Pyramid 2019/2020

[parsforlife]

Do we think as rumoured over the next few days the junior z plan gets a no, the Lowland League announce their own West feeder at tier 6 and open up for applications, could we see the old firm apply for their colt teams/a version of development team to enter? That could be a curve ball. We know they have tried and failed for tier 5 & above. At tier 6 while not everyone may like the idea of old firm or any spfl colt team being there, you could imagine the attraction of two fully sold out home games a season against the old firm could be in proving a sweetener to encourage most of the big west junior clubs to move over, and could be hard for the proposed LL West feeder league to say no given there is already the precedence of spfl reserve teams at tier 6 all be it capped at that level as per the SOS. We also know the sfa are keen for spfl reserve teams to be in the pyramid. 

There is precedent for reserve sides at tier 6 yes but do the OF want to drop that low? How many players are likely to develop significantly at that level?

The SFA seem to have let go of their push for OF colts. I’ve no doubt it will come back on the agenda but it’s smashed out the park at every turn even when they talked of paying for the privilege.

The idea of sell out crowds is complete fantasy, neither side attract any fans to challenge cup games and whilst a small amount makes a bigger difference at a lower level it’s still too small to convince anyone and that’s before you consider any possible affect on home fans.

They are welcome to apply and might get in but I see no significant benefit to either the OF or the other clubs in the league.

[morley]

True the crowd sizes in the challange Cup have been poor following the old firm colts and its maybe not the level they want to be at. But I could imagine a scenario where the sfa and spfl could say a prerequest of their support for the LL West feeder league being that the LL look again at opening up to old firm colts at tier 5 but with the compromise being that they start at tier 6 in the new west feeder league so meaning they atleast have to go through 1 level of promotion. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by morley

[parsforlife]

True the crowd sizes in the challange Cup have been poor following the old firm colts and its maybe not the level they want to be at. But I could imagine a scenario where the sfa and spfl could say a prerequest of their support for the LL West feeder league being that the LL look again at opening up to old firm colts at tier 5 but with the compromise being that they start at tier 6 in the new west feeder league so meaning they atleast have to go through 1 level of promotion. 

Why would the spfl and to a lesser extent the SFA insist on such a bizarre clause?  They don’t want B sides in the spfl so why would they push for them?   Remember last summer there has been changes to the spfl board with one of the biggest opponents to B sides being voted in.  

 

[morley]

Let's say the LL only end up with 7 or 8 teams applying for the West feeder. What happens then as not enough for a competitive league, the LL may actually need spfl B sides to make up the numbers anyway. 

[parsforlife]

Let's say the LL only end up with 7 or 8 teams applying for the West feeder. What happens then as not enough for a competitive league, the LL may actually need spfl B sides to make up the numbers anyway. 

I believed i already covered this.

They are welcome to apply and might get in but I see no significant benefit to either the OF or the other clubs in the league.

Reserve sides as fixture fillers at the lowest part of the pyramid generally are accepted. It’s one of the few benefits they can bring.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, morley said:

Let's say the LL only end up with 7 or 8 teams applying for the West feeder. What happens then as not enough for a competitive league, the LL may actually need spfl B sides to make up the numbers anyway. 

You'd more likely see Lowland League clubs fill it with their reserve sides to keep things ticking over. Caledonian Braves transfer from SOS. BSC Glasgow putting in a team.

I would also point you to the EoS First Division 2014-15 edition.

You could get away with a 8 team league if absolutely necessary.

[Guest]

I hope the old firm keep their colts teams as far away from the lower levels of the pyramid as they can. I'd personally have little interest in playing either. Thats why they get reserve leagues.

I wouldn't want any of the nonsense that follows either club amongst our midst further down the pyramid.

[Burnie_man]

I don't think they would be interested without the ability to be promoted to the LL/SPFL.

I think a new WoSFL would easily get the numbers required to kick-off next season.  It's just a question of getting the nod to get it going.

PWG meeting this afternoon, so I guess we'll hear something soon, although it wouldn't surprise me if someone tries to kybosh it, or delay it.

[FairWeatherFan]

33 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

PWG meeting this afternoon, so I guess we'll hear something soon, although it wouldn't surprise me if someone tries to kybosh it, or delay it.

Personally don't think we'll hear anything definitive following tonight.

The whole thing was meant to be a discussion over the options. The SJFA might be forced to pivot and say the West Region should go in intact rather than a new league created. And the sfa might back that faffing about.

Cos the SJFA then has to go back to their members and ask if the West wants to go in and if everyone's cool with that.

The LL/EOS/SoS are really going to have to be prepped to give the pros of a new WoS but also the pros of the sjfa sitting outside the pyramid because not everyone wants in.

[Burnie_man]

14 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Personally don't think we'll hear anything definitive following tonight.

The whole thing was meant to be a discussion over the options. The SJFA might be forced to pivot and say the West Region should go in intact rather than a new league created. And the sfa might back that faffing about.

Cos the SJFA then has to go back to their members and ask if the West wants to go in and if everyone's cool with that.

The LL/EOS/SoS are really going to have to be prepped to give the pros of a new WoS but also the pros of the sjfa sitting outside the pyramid because not everyone wants in.

The pros are fairly easy, an independent league run along the same lines as the EoS and SoS which gives clubs in the west a choice of whether to remain Junior or join the new league.   It also allows for tangible progress from next season and a yawning gap plugged in the Pyramid.

The league doesn't need to start completely from scratch as rules and regs can simply be copied from the EoS, and the LL runs it so no need to find office bearers right from the off.   They perhaps can also highlight some interest in the idea from clubs already.  The alternative is further delay.

I'm sure they have all this covered though!

Edited January 29, 2020 by Burnie_man

[FairWeatherFan]

28 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The pros are fairly easy, an independent league run along the same lines as the EoS and SoS which gives clubs in the west a choice of whether to remain Junior or join the new league.   It also allows for tangible progress from next season and a yawning gap plugged in the Pyramid.

The league doesn't need to start completely from scratch as rules and regs can simply be copied from the EoS, and the LL runs it so no need to find office bearers right from the off.   They perhaps can also highlight some interest in the idea from clubs already.  The alternative is further delay.

I'm sure they have all this covered though!

But they'll face opposition from the sjfa, as where will the members come from? Largely, if not not entirely from the sjfa.

Remember how the sfa needed the 2018 moves to the EoS explained to them in either the November '18 or January '19 minutes. 

The sfa have been trying to integrate the sjfa into the pyramid in some way. WOSFL doesn't do that, so the sfa might need convincing the best place for the sjfa is outside as their are clubs that don't want in the pyramid.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

But they'll face opposition from the sjfa, as where will the members come from? Largely, if not not entirely from the sjfa.

Remember how the sfa needed the 2018 moves to the EoS explained to them in either the November '18 or January '19 minutes. 

The sfa have been trying to integrate the sjfa into the pyramid in some way. WOSFL doesn't do that, so the sfa might need convincing the best place for the sjfa is outside as their are clubs that don't want in the pyramid.

The SJFA have no say in how the Pyramid operates, neither do the SFA in reality.    The LL, EoS and SoS run the Pyramid between them, they have regular meetings.  If they therefore want to facilitate a new league to fill a gap in their Pyramid and therefore provide an option for ALL clubs (not just Junior) in the west then the question is, would the SFA be minded stop them?

The only reason they would attempt to stop it, is if they feel obliged to protect the SJFA, but then this has nothing to do with the SJFA, they can carry on as they have always done.  Also, after 2 years of doing nothing, this is an easy step for significant progress as it's clear that admitting the SJFA as a block (which they want to do) is unachievable.

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The SJFA have no say in how the Pyramid operates, neither do the SFA in reality.    The LL, EoS and SoS run the Pyramid between them, they have regular meetings.  If they therefore want to facilitate a new league to fill a gap in their Pyramid and therefore provide an option for ALL clubs (not just Junior) in the west then the question is, would the SFA be minded stop them?

The only reason they would attempt to stop it, is if they feel obliged to protect the SJFA, but then this has nothing to do with the SJFA, they can carry on as they have always done.  Also, after 2 years of doing nothing, this is an easy step for significant progress as it's clear that admitting the SJFA as a block (which they want to do) is unachievable.

You can't on one hand say the LL/EOS/SOS can do what they want and point out the 2 plus year delay.

Will the SFA stop it outright no. Eventually they'll differ to their members as they always do. But they seem to be going into this meeting still with the intention of integration not this is the decision. Which is a point you've continually stressed. The options weren't to be voted on. They were to be discussed in full.

So when's eventually in my mind? The next PWG in March or April following the fallout of this one. When a WoS for 2020-21 gets the nod.

[Burnie_man]

You can't on one hand say the LL/EOS/SOS can do what they want and point out the 2 plus year delay.
Will the SFA stop it outright no. Eventually they'll differ to their members as they always do. But they seem to be going into this meeting still with the intention of integration not this is the decision. Which is a point you've continually stressed. The options weren't to be voted on. They were to be discussed in full.
So when's eventually in my mind? The next PWG in March or April following the fallout of this one. When a WoS for 2020-21 gets the nod.

The LL/EoS/SoS have sat back and waited on a workable solution to be proposed these last 2 years and have seen no progress.

The WRJFA had the chance to be in this season but it didnt happen, they have also refused to back it for next season.

The LL probably thought "f*ck this" and are taking a grip of the situation and presenting a proposal that should have been on the table 2 years ago.

What may happen today is the LL are given the nod to go ahead, with final agreement later. Then again, we may have more delays.

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The LL/EoS/SoS have sat back and waited on a workable solution to be proposed these last 2 years and have seen no progress.

The WRJFA had the chance to be in this season but it didnt happen, they have also refused to back it for next season.

The LL probably thought "f*ck this" and are taking a grip of the situation and presenting a proposal that should have been on the table 2 years ago.

What may happen today is the LL are given the nod to go ahead, with final agreement later. Then again, we may have more delays.

My best case scenario for this is that the SFA ask the LL draw up a LL pyramid proposal and ask for notes of interest from clubs to show its viable.

While telling the SJFA the West region can go in intact but it can't be tied to the other regions. 

Since that's basically what one of the options were and is essentially the same thing.

Also works as a call my bluff. As if the West Region can't all agree to enter and the LL is sitting on a number of notes of interest. Then it proves the need for an independent WOSFL.

[parsforlife]

2 things that might happen after option z is laughed out the room and WoS league is proposed.

A) the sjfa realize the game is up on their delaying tactics, they ask for a chance to go back to the clubs with the option for the west to join as a group. I would suspect the SFA would allow that to happen.

B) the sjfa objects but don’t back down at all and offer an alternative that’s workable. The SFA approve a WoS league to be set up and seek applicants. If this happens expect the SJFA to start a misinformation campaign on an extreme scale. The LL/EoS need to be ready for that.

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

My best case scenario for this is that the SFA ask the LL draw up a LL pyramid proposal and ask for notes of interest from clubs to show its viable.

While telling the SJFA the West region can go in intact but it can't be tied to the other regions. 

Since that's basically what one of the options were and is essentially the same thing.

Also works as a call my bluff. As if the West Region can't all agree to enter and the LL is sitting on a number of notes of interest. Then it proves the need for an independent WOSFL.

We'll see.  

Remember the LL have rejected all four suggestions, inc the WRJFA entering on their own  The EoS have backed this approach.  I guess the fact the WRJFA have twice had the opportunity and not followed through with it has meant the LL are no longer prepared to muck around.

[morley]

Worth remembering that email from the SFA last May when the last attempt to reach agreement failed. In particular the guidance from the sfa they only want around 64 clubs across Scotland at tier 6. So with 32 already at tier 6 (EOS premier and SOS), and presuming there needs to be an option left open for a highland league region tier 6, that would suggest there can only be scope for about another 16 teams at tier 6 presumably in the West. So that would suggest the SFA will not support the SJFA option z as that would likely take tier 6 way beyond the 64 the Sfa say they can manage at that level. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by morley

[gaz5]

But they'll face opposition from the sjfa, as where will the members come from? Largely, if not not entirely from the sjfa.
Remember how the sfa needed the 2018 moves to the EoS explained to them in either the November '18 or January '19 minutes. 
The sfa have been trying to integrate the sjfa into the pyramid in some way. WOSFL doesn't do that, so the sfa might need convincing the best place for the sjfa is outside as their are clubs that don't want in the pyramid.

I think a key line of argument will be Rod Petrie's mantra of last year when discussing this at the EoS meeting:

"No one should be forced to play in a league they don't want to".

That was repeated ad infinitum.

If he was serious about that, and if I were the LL reps I would parrot that back as a key part of the proposal, supporting Rods belief. We know there are plenty of teams in the West who want nothing to do with the pyramid.

Follows that to meet that requirement the only way forward is a new WoS league in the pyramid, the SJFA outside of it and everyone is free to choose where they want to play, no one is forced to go where they don't want to.

Job done.

[GNU_Linux]

6 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

I think a key line of argument will be Rod Petrie's mantra of last year when discussing this at the EoS meeting:

"No one should be forced to play in a league they don't want to".

That was repeated ad infinitum.

If he was serious about that, and if I were the LL reps I would parrot that back as a key part of the proposal, supporting Rods belief. We know there are plenty of teams in the West who want nothing to do with the pyramid.

Follows that to meet that requirement the only way forward is a new WoS league in the pyramid, the SJFA outside of it and everyone is free to choose where they want to play, no one is forced to go where they don't want to.

Job done.

iirc in one of the minutes (can't remember which specific meeting it was) TJ himself stated that some clubs wouldn't have any interest in promotion or leaving the confines of Ayrshire et al.