Pyramid 2019/2020

[Burnie_man]

18 minutes ago, Marten said:

If the SFA are serious about a pyramid, they shouldn't put up any further barriers for clubs wanting to get licensed. Fine if some more requirements get added to the bronze level as it's reasonable to argue that higher standards are needed in SPFL2 compared to LL/HL, but to further raise the requirements a lot for getting in the LL would prevent clubs who'd really add something to the level being able to make the step.

I do think we're reaching the point where the Licence levels need overhauled.

Afterall, there are now two levels of full SFA members, with new applicant clubs now without any vote or voice at AGM unless they reach tier 5 (LL/HL), therefore the requirements at tier 6 and below should in turn be more relaxed if those clubs are seen as lesser members not worthy of listening to.

[LongTimeLurker]

The main reason to keep piling on extra requirements for entry level was to limit numbers. The associate membership change at the last SFA AGM and the removal of voting rights for new members below tier 5 should have addressed many of the concerns of the existing full members, so there is less danger of that happening now.

[Dev]

4 hours ago, Marten said:

If the SFA are serious about a pyramid, they shouldn't put up any further barriers for clubs wanting to get licensed. Fine if some more requirements get added to the bronze level as it's reasonable to argue that higher standards are needed in SPFL2 compared to LL/HL, but to further raise the requirements a lot for getting in the LL would prevent clubs who'd really add something to the level being able to make the step.

But remember that clubs do not need to be licenced in order to join the pyramid - so criteria for licencing doesn't matter. However, yes, it will affect clubs that also wish to get a licence. The basic licence i.e. Entry level needs to be unchanged for some years and the SFA should make this clear to clubs. Otherwise it is creating uncertainty in the minds of clubs wanting to become licenced and trying to work out how much it might cost to get to that level.

I notice that in some other UK countries FAs are giving out Grants (not re-payable loans) to ambitious clubs so that they can up-grade their facilities. If Scotland qualifies for Euro 2020 the SFA will pick up a minimum 9 million euros just for turning up, with bonuses on top of that possible if they draw or wins any games etc. That would be an opportunity to spend on the Tier 5 and lower clubs wouldn't it? 

[Marten]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

But remember that clubs do not need to be licenced in order to join the pyramid - so criteria for licencing doesn't matter. However, yes, it will affect clubs that also wish to get a licence. The basic licence i.e. Entry level needs to be unchanged for some years and the SFA should make this clear to clubs. Otherwise it is creating uncertainty in the minds of clubs wanting to become licenced and trying to work out how much it might cost to get to that level.

I notice that in some other UK countries FAs are giving out Grants (not re-payable loans) to ambitious clubs so that they can up-grade their facilities. If Scotland qualifies for Euro 2020 the SFA will pick up a minimum 9 million euros just for turning up, with bonuses on top of that possible if they draw or wins any games etc. That would be an opportunity to spend on the Tier 5 and lower clubs wouldn't it? 

Yes, I realise that. But many clubs that moved cited the possibility to go for licensing as a main motivation. I already had/heard conversations at junior games that people who do support pyramid entry use licensing as a main argument. If that's going to become much harder, it will be likely that it further reduces the chance of the juniors on board because there will be fewer clubs motivated to get into the pyramid.

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Marten said:

Yes, I realise that. But many clubs that moved cited the possibility to go for licensing as a main motivation. I already had/heard conversations at junior games that people who do support pyramid entry use licensing as a main argument. If that's going to become much harder, it will be likely that it further reduces the chance of the juniors on board because there will be fewer clubs motivated to get into the pyramid.

Well there are no changes for 2020, and so far the only confirmed change for 2021 is that lights must be 200lux.  so in theory at least, the next couple of years is a window of opportunity, particularly for clubs who already have lights.

It's anyone's guess what the next major additional requirement will be or when, seats is a best guess. As I said, perhaps even an overhaul of the system will happen first, who knows.

Can Junior clubs afford to sit around and find out, or just grasp the nettle and get on with it.

[lithgierose]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Well there are no changes for 2020, and so far the only confirmed change for 2021 is that lights must be 200lux.  so in theory at least, the next couple of years is a window of opportunity, particularly for clubs who already have lights.

It's anyone's guess what the next major additional requirement will be or when, seats is a best guess. As I said, perhaps even an overhaul of the system will happen first, who knows.

Can Junior clubs afford to sit around and find out, or just grasp the nettle and get on with it.

Regarding lights and camelon. After obviously knowing the lux requirements (I assume) their lights not passing the match refs requirements. Was this more down to the height of the light poles. iyo

[Gimme]

Regarding lights and camelon. After obviously knowing the lux requirements (I assume) their lights not passing the match refs requirements. Was this more down to the height of the light poles. iyo

Wasn't it more to do with there being dark areas on the pitch, in particular one of the goalmouths?

[AlanCamelonfan]

37 minutes ago, lithgierose said:

Regarding lights and camelon. After obviously knowing the lux requirements (I assume) their lights not passing the match refs requirements. Was this more down to the height of the light poles. iyo

It was dark in certain areas apparently they are adding 6 more lights

[LongTimeLurker]

Bonnyrigg Rose's game on Saturday looked a wee bit dodgy on that as well in the corners in the highlights. Think the 0.25 variance limit or whatever it is may be more important than the 200 lux angle.

[morley]

If true OF looking to set up a West feeder for their colts, why presume as some on here seem to be that the OF would see this being at tier 6 with no ability for their colts to go higher with the LL in the way. It's only a few months since the OF tried to get their Colts in the SPFL, indeed the LL and HL have recently said no to Colt teams. If the rumour is true I reckon the OF strategy will be for their West feeder to come in as high as possible so also at tier 5, alongside the LL and HL. The LL becoming an East Super league with the current west based LL sides like BSC, EK, Cumb Colts encouraged/pushed over to the West feeder with the lure to them of the increased revenue and funding from the OF, some of the larger West based (Pro pyramid) Junior sides joining it, plus handful of others like Glasgow Uni. It's no real risk for the LL with them able to promote a number of arguably larger replacement teams (In terms of fanbase atleast) to LL from the EoS Premier v those going west. Its a solution which doesn't create a conflict of geography for the EoS or HL with an overlap of leagues which the Junior pyramid proposal does. The Sfa were originally supportive of the Juniors coming in alongside the LL and HL at tier 5 so why not a West League also at tier 5. The OF in return for funding and running the West Feeder then look for a commitment they can promote into the SPFL. Question would then be how the Sjfa or West Juniors respond. Could see a counter proposal from the West Junior for their own solution. The SOS Leaugue fits in alongside the EoS still. Anyway all speculation. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by morley

[Burnie_man]

9 hours ago, morley said:

If true OF looking to set up a West feeder for their colts, why presume as some on here seem to be that the OF would see this being at tier 6 with no ability for their colts to go higher with the LL in the way. It's only a few months since the OF tried to get their Colts in the SPFL, indeed the LL and HL have recently said no to Colt teams. If the rumour is true I reckon the OF strategy will be for their West feeder to come in as high as possible so also at tier 5, alongside the LL and HL. The LL becoming an East Super league with the current west based LL sides like BSC, EK, Cumb Colts encouraged/pushed over to the West feeder with the lure to them of the increased revenue and funding from the OF, some of the larger West based (Pro pyramid) Junior sides joining it, plus handful of others like Glasgow Uni. It's no real risk for the LL with them able to promote a number of arguably larger replacement teams (In terms of fanbase atleast) to LL from the EoS Premier v those going west. Its a solution which doesn't create a conflict of geography for the EoS or HL with an overlap of leagues which the Junior pyramid proposal does. The Sfa were originally supportive of the Juniors coming in alongside the LL and HL at tier 5 so why not a West League also at tier 5. The OF in return for funding and running the West Feeder then look for a commitment they can promote into the SPFL. Question would then be how the Sjfa or West Juniors respond. Could see a counter proposal from the West Junior for their own solution. The SOS Leaugue fits in alongside the EoS still. Anyway all speculation. 

the West will not sit alongside the LL.  The SPFL do not want three feeders, and especially not when it's a vehicle for colt teams via the back door.

[Burnie_man]

PWG convening on Wednesday.

Petrie attended the recent EoS board meeting, and I believe he met last week with the TJ/SJFA.  Apparently he was "doing the rounds" ahead of the PWG meeting.

With increasing chat at some East Junior clubs about moving to EoS, it will be interesting to see what transpires.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

PWG convening on Wednesday.

Petrie attended the recent EoS board meeting, and I believe he met last week with the TJ/SJFA.  Apparently he was "doing the rounds" ahead of the PWG meeting.

With increasing chat at some East Junior clubs about moving to EoS, it will be interesting to see what transpires.

Best guess.

West Region in.

With Brechin threatened with relegation and Tayside clubs wanting in the LL a changing the boundary becomes more of a focus to resolve the question of the East.

The North/HFL ignored as usual.

[Cameron Wilson]

Theres a lot of communication needed to make the pyramid happen, curious to know how it actually works, for example are a lot of things agreed between clubs before these official  meetings take place? Or is the bulk of everything needed to be covered thrashed out at PWG meetings?

Given they take place infrequently that could be part of the problem. Time is already matching on for getting changes in place for next season.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Cameron Wilson

[Burnie_man]

9 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

Theres a lot of communication needed to make the pyramid happen, curious to know how it actually works, for example are a lot of things agreed between clubs before these official  meetings take place? Or is the bulk of everything needed to be covered thrashed out at PWG meetings?

Given they take place infrequently that could be part of the problem. Time is already matching on for getting changes in place for next season.

Given that agreements at PWG are almost unheard of, not sure what the process is and neither do they I expect!

If the main proposal is to allow the West region in next season whilst work continues re East and North, then I suspect there will be unanimous agreement, with the usual caveats re how the play-offs will work, discipline procedures etc. Whether this then goes back to member clubs in the LL, EoS and SoS I don't know, depends on the devil in the detail I suppose.

[GNU_Linux]

OK, the four "suggestions" are;
1. WRJFA in for next season, ERJFA remain out of Pyramid.
2. WRJFA in for next season, ERJFA join at tier 7 and feed into EoS Premier.
3. Same proposal as a year ago, West and East in at tier 6 next season.
4. LL splits into West and East of 12-16 clubs each for 2021-22, WRJFA and SoS feed into West, ERJFA and EoS feed into East.
None of these are considered firm SFA proposals.   NRJFA remain out of Pyramid.  Leagues to discuss with members and feedback at PWG meeting end of January. 
Views also sought about removing HL/LL boundary.
The only one I can see that will be acceptable to LL and EoS is option 1.  I doubt EoS clubs will agree to option 2, LL won't agree to split, and option 3 has already been rejected.

[#tedstriker]

Would the South of Scotland league be level with the East of Scotland Premier league or conferences A & B?

[San Starko Rover]

1. Sensible option

2. Same issue as ERJFA at tier 6 they’re still geographically overlapping the EOS no mater if it’s Tier 6,7 or potentially 8 also where are Tayside going no boundary shift announced?

3. Rejected unanimously last year stupid to think it could pass this time.

4. Could work if you gave a limited waver on licensing to West clubs but the SPFL want two feeders not three getting them to change anything short notice is unlikely so 2022 at the earliest.

Be surprised if they moved the boundary this late into a season so unless Brechin avoid the drop they’re HL next year like Montrose would have been. Also can’t see the LL team they knock out the league taking it on the chin as they were meant to be relegated to the HL and then the goalposts are suddenly shifted relegating a LL team to the EOS or SOS, potential for a legal challenge? There was no move for Montrose when they asked so why would the SPFL do it for Brechin?

[sdr71]

What is happening with the EoS conferences next season?  I assume the format will be basically the same as this season, as the EoS were pretty up-front last year about setting up their premier division and the member clubs knew what they needed to do.  Is that the case, though?

[Spyro]

19 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

4. Could work if you gave a limited waver on licensing to West clubs but the SPFL want two feeders not three getting them to change anything short notice is unlikely so 2022 at the earliest.

I’m actually coming round to this idea. Move the SoS league to tier 7 with an option for any current clubs to move straight into the West section at tier 6 (which I don’t think there will be much rush for) and have the SoS winners playoff with the lowest promotion placed tier 7 west club (if they choose) to play in the tier 6 west league