banks O'Dee and A N Other club could activate this decision, if they applied/were accepted as HFL  members at the same time.

Unfortunately you need to be SFA members, with floodlights. Only Banks meet both criteria at present. 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, Robert James said:

A few years ago, the HFL passed a resolution that if two new clubs joined the league, it would split into TWO DIVISIONS of 10 clubs. Assuming this  resolution has not been rescinded, Banks O'Dee and A N Other club could activate this decision, if they applied/were accepted as HFL  members at the same time.

Unfortunately you need to be SFA members, with floodlights. Only Banks meet both criteria at present. 

 

That's not the way I've seen it said. It's if they exceed a membership of 20 they would split into divisions. 20 exactly they'd stay a 20 team league.

Of course if they ever even got 19 they would be a lot more proactive about things.

EDIT:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/sport-editors-picks/843506/could-breakaway-movement-tear-highland-league-apart/

Quote

 

At January’s Highland League management committee meeting a motion to form a two-league structure, if the league membership was to exceed 18, was supported by seven clubs – Brora Rangers, Buckie Thistle, Clachnacuddin, Cove Rangers, Fraserburgh, Inverurie Locos and Keith – but a counter motion, which advocated that the two-tier structure should only come into being if league membership was to exceed 20, gained support from the remaining 11 clubs and carried the day.

Since the meeting it is believed two clubs may have shifted their allegiance to the other camp. If that is the case the league would be split equally 9-9.

 

Don't think it has been voted on again since 2016 so the exceed 20 is still the official plan.

Edited March 16, 2019 by FairWeatherFan

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's not the way I've seen it said. It's if they exceed a membership of 20 they would split into divisions. 20 exactly they'd stay a 20 team league.

Of course if they ever even got 19 they would be a lot more proactive about things.

The HFL couldn't operate a 20 team league, as it would be impossible for its clubs to fit in 38 league games per season, plus cup matches.  

Highland weather, and end of season play-off requirements for the SPFL club 42/Lowland champion play-offs, would prevent it. 

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Robert James said:

The HFL couldn't operate a 20 team league, as it would be impossible for its clubs to fit in 38 league games per season, plus cup matches.  

Highland weather, and end of season play-off requirements for the SPFL club 42/Lowland champion play-offs, would prevent it. 

I was just adding the article above to my comment. They voted to only split into divisions if they exceed 20. There's been no reason to change the official plan as it's so far off with no one looking to apply and no current risk of relegation from the SPFL.

HL Champions getting promoted seems the best bet for any change as it could spur an open application process.

[Cyclizine]

The fact that @Spyro has said they didn't even go and watch any HFL football is making me take their comments with a pinch of salt, particular if they no longer live up here. HFL football is as competitive as it ever has been and the crowds seem much the same as 20 years ago to me. There's ups and downs throughout the season and some clubs are better supported than others, but it's always been like this.

@FairWeatherFan is right about any potential split of the HFL, they'd go to 20 teams before splitting, however sensible that would be. Can I ask you, @Robert James, how much involvement with the NCL and its clubs you have? Its just you come out with big statements about clubs intentions, which aren't what I'm hearing as someone based up here.

The Highlands has a very competitive Summer amateur and welfare scene (indeed, many NCL players are involved with Summer clubs, which can cause issues at the start and end of the season). 

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

The NCL has improved significantly during the last 4 seasons, it has been very competitive...

I agree with you about the importance of the far north and all the rest, but the standard... hmm. I watched Invergordon v Orkney a few weeks ago and it's the first time I've went to watch a game that I could have played in when I was younger. You can get a sense of the level through Golspie's recent Scottish Cup results:

2018 Golspie 1-4 Burntisland (2nd bottom of EOS Conference B, only Eyemouth with a 100% losing record below them)

2017 Glenafton 6-1 Golspie

2016 Banks O'Dee 4-0 Golspie

2015 Golspie 1-6 Cove Rangers

2014 Golspie 1-4 Dalbeattie

[cmontheloknow]

10 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I agree with you about the importance of the far north and all the rest, but the standard... hmm. I watched Invergordon v Orkney a few weeks ago and it's the first time I've went to watch a game that I could have played in when I was younger. You can get a sense of the level through Golspie's recent Scottish Cup results:

2018 Golspie 1-4 Burntisland (2nd bottom of EOS Conference B, only Eyemouth with a 100% losing record below them)

2017 Glenafton 6-1 Golspie

2016 Banks O'Dee 4-0 Golspie

2015 Golspie 1-6 Cove Rangers

2014 Golspie 1-4 Dalbeattie

And here's some highlights of Golpsie v St Duthus from a few weeks back

 

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I was just adding the article above to my comment. They voted to only split into divisions if they exceed 20. There's been no reason to change the official plan as it's so far off with no one looking to apply and no current risk of relegation from the SPFL.

HL Champions getting promoted seems the best bet for any change as it could spur an open application process.

I agree, especially as Cove are determined to get into the SPFL, but it will be  more difficult to do so if west clubs join the pyramid and get licensed. 

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

The fact that @Spyro has said they didn't even go and watch any HFL football is making me take their comments with a pinch of salt, particular if they no longer live up here. HFL football is as competitive as it ever has been and the crowds seem much the same as 20 years ago to me. There's ups and downs throughout the season and some clubs are better supported than others, but it's always been like this.

@FairWeatherFan is right about any potential split of the HFL, they'd go to 20 teams before splitting, however sensible that would be. Can I ask you, @Robert James, how much involvement with the NCL and its clubs you have? Its just you come out with big statements about clubs intentions, which aren't what I'm hearing as someone based up here.

The Highlands has a very competitive Summer amateur and welfare scene (indeed, many NCL players are involved with Summer clubs, which can cause issues at the start and end of the season). 

"Which aren't what I'm hearing" ?  Examples please ?

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Robert James said:

I agree, especially as Cove are determined to get into the SPFL, but it will be  more difficult to do so if west clubs join the pyramid and get licensed. 

Could very well happen this year. Favourites for the HL and 1-1 against the Lowland League champions in previous playoffs.

[Robert James]

13 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Could very well happen this year. Favourites for the HL and 1-1 against the Lowland League champions in previous playoffs.

No easy ride for Cove to win the HFL this year

Cove   R               28    77   +74  

Brora R                29    74    +82

Fraserburgh     30    70     +80

Brora Rangers  v  Cove Rangers on 23/3/19 could be the title decider ? 

[FairWeatherFan]

25 minutes ago, Robert James said:

No easy ride for Cove to win the HFL this year

Cove   R               28    77   +74  

Brora R                29    74    +82

Fraserburgh     30    70     +80

Brora Rangers  v  Cove Rangers on 23/3/19 could be the title decider ? 

I'd say it's a bit of must win for Brora. With Cove already have a 3 point advantage and a game against Fort William, they'd have a pretty solid edge over Brora in the last few weeks of the season.

Brora Rangers

23/03/2019 v. Cove Rangers
30/03/2019 v. Nairn County
13/04/2019 @  Deveronvale

@ Wick Academy
@ Clachnacuddin

Cove Rangers

23/03/2019 @  Brora Rangers
30/03/2019 v. Wick Academy
13/04/2019 @  Forres Mechanics

v. Clachnacuddin
@  Keith
@  Fort William

 

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

"Which aren't what I'm hearing" ?  Examples please ?

I asked you, though. You've been mentioning about Thurso going for a licence  an d made some suggestions about other teams as well. I'm not having a go, just I've heard none of this and I'm based up here. You might have more contacts than I do though!

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'd say it's a bit of must win for Brora. With Cove already have a 3 point advantage and a game against Fort William, they'd have a pretty solid edge over Brora in the last few weeks of the season.

Brora Rangers

23/03/2019 v. Cove Rangers
30/03/2019 v. Nairn County
13/04/2019 @  Deveronvale

@ Wick Academy
@ Clachnacuddin

Cove Rangers

23/03/2019 @  Brora Rangers
30/03/2019 v. Wick Academy
13/04/2019 @  Forres Mechanics

v. Clachnacuddin
@  Keith
@  Fort William

 

I hope you are right. Cove deserve it in my opinion.

[Robert James]

4 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

I asked you, though. You've been mentioning about Thurso going for a licence  an d made some suggestions about other teams as well. I'm not having a go, just I've heard none of this and I'm based up here. You might have more contacts than I do though!

When Thurso joined the NCL, they were quoted as being ambitious, and were aiming initially in establishing themselves in the NCL, improving the ground, and becoming a member of the SFA. Longer term, they advised me that Highland League membership was an ambition, either as an independent club, or as "Caithness United" (building on a strong youth base), within 10 years or so.. Unfortunately it didn't happen as envisaged, even though it was much easier at that time to get a licence, than it is now. I still take an interest in Thurso, in particular, and am currently concerned about Golspie's SFA membership, given the new floodlight criteria. 

As a kid, I supported Inverness Thistle and recall being very disappointed when they failed to get elected to the Scottish League :  as I recall, Meadowbank (Ferranti Thistle  were successful instead.  I do have an NCL 'management' contact, but prefer not to say who it is, as I no longer live in the Highlands, which is a shame. However, I am still a visitor to the north & west, and the Scottish isles.  This is the reason why I sometimes ask for clarification of news, etc, eg: recently  seeking an update about Inverness City, and the Kirkhill proposal, which seems to have died ?.

I see that Orkney  0  Golspie   1  (today),  means that the latter are NCL champions for this season. Congratulations.

 

 

[Robert James]

On 15/03/2019 at 15:47, Spyro said:

Travel costs have soared.

Paying support has dwindled.

The lose of Caledonian, Thistle, Elgin, Peterhead are still really hurting teams.

Lack of derby’s hurting the Moray teams.

Introduction of Aberdeen teams, along with Wick and Fort William (more travelling)

The Highland league is MUCH different now than it was even 30 years ago....

........................and Ross County !   (They left as well).

If in the future, an operational pyramid  (with promotion & relegation) is formed in the north, by the inclusion of the juniors at tiers 6 & 7, then the NCL would also seek feeder league status, thereby ensuring that clubs to the north and west of Inverness, are not excluded.  It would also provide a league at tier 6 level, for HFL clubs like Wick, Fort William, and Brora to be relegated into, should this become necessary in future years. These 'remote' Highland clubs (plus possibly Clachnacuddin ?) would not wish to join an Aberdeenshire (and Tayside ?)  based junior league; nor would the existing North Region Juniors,  want them  joining their leagues.   

Initial pyramid  discussions have taken place, but are unlikely to be concluded any time soon in the north'''.........and certainly not until the West & East Juniors' situation, has been sorted out.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Robert James
additional question added

[lionel hutz]

On 3/15/2019 at 02:54, Spyro said:

I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and I know I’ll get hell for some of the ideas here, but here is a different perspective on things...

FORGET who the actual teams are in each league and look at the structure itself, along with the playoff systems, I think it will sort out the “strong league v weak league” issue. The only issue is some clearly weak league playing along side stronger but so what if promotion/relegation is fair?!

 

Obvisiously it’s already too far gone to do things this way,  but I really think it’s the only sensible way of doing this...

league reconstruction.pdf

That is genuinely horrendous.

Top patter putting Junior Teams straight into Tier 3, that did make me chuckle.

[Dylangt7]

missed this post originally......did I miss the Vale of Leven on that .pdf somewhere?

maybe they were above teir 3 and thats why i missed them !!

[superbigal]

Okay I have a little meat to put on the bone. I will post identically on the Junior thread and on the EOS thread.  Again I express what I either have in fact or what I am reliably informed. Do not shoot the messenger as I believe I am "a reporting neutral with a few  critical views" and just want the best for everyone going forward.  

To start with one of the few subjective points I have previously made is describing (Wrongly in some opinions) John Greenhorn as what looks like a "Dinasaur" in terms of his apparent contributions to the Lower Sub-Group of the Pyramid working Group. Even his defenders were puzzled by some of the points I made.  This view is again fairly critical in light of what I have heard.  Anyway I ramble so to cut to the chase.

Apparently regarding the recent PWG meeting there have been no minutes circulated as yet.  What I have been told is the meeting was short and sweet around only 40-50 mins. I have heard Mr Maxwell said little to nothing throughout the meeting. I have heard (Not 100% sure who in person but assume Maxwell)  the SFA was not happy with the apparent EOS attitude and stalling. The EOS were still aggrieved about the Juniors potentially continuing their own fixtures and discipline while in the pyramid.  Once again they were told the SFA department could not cope with an extra 140 clubs that is why the SFA are content to allow the Juniors to continue administrating these things.  I have no other details but will post the full minutes as they should become available to myself when circulated.

The meeting on Monday between the associations was apparently illuminating. I am told it was not particularly a good one for John Greenhorn. David Baxter the EOS League secretary  played a significant role (He has never been involved for the EOS on the PWG) and came across very well to the Junior side of the meeting. Mr Baxter fired a few questions to Tom Johnston (Yes he was their for the East juniors)  Mr Baxter was apparently suprised at TJ's responses to questions fired at him regarding the PWG meetings. These answers apparently had a different slant on things as to what Mr Geenhorn had been reporting back.  Mr Baxter rightly would back Mr Greenhorn, however doubts surfaced when this included a question from Mr Baxter who asked TJ if he had any idea on the dates for the next PWG & SFA Board meetings. TJ gave him the dates 14th & 18th April. Mr Baxter asked TJ how he knew this, and TJ replied all the delegates including the EOS PWG representatives received an email with the dates.  Mr Baxter asked Mr Greenhorn  why he didn't pass this on and apparently Mr Greenhorn tried to blag his way out of a tricky situation. I am informed from the Junior side that  Mr Baxter may now have some doubts as to the 100% credibility of information being fed back to the EOS board.

Unfortunately for everyone on P&B with all their merger/amalgamation set ups etc, there was no discussion about bringing the regions together, but both parties have agreed to meet again for further talks after the PWG & SFA meeting in April.

To summarise even if everything I have printed above is 100% true ,it really means either nothing has moved forward or the Maxwell position is still in play. Hopefully the PWG minutes will shed some more light in due course. Hopefully minutes will also surface from the meeting between the associations.

Edited March 22, 2019 by superbigal