Pyramid 2019/2020

[Deanburn Dave]

A decent compromise would be the new clubs coming in at tier 8 and having 4 go up at the end of the season to tier 7.

[falkirktv]

11 minutes ago, Deanburn Dave said:

A decent compromise would be the new clubs coming in at tier 8 and having 4 go up at the end of the season to tier 7.

That would be a fair way to do it

[FairWeatherFan]

Rougly how a Tier 7 could look based on current standings and if everyone in the East Region moved across. Also the idea that LL champ is promoted with Brechin relegated which should lead to the EoS Premier needing a fourth side promoted to it from the current conferences. You could add Eyemouth to bottom of Conference A if you wanted. Feels a bit unneccessary when you can have 16 of those clubs playing First Division football for a season and another 4 getting promoted from the Second Division.

A	14	Blackburn United	B	15	Whitehill Welfare	C	16	Newtongrange Star
A	3	Dunipace	B	3	Glenrothes	C	4	Heriot-Watt University
A	4	Edinburgh United	B	5	Haddington Athletic	C	5	Preston Athletic
A	6	Kinnoull	B	6	Dalkeith Thistle	C	7	St Andrews United
A	7	Coldstream	B	8	Oakley United	C	8	Stirling University (EoS)
A	9	Burntisland Shipyard	B	9	Tweedmouth Rangers	C	10	Ormiston
A	10	Easthouses Lily MW	B	11	Hawick Royal Albert United	C	11	Peebles Rovers
A	12	Arniston Rangers	B	12	Craigroyston	C	1	Livingston United
A	2	Pumpherston Juniors	B	3	Armadale Thistle	C	4	Fauldhouse United
A	5	Whitburn Juniors	B	6	Thornton Hibs	C	7	Bathgate Thistle
A	8	Harthill Royal	B	9	Kennoway Star Hearts	C	10	Lochore Welfare
A	7	Tayport	B	8	Scone Thistle	C	1	Rosyth
A	2	Stoneyburn Juniors	B	3	Newburgh Juniors	C	4	Kirkcaldy & Dysart
A	5	Sauchie Community	B	6	Lochgelly Albert	C	7	Linlithgow Rose Community
A	8	Syngenta	B	9	Bo'ness United Juniors	C	10	West Calder United

 

[Burnie_man]

44 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Rougly how a Tier 7 could look based on current standings and if everyone in the East Region moved across. Also the idea that LL champ is promoted with Brechin relegated which should lead to the EoS Premier needing a fourth side promoted to it from the current conferences. You could add Eyemouth to bottom of Conference A if you wanted. Feels a bit unneccessary when you can have 16 of those clubs playing First Division football for a season and another 4 getting promoted from the Second Division.

A	14	Blackburn United	B	15	Whitehill Welfare	C	16	Newtongrange Star
A	3	Dunipace	B	3	Glenrothes	C	4	Heriot-Watt University
A	4	Edinburgh United	B	5	Haddington Athletic	C	5	Preston Athletic
A	6	Kinnoull	B	6	Dalkeith Thistle	C	7	St Andrews United
A	7	Coldstream	B	8	Oakley United	C	8	Stirling University (EoS)
A	9	Burntisland Shipyard	B	9	Tweedmouth Rangers	C	10	Ormiston
A	10	Easthouses Lily MW	B	11	Hawick Royal Albert United	C	11	Peebles Rovers
A	12	Arniston Rangers	B	12	Craigroyston	C	1	Livingston United
A	2	Pumpherston Juniors	B	3	Armadale Thistle	C	4	Fauldhouse United
A	5	Whitburn Juniors	B	6	Thornton Hibs	C	7	Bathgate Thistle
A	8	Harthill Royal	B	9	Kennoway Star Hearts	C	10	Lochore Welfare
A	7	Tayport	B	8	Scone Thistle	C	1	Rosyth
A	2	Stoneyburn Juniors	B	3	Newburgh Juniors	C	4	Kirkcaldy & Dysart
A	5	Sauchie Community	B	6	Lochgelly Albert	C	7	Linlithgow Rose Community
A	8	Syngenta	B	9	Bo'ness United Juniors	C	10	West Calder United

 

45 clubs and only 3 promotion spots.  Illustrates why Conferences next season wouldn't be good.

[Guest]

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Second tier 8
Third tier 9

Or

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Conferences tier 8

Clubs have worked tirelessly to get themselves to a position in their leagues where they would form a first division to then spend another season in a conference set up fighting with up to 44 teams for promotion as opposed to 15.

Sadly, clubs who stayed junior and chose (chose being the important word) not to move should come in at the lowest possible entry point. This will be set by the votes if current eos member clubs.

[honestman54]

3 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Second tier 8
Third tier 9

Or

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Conferences tier 8

Clubs have worked tirelessly to get themselves to a position in their leagues where they would form a first division to then spend another season in a conference set up fighting with up to 44 teams for promotion as opposed to 15.

Sadly, clubs who stayed junior and chose (chose being the important word) not to move should come in at the lowest possible entry point. This will be set by the votes if current eos member clubs.

agreed but I would have a a second division at tier 8 and conferences at tier 9 for the future

[FairWeatherFan]

21 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Second tier 8
Third tier 9

Or

Premier tier 6
First tier 7
Conferences tier 8

Clubs have worked tirelessly to get themselves to a position in their leagues where they would form a first division to then spend another season in a conference set up fighting with up to 44 teams for promotion as opposed to 15.

Sadly, clubs who stayed junior and chose (chose being the important word) not to move should come in at the lowest possible entry point. This will be set by the votes if current eos member clubs.

I think you could go down as far Tier 9 if necessary long term. When you look at how things divide up regionally Fife and Edinburgh/East teams are fine but West Lothian clubs would get split quite poorly. The four region wide leagues has worked out reasonably well in the West so far and certainly haven't been too many complaints over travel from existing EoS clubs that i've noticed.

It just comes down to the idea of widening the pyramid the further down you get to try and make it more accessible.

[Ginaro]

@FairWeatherFan can you do your fancy coloured tables for a full merger with Juniors at tier 8, showing both tier 8 conferences and regional scenarios?

[FairWeatherFan]

19 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

@FairWeatherFan can you do your fancy coloured tables for a full merger with Juniors at tier 8, showing both tier 8 conferences and regional scenarios?

Technically. I gave up on the regional one when I found out how annoying splitting West Lothian would be. I'll have a bash.

EDIT: Everything's obviously based on current standings. I haven't included Eyemouth since they're not officially returning yet as far as i'm aware.

So for the seeded Conferences I tried to follow the rules used by the EoS previously. When setting up the First Division Conferences this year it was League Position, Pts, GD that determined the higher ranking. Everyone else is just based on league position and what league they're in.

EoS Second Division Conference A			EoS Second Division Conference B
1	9	Burntisland Shipyard	1	9	Tweedmouth Rangers
2	10	Ormiston	2	10	Easthouses Lily MW
3	11	Hawick Royal Albert United	3	11	Peebles Rovers
4	12	Arniston Rangers	4	12	Craigroyston
5	1	Livingston United	5	2	Pumpherston Juniors
6	3	Armadale Thistle	6	4	Fauldhouse United
7	5	Whitburn Juniors	7	6	Thornton Hibs
8	7	Bathgate Thistle	8	8	Harthill Royal
9	9	Kennoway Star Hearts	9	10	Lochore Welfare
10	7	Tayport	10	8	Scone Thistle
11	1	Rosyth	11	2	Stoneyburn Juniors
12	3	Newburgh Juniors	12	4	Kirkcaldy & Dysart
13	5	Sauchie Community	13	6	Lochgelly Albert
14	7	Linlithgow Rose Community	14	8	Syngenta
15	9	Bo'ness United Juniors	15	10	West Calder United

 

Regional

EoS Second Division “North”			EoS Second Division “South”
1	9	Burntisland Shipyard	1	9	Tweedmouth Rangers
2	12	Craigroyston	2	10	Ormiston
3	6	Thornton Hibs	3	10	Easthouses Lily MW
4	9	Kennoway Star Hearts	4	11	Hawick Royal Albert United
5	10	Lochore Welfare	5	11	Peebles Rovers
6	7	Tayport	6	12	Arniston Rangers
7	8	Scone Thistle	7	1	Livingston United
8	1	Rosyth	8	2	Pumpherston Juniors
9	3	Newburgh Juniors	9	3	Armadale Thistle
10	4	Kirkcaldy & Dysart	10	4	Fauldhouse United
11	5	Sauchie Community	11	5	Whitburn Juniors
12	6	Lochgelly Albert	12	7	Bathgate Thistle
13	7	Linlithgow Rose Community	13	8	Harthill Royal
14	8	Syngenta	14	2	Stoneyburn Juniors
15	9	Bo'ness United Juniors	15	10	West Calder United

Edited February 16, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[Gordon EF]

4 hours ago, Myles Offside said:

"All the rest" joined two seasons ago in 3 conferences of 13 teams with the existing EoS clubs.

Yes, at the lowest existing level of the current structure.

[Dev]

4 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Looking at the bottom 4 from each Conference you can see that most of them of picked up their points against each other. Geographically Burntisland is the only one that would be in a different regional division. So you can see why they might want to play against each other instead of being split across Conferences again.

• Burntisland Shipyard (5-2-0) 17 of their 26 points
• Tweedmouth Rangers (4-1-5) 13 of their 16 points
• Ormiston (3-2-2) 11 of their 13 points
• Hawick Royal Albert United (2-3-6) 9 of their 12 points
• Easthouses Lily MW (3-0-2) 9 of their 12 points
• Arniston Rangers (2-1-3) 7 of what would have been 15 points if not for the 6 point deduction
• Peebles Rovers (2-2-3) 8 of their 8 points
• Craigroyston (0-2-4) 2 of their 3 points
   

 

If the numbers of incoming Juniors are there (who knows yet?) then place them in parallel division(s) for the first season. At the end of that season they would be EoS  clubs so what's the problem?

[Dev]

3 hours ago, falkirktv said:

That would be a fair way to do it

Good idea.

[Dev]

5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

 

In summary, you're still banging the drum to let current Junior clubs enter at a higher level than current members of the EoS. 

That didn't happen two years ago (and not a single ex-Junior club expected or demanded it), it didnt happen last year, and it won't happen this year.  It's nonsense to expect anything otherwise.

No club in WL and Fife who are still Juniors are going to join the EoS and start dishing out hammerings. How many East Junior games have you seen this season?

Yes. I am banging the drum. There are more than 20,000 posts on this thread alone about, in effect, what are the divisions in non-league football. 

It's time to close down these divisions, if only, in the east. Don't give reluctant remain Junior clubs more reason to hold back or to be recalcitrant if they do move over. Look at the future. Another sacrifice now could help this process. In any case clubs would still find their true level - and a lot sooner than some here would like!

[Dev]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

45 clubs and only 3 promotion spots.  Illustrates why Conferences next season wouldn't be good.

Hence go for a separation with two Tier 7 conferences and two Tier 8 conferences. All with smaller divisions and inter-conference games. As long as they know what they are playing for i.e. the next season, then all is sorted.

You show a potential 45 clubs so divide them into four groups/conferences. Never mind that there will be clubs without league games each weekend. Cup games might be used tpo help that situation?

[Burnie_man]

Yes. I am banging the drum. There are more than 20,000 posts on this thread alone about, in effect, what are the divisions in non-league football. 
It's time to close down these divisions, if only, in the east. Don't give reluctant remain Junior clubs more reason to hold back or to be recalcitrant if they do move over. Look at the future. Another sacrifice now could help this process. In any case clubs would still find their true level - and a lot sooner than some here would like!

Try and understand that the EoS is open to application and it us upto Junior clubs whether they join or not. There is nothing wrong in these clubs staying Junior if that is what they want.

If they want to join the EoS they will be made welcome and join at the lowest level, no different to the 3 clubs who joined the ERJFA last season.

There won't be a merger with Junior clubs entering at a higher level than existing EoS members. The ERJFA didn't want a merger as is there right.

[Burnie_man]

Hence go for a separation with two Tier 7 conferences and two Tier 8 conferences. All with smaller divisions and inter-conference games. As long as they know what they are playing for i.e. the next season, then all is sorted.

You show a potential 45 clubs so divide them into four groups/conferences. Never mind that there will be clubs without league games each weekend. Cup games might be used tpo help that situation?

Hence go for Premier - First - Second with any new applicants entering the second.

 

"Never mind that there will be clubs without league games each weekend" aye sounds brilliant [emoji23][emoji85]

 

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, Dev said:

If the numbers of incoming Juniors are there (who knows yet?) then place them in parallel division(s) for the first season. At the end of that season they would be EoS  clubs so what's the problem?

Its got nothing to do with the Juniors and their status. Nobody cares on that point.

Most of the clubs in the First Division have already gone through two seasons of upheaval for the sake of finding parity. They've already found it. You can basically look at the tables. The top 8 in each Conference is pretty clearly above the bottom 4 with Burntisland being the exception.

When you can have 16 teams playing each other of a similar standard and 8 teams playing against each other of a similar standard. Why wouldn't you? 16 teams can get a season of stability after two years and the other 8 will have more chance of playing each other instead of split apart again.

[Guest]

I agree. If enough teams join they can have conferences at either tier 8 or tier 9.

Clubs have found parity over 2 seasons. No need to find parity again.

Its got nothing to do with the Juniors and their status. Nobody cares on that point.
Most of the clubs in the First Division have already gone through two seasons of upheaval for the sake of finding parity. They've already found it. You can basically look at the tables. The top 8 in each Conference is pretty clearly above the bottom 4 with Burntisland being the exception.
When you can have 16 teams playing each other of a similar standard and 8 teams playing against each other of a similar standard. Why wouldn't you? 16 teams can get a season of stability after two years and the other 8 will have more chance of playing each other instead of split apart again.

[amigan]

I do think that depending on the number of new sides that apply it makes sense to regionalise at tier 8.  It will make it more sustainable in the long run for some of the smaller clubs in terms of travel.

[Gordon EF]

If they can get to 16-16-16 (8 additional sides), that makes sense. If it's more then regionalising or conferencing at tier 8 makes sense.