Pyramid 2019/2020

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, craigkillie said:

The current two-region split is already pretty unbalanced in terms of number, and shifting the line north  is only going to increase that imbalance. A three-region solution would solve that somewhat - the alternative is perhaps awarding the Lowland more promotion spots in the eventual set-up.

Not sure the solution but the potential of Montrose v Stranraer in the Lowland League is silly (IMO).

[Ginaro]

4 hours ago, virginton said:

It will be far more difficult to restructure anything once the majority of clubs are inside the tent pissing out - and defending their own self interest - than at this stage in the process. The idea that an existing and logical split should be disregarded just because a handful of Tayside junior outfits might have a strop otherwise is utterly ridiculous. They can and should be pushed into the setup by the continued decline of their Junior region. 

If the ambition is for three regions at tier 5, that can only be achieved once there are enough licensed clubs, which will take a few years. In the meantime the objective should be to get everyone in the east together in the one league system, and to me the positives of bringing in Tayside clubs to the EOS outweigh the negatives. So long as no Tayside team gets a licence and wins the EOS, then there really isn't that much of a problem.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Ginaro

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

Not sure the solution but the potential of Montrose v Stranraer in the Lowland League is silly (IMO).

Is Montrose to Wick any less silly? Or, for that matter, Aberdeen to Wick? The line has to be drawn somewhere, and those nearer to it lose out. You could argue for three regions at Tier 5, but I don't think there's an appetite for it.

There's no right answer to any of this, it's just a question of who loses out, in what way, and by how much. My own opinion is that, at least initially, Angus, Dundee and Perthshire clubs should be allowed to choose. But I don't think that's acceptable to many clubs either.

[cmontheloknow]

10 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Is Montrose to Wick any less silly? Or, for that matter, Aberdeen to Wick? The line has to be drawn somewhere, and those nearer to it lose out. You could argue for three regions at Tier 5, but I don't think there's an appetite for it.

There's no right answer to any of this, it's just a question of who loses out, in what way, and by how much. My own opinion is that, at least initially, Angus, Dundee and Perthshire clubs should be allowed to choose. But I don't think that's acceptable to many clubs either.

You already get those journeys in the Highland League and Wick is 'off the charts' remote from the major cities. Stranraer is not.

Ultimately, what I am trying to say is while both Stranraer and Montrose could claim the right to be Lowland League, including both makes the geographic spread too large (IMO).

Edited March 14, 2019 by cmontheloknow

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

Not sure the solution but the potential of Montrose v Stranraer in the Lowland League is silly (IMO).

Dundee and Montrose are really not that far apart when compared to something like Annan to Wick so it's a stretch to claim that it makes a critical difference in the big scheme of things either going south or north. I'm skeptical that the HL and SPFL clubs care about this enough for it to be some sort of red line for them moving forward.

[cmontheloknow]

11 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Dundee and Montrose are really not that far apart when compared to something like Annan to Wick so it's a stretch to claim that it makes a critical difference in the big scheme of things either going south or north. I'm skeptical that the HL and SPFL clubs care about this enough for it to be some sort of red line for them moving forward.

But as it stands, Dundee's not in LL either. The LL catchment becomes almost unwieldly with the addition of Dundee and Angus. The imbalance (geographically and population-wise) at tier 5 will need to be addressed at some point.

Edited March 14, 2019 by cmontheloknow

[LongTimeLurker]

It's Scottish football. We have a team from England on board and a glorified pub league at tier 6 in the shape of the SoS league and nobody bats an eyelid. If it suits the interests of the HL and SPFL clubs to shift the boundary a bit, it will get shifted. If the top junior clubs move up en masse to the LL the Borders and Galloway clubs will all get relegated as the years pass and the most extreme place involved moving south west is a lot more likely to be somewhere like Auchinleck than Stranraer with the bulk of the teams based not that far from the M8.

Edited March 14, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[John S]

You already get those journeys in the Highland League and Wick is 'off the charts' remote from the major cities. Stranraer is not.
Ultimately, what I am trying to say is while both Stranraer and Montrose could claim the right to be Lowland League, including both makes the geographic spread too large (IMO).

Fort William to Wick 344 mls round trip. Well over 3 hour journey one way

[Marshmallo]

I wouldn't let clubs in eg Angus choose which league they were to play in, but I would have floater regions in the middle who can be moved North or South depending on promotion/relegation between tiers.

[FairWeatherFan]

One thing I will say about the idea of a fluid boundary for certain areas. I wouldn't have the clubs be the one to choose.

The terminology at the minute among the LL/EOS/SOS is something along the lines of all 3 agree who would go where at the start of the season.

You could put something similar in place for the clubs in the Tayside area looking for promotion to tier 5 from the East side of the country.

[vikingTON]

3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

If the ambition is for three regions at tier 5, that can only be achieved once there are enough licensed clubs, which will take a few years. In the meantime the objective should be to get everyone in the east together in the one league system, and to me the positives of bringing in Tayside clubs to the EOS outweigh the negatives. So long as no Tayside team gets a licence and wins the EOS, then there really isn't that much of a problem.

'Let's bullshit our way through until we need to cobble together another solution for the higher tier' is not actually a credible plan. The place for Tayside clubs is quite clearly alongside those in Angus and Aberdeenshire to form a credible feeder to the HL instead of playing the likes of Tweedmouth just to replicate the boundaries of a failed Junior setup. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by vikingTON

[Burnie_man]

'Let's bullshit our way through until we need to cobble together another solution for the higher tier' is not actually a credible plan. The place for Tayside clubs is quite clearly alongside those in Angus and Aberdeenshire to form a credible feeder to the HL instead of playing the likes of Tweedmouth instead to replicate the boundaries of a failed Junior setup. 

The actual set-up or structure of the Junior Pyramid didn't itself fail. It was pretty much pefect apart from the Tayside question. IMO they should have gone with the NRJFA back in 2002 but instead they came to the ERJFA.

I do think they should now feed into the HL, that's the obvious place for them to be, but it appears the HL are not fussed, the Tayside clubs don't want to, and the SFA can't force them. That is probably a fair summary of where we are.

So perhaps it's just better to bite the bullet and get them into the EoS or a merged organisation and take it from there. At least then it would facilitate Junior clubs coming into the pyramid in their entirety in west and east, rather than the impasse we have.

At some point the north needs dealt with, and then the Tayside issue can finally be sorted and a solution found.

[vikingTON]

It won't be possible to find a credible solution for the north if Tayside clubs are already admitted within a different setup; if a viable feeder gets set up for the NE region then those clubs would oppose being put in their right feeder league - all the more effectively once they're actually inside the tent with everyone else. 

The only leverage that the SFA has to bring about a balanced and functioning national setup involves sticking to the one firm dividing line that everyone has just agreed on and obliging clubs to find their place either side of that. Once you start moving those goalposts then the Tier 5 structure as it stands currently is destined to fail.  And sorting that predictable mess out would make Brexit seem like a stunning piece of effective governance. 

[Burnie_man]

It won't be possible to find a credible solution for the north if Tayside clubs are already admitted within a different setup; if a viable feeder gets set up for the NE region then those clubs would oppose being put in their right feeder league - all the more effectively once they're actually inside the tent with everyone else. 
The only leverage that the SFA has to bring about a balanced and functioning national setup involves sticking to the one firm dividing line that everyone has just agreed on and obliging clubs to find their place either side of that. Once you start moving those goalposts then the Tier 5 structure as it stands currently is destined to fail.  And sorting that predictable mess out would make Brexit seem like a stunning piece of effective governance. 

They oppose it now, so what then? We'll continue to have a rump of Junior clubs in the east which the EoS (rightly) will continue to veto coming into the pyramid. One or two may move each year to EoS but the ERJFA will try to stem that.

If it has to be that way then so be it, but if there is an alternative solution of offer then it's right that it is explored further to see what can be achieved.

[vikingTON]

Kicking the can along the road until later and up to Tier 5 when an even bigger set of restructuring is required in the future isn't a credible solution though.  

[Burnie_man]

Kicking the can along the road until later and up to Tier 5 when an even bigger set of restructuring is required in the future isn't a credible solution though.  

Neither is stalemate and a war of attrition. Might all be immaterial anyway if the meeting doesn't find any concensus.

[Enigma]

A LL covering, what 70%? Of Scotland’s population would be a complete joke. Tayside clubs must go North.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

A LL covering, what 70%? Of Scotland’s population would be a complete joke. Tayside clubs must go North.

Exactly or they have to do something about parity.

[GordonS]

4 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

You already get those journeys in the Highland League and Wick is 'off the charts' remote from the major cities. Stranraer is not.

Ultimately, what I am trying to say is while both Stranraer and Montrose could claim the right to be Lowland League, including both makes the geographic spread too large (IMO).

Stranraer is as much an outlier for a potential Tier 5 club as is Wick. Their next nearest potential opponent is north of Ayr, over 1 hr 15 mins away. That's further than Wick to Brora.  The proximity to major cities is irrelevant, the vast majority of HL and LL clubs aren't based in cities.

Montrose in the HL would have 4 trips above or around 2.5 hours each way, and only one closer than an hour.

But yeah, I still agree with you anyway, I can just see why Tayside clubs aren't happy about it. And Montrose is about 50 minutes closer to the HL clubs than those in Dundee are.

[LongTimeLurker]

How much parity in population terms is there going to be between the SoS and the WRSJFA as feeders at tier 6? If it's convenient to enough clubs from a travel standpoint to secure a consensus something that has obvious issues can easily be approved in a Scottish football context.