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Burnie_man

Pyramid 2019/2020

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11 minutes ago, humphrey said:

 

the trouble on here is a lot of posts on here are determined to push Tayside teams into the highland catchment area when its obviously completely impractical. luncarty took 2and3/4 hours on a bus to reach elgin for an sjfa cup tie.  breadalbanes nearest game would be in inverness 123 miles to the north whereas they are within easy reach of perth/Dundee or fife for that matter.

The dividing line is already in place, it's been there since the Lowland League was introduced in 2013.

Therefore, if Tayside (and some Perthshire) clubs want to enter the Pyramid structure and access SFA Licencing, then as it stands, they need to enter a Senior league that sits within the Highland League area.  Currently there isn't one apart from the Highland League itself, hence why a Tayside Senior League has been mooted as a solution if the remaining East Region Junior clubs want to enter the Pyramid, with the Lothians and Fife clubs joining the existing East of Scotland League.

A line has to be drawn somewhere. A Tayside Senior League would ultimately feed into the Highland League.

Of course, Breadalbane can apply again to join the ERJFA meantime, and wait on further developments with regards to the Pyramid and therefore Licencing.

Edited by Burnie_man

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1 hour ago, humphrey said:

 

the trouble on here is a lot of posts on here are determined to push Tayside teams into the highland catchment area when its obviously completely impractical. luncarty took 2and3/4 hours on a bus to reach elgin for an sjfa cup tie.  breadalbanes nearest game would be in inverness 123 miles to the north whereas they are within easy reach of perth/Dundee or fife for that matter.

Probably the two main reasons it happens.

1) Simple enforcement of the HL/LL boundary as it stands. The SFA, SPFL, HFL and LL worked with a blank slate and intentionally drew the line as the mid point of the Tay Bridge making it clear that Dundee would fall into the Highland League area. Even when Montrose speculated relegation to the Highland League could be the death of the club nobody batted an eye and the boundary has remained.

2) There isn't a ton of depth in the North Region and NCL to improve the present standard of the Highland League. Its a small sample size but look at Montrose Roselea. They've gone from bouncing between East Premier/District level and are now firmly in the North Super League. Clubs that have a greater track record in the East Region like Lochee United, Broughty Athletic and Carnoustie Panmure should hopefully replicate or improve upon the performance of Montrose Roselea.

A line's got to be drawn somewhere and regionalisation down pyramid tiers will prevent extreme journeys as much as possible.

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5 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Probably the two main reasons it happens.

1) Simple enforcement of the HL/LL boundary as it stands. The SFA, SPFL, HFL and LL worked with a blank slate and intentionally drew the line as the mid point of the Tay Bridge making it clear that Dundee would fall into the Highland League area. Even when Montrose speculated relegation to the Highland League could be the death of the club nobody batted an eye and the boundary has remained.

2) There isn't a ton of depth in the North Region and NCL to improve the present standard of the Highland League. Its a small sample size but look at Montrose Roselea. They've gone from bouncing between East Premier/District level and are now firmly in the North Super League. Clubs that have a greater track record in the East Region like Lochee United, Broughty Athletic and Carnoustie Panmure should hopefully replicate or improve upon the performance of Montrose Roselea.

A line's got to be drawn somewhere and regionalisation down pyramid tiers will prevent extreme journeys as much as possible.

please be aware Tayside clubs are not going north, and the highland and north east clubs are not going Tayside. they all know it would be logistical madness to even consider any merger between these two regions. study the map guys and add up the miles, its not rocket science and easy to see why other more sensible options are being considered.

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1 minute ago, humphrey said:

please be aware Tayside clubs are not going north, and the highland and north east clubs are not going Tayside. they all know it would be logistical madness to even consider any merger between these two regions. study the map guys and add up the miles, its not rocket science and easy to see why other more sensible options are being considered.

Interesting, you seem to be piping the tune of someone else who posts here from Dundee.  It's entirely sensible that Tayside goes North, and in fact that is exactly how it is now as has been pointed out. The dividing line says Dundee is HL territory, so is Aberfeldy.

Adding up the miles, Aberfeldy to Inverness, Aberdeen and Peterhead (HL area) is almost the same travel time as Edinburgh, Berwick and Gretna (LL area), so it shouldn't be of great concern if you ever reached that level.   Short term, you join the ERJFA - if they let you in this time - and go wherever they go.  Good luck, and don't believe everything the ERJFA tell you.

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39 minutes ago, humphrey said:

please be aware Tayside clubs are not going north, and the highland and north east clubs are not going Tayside. they all know it would be logistical madness to even consider any merger between these two regions. study the map guys and add up the miles, its not rocket science and easy to see why other more sensible options are being considered.

The majority of Tayside clubs will probably not have to travel much further than the Aberdeen area on league duty. Dundee to Aberdeen and Dundee to Edinburgh there isn't much difference.

It's the bigger clubs that would actually make Tier 5 Highland League that are scared of trips to Brora and Wick but think Gretna and Dalbeattie is fine when looking at the Lowland League.

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What Breadalbane does show is that a simple line of latitude is probably not the best solution. 

There are several potential alternative border lines that could be drawn but every one has disadvantages for some teams: 

Current Tay Bridge mid point Latitude line
Tayport cut off from Dundee,
Luncarty, Blairgowrie, Coupar Angus, Breadalbane cut off from Perth teams,
Scone Thistle north of Tay but in LL area.

River North Esk or Angus / Aberdeenshire border
Montrose Roselea forced back to East Region / LL

River South Esk,
Brechin Victoria force into North Region / HL

Perth / Angus border
Blairgowrie, Coupar Angus cut off from Dundee teams

River Earn or Kinross-shire - Fife boundary 
Tayport cut off from Dundee,
Jeanfield Swifts forced back to Tayside / HL

Slightly further south Latitude line (Mugdrum island in the Tay for example)
Allows Tayport in Tayside while keeping Newburgh and St Andrew's in the LL area
Would force a potential Oban based team into the HL rather than West Region which would probably be more viable. 
Jeanfield Swifts forced back to Tayside / HL

Perhaps the best option in terms of keeping all the clubs happy would be for Angus clubs to be able to choose themselves whether to go north or south but with Perthshire, Argyll and Fife clubs definitely being south. Moving the dividing line like that though would seriously reduce the HL catchment and make the overall balance of clubs much more lopsided. 

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Tayside could've gone North when the three regional JFAs were formed. The Tayside clubs still play North Region clubs in the GA Cup.

Travelwise, it makes little difference, I presume the issue for many clubs will be where players are based - I imagine many will have players from Fife/Central/Lothians who might be unkeen to travel north.

To keep regions roughly balanced in number, then some teams will have to move north. The other option, which would require more relegation places from SPFL would be to fix the promotion/playoff places relative to the number of licenced clubs in each area; so the deeper Lowland pyramid isn't disadvantaged over the shallower Highland one. At the moment, seeing as the number of licenced clubs is roughly equal, it's not an issue, but it soon will be.

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On 04/01/2019 at 23:09, humphrey said:

please be aware Tayside clubs are not going north, and the highland and north east clubs are not going Tayside. they all know it would be logistical madness to even consider any merger between these two regions. study the map guys and add up the miles, its not rocket science and easy to see why other more sensible options are being considered.

I love these sorts of comments.  Why dont you look at the Scottish Rugby Union set up and see that in Division THREE Orkney travel south to Carrick in Ayrshire and vice versa and many other clubs make these very long journeys on a lot less income

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I love these sorts of comments.  Why dont you look at the Scottish Rugby Union set up and see that in Division THREE Orkney travel south to Carrick in Ayrshire and vice versa and many other clubs make these very long journeys on a lot less income
Do Orkney not pay towards opponents travel?

Travel is a major issue to many teams - they often want the status but not always the associated travel.

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Just over 12 months to the day that Dalkeith Thistle declared they were moving to the East of Scotland League, who could have predicted what happened next.

I wonder if there will be any similar announcements this year.

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2 hours ago, honestman54 said:

I love these sorts of comments.  Why dont you look at the Scottish Rugby Union set up and see that in Division THREE Orkney travel south to Carrick in Ayrshire and vice versa and many other clubs make these very long journeys on a lot less income

Carrick to Orkney isn't even the longest journey as Newton Stewart are in that league as well! However teams do get payments from the SRU to cover expenses when they travel to the islands. Although, this season a team from Hawick declined promotion from the east region to the national leagues as there'd be too much travelling.

As for the SOS mentioned on the previous page - the first thing to do would be to ask the clubs if any of them want to play at a Lowland or West regional level. Because if no one wants to play in the LL, then you can just remove the league from the tier 6 play-off.

Of course it's hard to know where the SOS fits into the West Region so you could have a promotion play-off with the 3rd place in League One for example, so the level of the SOS champions can be judged. Or restructure the West's bottom tiers into regional divisions again and incorporate the SOS into there.

It might be a bit of an issue if Dalbeattie were to be relegated this season as they would presumably rejoin the SOS and want to try and get back to the LL. If the West is going to be tier 6 feeder next season then they should be made to accept relegated teams from the south west.

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On 02/01/2019 at 22:50, FairWeatherFan said:

This is from the Lowland League rules relating to the play-off between the LL/HL/SPFL42

image.png.1cbccea707542950bd7386f1bb219d2c.png

Then when it comes to relegation only the East of Scotland and South of Scotland are named.

 

Just going back to this particular point, the rules surrounding the play-off to the LL are worded the same, and any amendments to those play-off rules must be agreed by the SFA, LL, EoS and SoS.

So quite simply, if the WRJFA and ERJFA are dropped into the Pyramid, the SFA/LL/EoS/SoS would all have to agree to alter the play-off rules to accomodate those two extra leagues.  There would also need to be alterations to stipulate where relegated LL clubs go to if there are two parrallel leagues operating in the East. That's not to mention the HL/LL boundary needing to be being changed.

In short, there needs to be agreement, and I don't believe there has even been discussions around this as no plan has been presented to the PWG.

Something to bear in mind when you see "done deal" being banded around for Juniors entering the Pyramid.

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7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Just going back to this particular point, the rules surrounding the play-off to the LL are worded the same, and any amendments to those play-off rules must be agreed by the SFA, LL, EoS and SoS.

So quite simply, if the WRJFA and ERJFA are dropped into the Pyramid, the SFA/LL/EoS/SoS would all have to agree to alter the play-off rules to accomodate those two extra leagues....

Which constitution did you see this in? The EoS or LL one?  Would be good to nail this down to the point it is beyond debate.

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1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Which constitution did you see this in? The EoS or LL one?  Would be good to nail this down to the point it is beyond debate.

I don't believe it's online and I've only seen a copy, but the rules and regulations are almost identical to the one online covering SPFL/LL, which probably makes sense. 

The crucial bit is worded;     "Any amendment to these Pyramid Play-Off Rules must be agreed by each of the Scottish FA, SLFL, EoSFL and SoSFL prior to it becoming effective."

I guess that is why the EoS are not getting too stressed about all of this at the moment as they know there is no agreement, and any proposal would probably have to be agreeed by the Boards and/or members of the three leagues involved, if and when the plan is revealed.

From what I was told, there is no guarantee any agreement will be reached in time for next season.

 

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Definitely amounts to a veto and explains how Dev's scenario would come into play of ERSJFA clubs being able to get licensed but having to progress through the EoS to reach the LL or apply to the HL depending what side of the boundary they are on.

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1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Definitely amounts to a veto and explains how Dev's scenario would come into play of ERSJFA clubs being able to get licensed but having to progress through the EoS to reach the LL or apply to the HL depending what side of the boundary they are on.

Possible, but as I said nobody has seen any plans.

If that was what was proposed, there's zero incentive for WL and Fife clubs to continue in the ERJFA, and they'd as well move to EoS for next season.

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52 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Which constitution did you see this in? The EoS or LL one?  Would be good to nail this down to the point it is beyond debate.

The LL rules basically say admission to the league is either by relegation from the SPFL or promotion from the EOS/SOS play-off, so that is the one thing that needs to change for the Juniors to be in the pyramid.

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I am sure I heard a comment on tv news that Mr Maxwell is holding a meeting this month with all SPFL chairmen in attendance and the agenda is “The future of Scottish Football” Maybe his plan some of which has been leaked will be announced. Has anyone any information on this meeting?

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23 minutes ago, Vollyman said:

I am sure I heard a comment on tv news that Mr Maxwell is holding a meeting this month with all SPFL chairmen in attendance and the agenda is “The future of Scottish Football” Maybe his plan some of which has been leaked will be announced. Has anyone any information on this meeting?

No , go away:)

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