Pyramid 2019/2020

[Marten]

Nah, they will go to the North Caledonian League.

[Che Dail]

11 hours ago, Marten said:

Also, Dunipace being in the WRJFA was a geographical oddity. You moving to the EOS fixed this oddity, it didn't create one.

CORRECT.  Would be good to put this to bed once and for all:

Dunipace is in Falkirk Council = now in EoS 

Fauldhouse is in West Lothian = please go to EoS  

Harthill's GROUND is in West Lothian = please go to EoS  

The End

 

FALKIRK:

 

WEST LOTHIAN:

[Black & Red Socks]

CORRECT.  Would be good to put this to bed once and for all:
Dunipace is in Falkirk Council = now in EoS [emoji106]
Fauldhouse is in West Lothian = please go to EoS  [emoji106]
Harthill's GROUND is in West Lothian = please go to EoS  [emoji106]
The End

100% this. The argument elsewhere that there should be no fixed geographical boundary between west and east because not too many teams will choose to take advantage of it really is quite bamboozling when a simple rule as above takes care of any issues and let’s clubs know where they stand. Should it be otherwise and one club takes advantage of being close to only a notional border to move to a region outwith their hitherto natural area then you can be sure that others will look to follow. What’s good for the goose and all that.

[Dev]

For those who may be interested here are the Points Per Game League Tables for the EoS and the south of Tay Bridge Juniors as at 14th Feb, 2020:

East of Scotland Premier Division

Pos				P	GD	PTS	ppg
1	Bo'ness Utd			20	20	46	2.300
2	Hill of Beath H			17	25	36	2.117
4	Broxburn Ath			17	9	32	1.882
3	Camelon J			19	5	33	1.736
5	Tranent J			19	9	31	1.631
8	Jeanfield Sw			16	8	26	1.625
6	Dundonald B			17	13	27	1.588
7	Penicuik Ath			17	8	27	1.588
9	Linlithgow R			17	4	24	1.411
10	Musselburgh Ath			19	-3	23	1.210
11	Crossgates Pr			21	-18	23	1.095
13	Dunbar Utd			18	-8	19	1.055
12	Sauchie J			21	-10	20	0.952
14	Blackburn Utd			19	-22	17	0.894
15	Whitehill W			18	-15	16	0.888
16	Newtongrange S			21	-25	15	0.714

 

East of Scotland 1st Division Conference A

Pos				P	GD	PTS	ppg
6	Kinnoull FC			16	33	37	2.312
1	Lothian Th HV			23	31	51	2.217
2	Leith Ath			23	33	50	2.173
3	Dunipace			24	40	48	2.000
4	Heriot Watt Univ			23	24	40	1.739
5	Haddington Ath			22	30	38	1.727
7	St Andrews Utd			22	24	35	1.590
8	Oakley Utd			19	1	28	1.473
9	Burntisland S			18	12	25	1.388
10	Ormiston			19	-44	13	0.684
11	Peebles Rov			20	-69	8	0.400
12	Craigroyston			24	-94	3	0.125

 

East of Scotland 1st Division Conference B

Pos				P	GD	PTS	ppg
1	Tynecastle			23	103	65	2.826
2	Inverkeithing HS			19	21	42	2.210
3	Glenrothes			21	17	41	1.952
4	Edinburgh Utd			19	21	35	1.842
5	Preston Ath			20	16	33	1.650
6	Dalkeith Th			22	3	33	1.500
7	Coldstream			22	-9	31	1.409
8	Stirling Univ (EOSFL)			25	-39	23	0.920
9	Tweedmouth Rgrs			23	-41	16	0.695
10	Easthouses LMW			18	-24	12	0.666
11	Hawick RAU			22	-50	11	0.500
12	Arniston Rgrs			21	-39	9	0.428

 

 

SJFA East Region Superleagues (South of Tay Bridge Clubs)

Pos				P	GD	PTS	ppg
1	Livingston Utd			19	19	36	1.894
2	Pumpherston J			17	10	32	1.882
4	Fauldhouse Utd			16	5	30	1.875
6	Thornton H			15	17	28	1.866
3	Armadale Th			17	14	31	1.823
5	Whitburn J			18	8	29	1.611
7	Bathgate Th			14	4	17	1.214
7	Tayport			16	-10	17	1.062
8	Scone Th			18	-27	16	0.888
8	Harthill R			17	-25	14	0.823
9	Kennoway SH			18	-21	13	0.722
10	Lochore W			15	-31	8	0.533

 

 

SJFA East Region South Premier League

Pos				P	GD	PTS	ppg
2	Stoneyburn J			18	45	42	2.333
1	Rosyth			22	34	49	2.227
4	Kirkcaldy & D			17	10	32	1.882
3	Newburgh J			22	9	39	1.772
5	Sauchie C			20	-3	30	1.500
6	Lochgelly Alb			23	-7	30	1.304
8	Linlithgow RCom			22	-12	26	1.181
7	Syngenta			24	-8	26	1.083
9	Bo'ness Utd J			21	-5	19	0.904
10	West Calder Utd			19	-63	0	0.000

 

[Dev]

If the EoS is currently canvassing its' clubs about the structure of the league in 2020/21 would it be a sound move to also consider what should be done if the south of Tay Bridge Juniors move over en-masse (with or without the OK from the Juniors Associations)? If there is a plan in place for that possibility and this was made public then these clubs would be in a better position to know how things would stand if there was, in effect, a voluntary merger brought about by the movement of the clubs rather than by any official agreement with the ERJFA/SJFA?

One idea for 2020/21 could be :

Tier 6 : EoS Premier Division (16 clubs)

Tier 7 : EoS Division One (12 clubs) and ER South Juniors SuperLeague (12 clubs) in parallel Conferences with 12 additional inter-conference games to give additional games and to help the mixing of the two sets of clubs.

Tier 8 : EoS Division Two (12 clubs) and ER South Juniors PremierLeague (10 clubs) in parallel Conferences with inter-conference games to give additional games and to help the mixing of the two sets of clubs. Other new clubs, including Eyemouth Utd (hopefully) could be incorporated into one of these Divisions. If there were many extra clubs then the size of the Tier 7 Divisions could be increased.

This would give in the region of 63 clubs playing within the same league structure.

It would be essential for clubs to know what position in the final tables would place them in which division for the 2021/22 season i.e. they would know what they are playing for. The league structure for 2021/22 would have to be set out at the start of 2020/21. Maybe 16 - 16 - then 16 north and 16 south for season 2021/22 or even 16 - 14 - 14 with regional conferences (with inter-conference games) below that?

This would allow clubs to find their place according to playing ability within a season of max two seasons.

It would also give all clubs certainty about the future so that decisions/plans could be made over matters such as the Development League, Club Licencing, etc. 

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, Dev said:

If the EoS is currently canvassing its' clubs about the structure of the league in 2020/21 would it be a sound move to also consider what should be done if the south of Tay Bridge Juniors move over en-masse (with or without the OK from the Juniors Associations)? If there is a plan in place for that possibility and this was made public then these clubs would be in a better position to know how things would stand if there was, in effect, a voluntary merger brought about by the movement of the clubs rather than by any official agreement with the ERJFA/SJFA?

One idea for 2020/21 could be :

Tier 6 : EoS Premier Division (16 clubs)

Tier 7 : EoS Division One (12 clubs) and ER South Juniors SuperLeague (12 clubs) in parallel Conferences with 12 additional inter-conference games to give additional games and to help the mixing of the two sets of clubs.

Tier 8 : EoS Division Two (12 clubs) and ER South Juniors PremierLeague (10 clubs) in parallel Conferences with inter-conference games to give additional games and to help the mixing of the two sets of clubs. Other new clubs, including Eyemouth Utd (hopefully) could be incorporated into one of these Divisions. If there were many extra clubs then the size of the Tier 7 Divisions could be increased.

This would give in the region of 63 clubs playing within the same league structure.

It would be essential for clubs to know what position in the final tables would place them in which division for the 2021/22 season i.e. they would know what they are playing for. The league structure for 2021/22 would have to be set out at the start of 2020/21. Maybe 16 - 16 - then 16 north and 16 south for season 2021/22 or even 16 - 14 - 14 with regional conferences (with inter-conference games) below that?

This would allow clubs to find their place according to playing ability within a season of max two seasons.

It would also give all clubs certainty about the future so that decisions/plans could be made over matters such as the Development League, Club Licencing, etc. 

Any ERJFA clubs who move to the EoS will join at whatever the clubs decide is the bottom tier.  Any suggestion that these clubs go into next season at a higher tier than existing members who made the move two years ago or last year would go down like a lead balloon.  The ERJFA refused to talk merger during recent talks with the EoS, I don't think any further meetings are planned, could be wrong.

There has been quite a bit of interest I believe anyway and I think you may find a good portion of those remaining ERJFA clubs south of the line will move. A "merger" will happen naturally.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Burnie_man

[GordonS]

FWIW, Dunipace is further west than Shotts, and no-one cares about local government boundaries.

[Gordon EF]

20 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Any ERJFA clubs who move to the EoS will join at whatever the clubs decide is the bottom tier.  Any suggestion that these clubs go into next season at a higher tier than existing members who made the move two years ago or last year would go down like a lead balloon.  The ERJFA refused to talk merger during recent talks with the EoS, I don't think any further meetings are planned, could be wrong.

There has been quite a bit of interest I believe anyway and I think you may find a good portion of those remaining ERJFA clubs south of the line will move. A "merger" will happen naturally.

Agreed. 'Zippering' junior clubs in based on some judgement of relative strength IMO is something that should only have been available when the possibility of some kind of more formal and mutual merger of the juniors and the pyramid structure below the SPFL was a possibility.

That didn't happen. We're in a position now where individual junior clubs have to make the move themselves.

The whole point of the pyramid is that it gives clubs the opportunity to find a level they earn the right to play at. That's a princple that should be stuck to and that means that new entrants should start at the bottom of the pyramid, whatever that level is in their geographical area.

The relevant bodies should absolutely not be taking the view of 'imagine how strong the LL could be in a couple of years if we jimmy the rules to let in more of the bigger junior clubs'. Everyone will find their level and clubs will get there once the earn that.

I do think more promottion / relegation should be opened up into the LL and into SPFL2 but that's on the grounds of competitive fairness.

[Dev]

Whether or not the EoS canvasses clubs about my suggestion is up to the league and if the clubs are consulted they will have the opportunity to express their views without fear or favour.

This is about getting clubs together without stirring up unnecessary difficulties and this is one way to get the job done. If the clubs are consulted then they make the decision, don't they? Since when is that an issue?

Isn't it time that the hatchet was buried once and for all? This would be a way to do that - but the clubs would have the choice to accept or reject.

I'm concerned that this is sorted out quickly and without rancour. This is the time when it could all be wrapped up and everyone can move forward. No more hammerings for the weaker clubs week in week out. A Tier 8 which is regionalised so that it forms a natural stepping stone for any clubs wishing to move up from amateur or youth levels etc. Maybe the chance to re-engage with Bordrs football etc?

At the end of the day why on earth reject even a consultation with clubs? They reject it? Fine, then move on. 

[Burnie_man]

Whether or not the EoS canvasses clubs about my suggestion is up to the league and if the clubs are consulted they will have the opportunity to express their views without fear or favour. This is about getting clubs together without stirring up unnecessary difficulties and this is one way to get the job done. If the clubs are consulted then they make the decision, don't they? Since when is that an issue? Isn't it time that the hatchet was buried once and for all? This would be a way to do that - but the clubs would have the choice to accept or reject.

I'm concerned that this is sorted out quickly and without rancour. This is the time when it could all be wrapped up and everyone can move forward. No more hammerings for the weaker clubs week in week out. A Tier 8 which is regionalised so that it forms a natural stepping stone for any clubs wishing to move up from amateur or youth levels etc. Maybe the chance to re-engage with Bordrs football etc?

At the end of the day why on earth reject even a consultation with clubs? They reject it? Fine, then move on. 

 

 

Erm.....the clubs were consulted a few weeks ago and as a result have 2 options in front of them, one of which will be adopted, decision probably next week. Neither include the ERJFA because the ERJFA dont want to merge. They dont need outside help to organise themselves. As I said, I'd be very surprised if we dont see a significant shift from Junior to Senior by next season anyway.

 

Don't be concerned.

 

 

 

 

 

[never been to scotland]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

If the EoS is currently canvassing its' clubs about the structure of the league in 2020/21 would it be a sound move to also consider what should be done if the south of Tay Bridge Juniors move over en-masse (with or without the OK from the Juniors Associations)? If there is a plan in place for that possibility and this was made public then these clubs would be in a better position to know how things would stand if there was, in effect, a voluntary merger brought about by the movement of the clubs rather than by any official agreement with the ERJFA/SJFA?

One idea for 2020/21 could be :

Tier 6 : EoS Premier Division (16 clubs)

Tier 7 : EoS Division One (12 clubs) and ER South Juniors SuperLeague (12 clubs) in parallel Conferences with 12 additional inter-conference games to give additional games and to help the mixing of the two sets of clubs.

Tier 8 : EoS Division Two (12 clubs) and ER South Juniors PremierLeague (10 clubs) in parallel Conferences with inter-conference games to give additional games and to help the mixing of the two sets of clubs. Other new clubs, including Eyemouth Utd (hopefully) could be incorporated into one of these Divisions. If there were many extra clubs then the size of the Tier 7 Divisions could be increased.

This would give in the region of 63 clubs playing within the same league structure.

It would be essential for clubs to know what position in the final tables would place them in which division for the 2021/22 season i.e. they would know what they are playing for. The league structure for 2021/22 would have to be set out at the start of 2020/21. Maybe 16 - 16 - then 16 north and 16 south for season 2021/22 or even 16 - 14 - 14 with regional conferences (with inter-conference games) below that?

This would allow clubs to find their place according to playing ability within a season of max two seasons.

It would also give all clubs certainty about the future so that decisions/plans could be made over matters such as the Development League, Club Licencing, etc. 

The era of artificial divides is coming to an end. Why do you want to drag it out?

[zenon]

Could mods change the thread title to Pyramid 2020-21? It's all about next season now we're discussing. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by zenon

[FairWeatherFan]

20 minutes ago, Dev said:

Whether or not the EoS canvasses clubs about my suggestion is up to the league and if the clubs are consulted they will have the opportunity to express their views without fear or favour.

This is about getting clubs together without stirring up unnecessary difficulties and this is one way to get the job done. If the clubs are consulted then they make the decision, don't they? Since when is that an issue?

Isn't it time that the hatchet was buried once and for all? This would be a way to do that - but the clubs would have the choice to accept or reject.

I'm concerned that this is sorted out quickly and without rancour. This is the time when it could all be wrapped up and everyone can move forward. No more hammerings for the weaker clubs week in week out. A Tier 8 which is regionalised so that it forms a natural stepping stone for any clubs wishing to move up from amateur or youth levels etc. Maybe the chance to re-engage with Bordrs football etc?

At the end of the day why on earth reject even a consultation with clubs? They reject it? Fine, then move on. 

Erm. Getting this sorted quickly went by a long time ago.

The vast majority of clubs left in the East Region able to apply to the EoS were regularly in the North & South Divisions which is basically what a EoS Second Division level. Only about a half dozen were regularly in the Super/Premier. And it's not they're powerhouses. So there's no need to merge for fear of hammerings.

You can look at Glenrothes losing 8-1 one week against St Andrews, Then beating conference leaders Leith the next.

[Dev]

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Erm.....the clubs were consulted a few weeks ago and as a result have 2 options in front of them, one of which will be adopted, decision probably next week. Neither include the ERJFA because the ERJFA dont want to merge. They dont need outside help to organise themselves. As I said, I'd be very surprised if we dont see a significant shift from Junior to Senior by next season anyway.

 

Don't be concerned.

 

 

 

 

 

Current Junior Clubs joining on an individual basis is what I'm thinking not an official merger. It would be far easier for East Junior clubs to make decisions if they had some idea where they would be placed in next season's EoS.

Things appear to have moved rapidly since the consultation which you mention i.e. hints of more clubs looking to switch.

What were the two Option put to the clubs? Sorry if I missed this here.

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, Dev said:

Current Junior Clubs joining on an individual basis is what I'm thinking not an official merger. It would be far easier for East Junior clubs to make decisions if they had some idea where they would be placed in next season's EoS.

Things appear to have moved rapidly since the consultation which you mention i.e. hints of more clubs looking to switch.

What were the two Option put to the clubs? Sorry if I missed this here.

The two options are continuation of Conferences next season, or Premier-First-Second.

 

 

[Dev]

14 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Erm. Getting this sorted quickly went by a long time ago.

The vast majority of clubs left in the East Region able to apply to the EoS were regularly in the North & South Divisions which is basically what a EoS Second Division level. Only about a half dozen were regularly in the Super/Premier. And it's not they're powerhouses. So there's no need to merge for fear of hammerings.

You can look at Glenrothes losing 8-1 one week against St Andrews, Then beating conference leaders Leith the next.

Not that it matters particularly right now. However, clubs made what many think were bad decisions i.e. to remain Junior. They made a mistake but let them recover from that rather than penalise them. Look forward not backwards.

Checking 2017/18 shows Kennoway Star Hearts were in the  Super League. Fauldhouse, Tayport, Thornton, Bathgate and Whitburn in the Premier Division. Pumpherston (and Armadale?) were coming up to this division. Surely that would approximate to the current EoS Tier 7?

[never been to scotland]

6 minutes ago, Dev said:

Not that it matters particularly right now. However, clubs made what many think were bad decisions i.e. to remain Junior. They made a mistake but let them recover from that rather than penalise them. Look forward not backwards.

Checking 2017/18 shows Kennoway Star Hearts were in the  Super League. Fauldhouse, Tayport, Thornton, Bathgate and Whitburn in the Premier Division. Pumpherston (and Armadale?) were coming up to this division. Surely that would approximate to the current EoS Tier 7?

They can recover by getting promoted to tier 7. Why should they jump ahead of teams like Arniston who chose to move?

[Gordon EF]

5 minutes ago, Dev said:

Not that it matters particularly right now. However, clubs made what many think were bad decisions i.e. to remain Junior. They made a mistake but let them recover from that rather than penalise them. Look forward not backwards.

Checking 2017/18 shows Kennoway Star Hearts were in the  Super League. Fauldhouse, Tayport, Thornton, Bathgate and Whitburn in the Premier Division. Pumpherston (and Armadale?) were coming up to this division. Surely that would approximate to the current EoS Tier 7?

In principle, it is exactly what the clubs who made the jump earlier were offered. Go in at the bottom and work your way up.

Kelty could have said two seasons ago "We're surely much better than half of the current Lowland League teams". They'd be right. But they started at the bottom. Because parachuting them in higher would completely go against the principles of the pyramid.

If clubs are all in favour of this, let them work that out themselves, fair enough. I'd just personally be against it.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Dev said:

Not that it matters particularly right now. However, clubs made what many think were bad decisions i.e. to remain Junior. They made a mistake but let them recover from that rather than penalise them. Look forward not backwards.

Checking 2017/18 shows Kennoway Star Hearts were in the  Super League. Fauldhouse, Tayport, Thornton, Bathgate and Whitburn in the Premier Division. Pumpherston (and Armadale?) were coming up to this division. Surely that would approximate to the current EoS Tier 7?

Nobody is being penalised. Clubs apply to join the EoS and if accepted they will join at the lowest level as new members. 

The EoS aren't there to fix other people's bad decisions to the detriment of their own members.

The door will always be open to new clubs, and everyone will be made very welcome.

[FairWeatherFan]

14 minutes ago, Dev said:

Not that it matters particularly right now. However, clubs made what many think were bad decisions i.e. to remain Junior. They made a mistake but let them recover from that rather than penalise them. Look forward not backwards.

Checking 2017/18 shows Kennoway Star Hearts were in the  Super League. Fauldhouse, Tayport, Thornton, Bathgate and Whitburn in the Premier Division. Pumpherston (and Armadale?) were coming up to this division. Surely that would approximate to the current EoS Tier 7?

The only time the 2017-18 standings matter was heading into 2018-19.

Livingston United finished 12th in the South Division in 2017-18. Currently top all those clubs in the South Super League. Things have moved on.