Jason King Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 59 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: Then who gets promoted? I'm unsure if you are having a breakdown or just dont understand perfectly clear explanations? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 57 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: Then who gets promoted? Just go to applications until the pwg formalise a process between tiers 5&6 in the Lowland. My understanding was that the role of the PWG was to mediate between all of the relevant league bodies. If the LL, EoS and SoS all agreed to increase the number of spots available then I don't see why the PWG would have to step in at any point. There's already movement between those leagues via an established structure, it would just be a case of adjusting the exact mechanics of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, craigkillie said: My understanding was that the role of the PWG was to mediate between all of the relevant league bodies. If the LL, EoS and SoS all agreed to increase the number of spots available then I don't see why the PWG would have to step in at any point. There's already movement between those leagues via an established structure, it would just be a case of adjusting the exact mechanics of it. Because the SFA have a say in the LL pyramid playoff and they basically said they'd step in if they're isn't agreement coming out of the PWG. The whole fuss about Maxwell trying to say he'd pick who's in it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 If there was another Tier 6 league being denied access, maybe, but not if all the leagues already in the pyramid agree and it's just a case of tweaking the existing play-off. As long as they agreed to review it again as and when the West join the pyramid, I don't see a problem. People on this thread are giving Maxwell and Petrie far too much credit in terms of this stuff. I don't think either of them has any particular vision for the pyramid other than just wanting it all to get sorted so they don't have to hear about it any more. Maxwell in particular clearly didn't have a clue about any of it and was just happy to agree with whatever he thought was the consensus at the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz5 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Because the SFA have a say in the LL pyramid playoff and they basically said they'd step in if they're isn't agreement coming out of the PWG. The whole fuss about Maxwell trying to say he'd pick who's in it.They don't currently have a say.That "fuss" was because IM wanted the LL/EoS/SoS to rewrite their rules to say that IM could choose.They refused (AFAIK) and there's no way the SFA can force that rule change.I think as we've seen in the last few years with Colt teams, Juniors at Tier 6 etc. people seem to greatly over estimate the power the SFA have over league's and rules.National team, Scottish Cup and Licensing seems to be (based on just what we've seen) their reach. Anything involving the league's or league rules etc. needs agreement/consensus from the league's in question. The SFA don't appear to have sole decision making rights there, and rightly so. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 44 minutes ago, gaz5 said: They don't currently have a say. That "fuss" was because IM wanted the LL/EoS/SoS to rewrite their rules to say that IM could choose. They refused (AFAIK) and there's no way the SFA can force that rule change. I think as we've seen in the last few years with Colt teams, Juniors at Tier 6 etc. people seem to greatly over estimate the power the SFA have over league's and rules. National team, Scottish Cup and Licensing seems to be (based on just what we've seen) their reach. Anything involving the league's or league rules etc. needs agreement/consensus from the league's in question. The SFA don't appear to have sole decision making rights there, and rightly so. Going by the LL pyramid playoff rules the SFA has equal standing with the SOS, EoS and LL in all parties have to agree. They can't dictate but it's the same sort of "veto" that people said the EoS had as they need to agree to any changes. The sfa are going into the new season overseeing this sjfa trial of disciplinary rules and involving the SJFA in the on going PWG meetings that will start up again. Why would they agree to a change that would only be seen as temporary. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz5 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Going by the LL pyramid playoff rules the SFA has equal standing with the SOS, EoS and LL in all parties have to agree. They can't dictate but it's the same sort of "veto" that people said the EoS had as they need to agree to any changes. The sfa are going into the new season overseeing this sjfa trial of disciplinary rules and involving the SJFA in the on going PWG meetings that will start up again. Why would they agree to a change that would only be seen as temporary.So you agree, the SFA can't do anything on their own, it's consensus that is required, which is exactly what I said in the last paragraph.That was my point in opposition to what you had suggested initially with the view that the SFA would step in if they didn't get what they want.They can't "step in", it requires consensus. That's why the juniors at Tier 6 was never a "done deal" and I'd be amazed if anyone at the SFA ever used that terminology. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 20 minutes ago, gaz5 said: So you agree, the SFA can't do anything on their own, it's consensus that is required, which is exactly what I said in the last paragraph. That was my point in opposition to what you had suggested initially with the view that the SFA would step in if they didn't get what they want. They can't "step in", it requires consensus. That's why the juniors at Tier 6 was never a "done deal" and I'd be amazed if anyone at the SFA ever used that terminology. I've said all along it's wrapped up in a 4 way agreement so the LL can't unilaterally decide on extra relegation because it alone can't provide the mechanism for changing extra promotion. And Maxwell caused a fuss by trying to change it to get his own way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Starko Rover Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 LL won’t increase promotion until there’s an improved SOS or a WOS league as allowing two up currently would mean 1 EOS and 1 SOS and the SOS clubs are too weak to go up and compete and it might hammer them financially. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 LL won’t increase promotion until there’s an improved SOS or a WOS league as allowing two up currently would mean 1 EOS and 1 SOS and the SOS clubs are too weak to go up and compete and it might hammer them financially. Doesn’t have to be 1 from each, could let EoS champions up automatically with 2nd vs SoS champions 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCamelonfan Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 1 hour ago, parsforlife said: Doesn’t have to be 1 from each, could let EoS champions up automatically with 2nd vs SoS champions How could you have that for two leagues at the same level. Perceived level isn't the same thing going by that logic you'd have Junior people telling you they should promote 3 of their clubs and no bother with the rest 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 34 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said: How could you have that for two leagues at the same level. Perceived level isn't the same thing going by that logic you'd have Junior people telling you they should promote 3 of their clubs and no bother with the rest Going by quotes on here Germany has a system where weaker/smaller regions have less promotion slots than others. It would need done by agreement of course, SoS accepting that it has less licenced clubs for example. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 1 minute ago, parsforlife said: Going by quotes on here Germany has a system where weaker/smaller regions have less promotion slots than others. It would need done by agreement of course, SoS accepting that it has less licenced clubs for example. The Regionalligen in Germany promote based on the number of clubs in each region. At the Oberligen level and below, the local FAs organise the leagues and promotion/relegation in various ways. Bavaria being an anomaly as they run the Regionaliga Bayern as well. The other Regionalligen cover multiple Länder. It's interesting as well that the DFB-Pokal requires qualification: only the 1. and 2. Bundesligen teams get guaranteed access plus four 3. Liga teams. The rest of the slots go to the local cup winners and runners up, depending on the local population. But then Germany has 16 times the population of Scotland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Alternatively, as long as the west aren't in, 15th in the LL can also join a play-off. Let them join the EOS champions & runners up and the SOS champions (with those teams being replaced by the next eligible team if not licensed). Play in a round robin with the final game at the same time or after the 2nd leg of the League 2 play-off final. Then, depending on the outcome of that PO, 1, 2 or 3 teams from the round robin group play LL the season after. That means that all clubs will know what division they play in after their last game of the season has finished, so there won't be any waiting around in order to find it out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanley Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 We have a 40-team EoS full of clubs who have a licence or are trying to get one and many are aiming for LL. A number of clubs are also clearly stronger than the weaker LL clubs. Then we have a 16-team SoS mostly consisting of clubs not interested in the LL. No way should they have equal status. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firewarden Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Bored 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 1 hour ago, stanley said: We have a 40-team EoS full of clubs who have a licence or are trying to get one and many are aiming for LL. A number of clubs are also clearly stronger than the weaker LL clubs. Then we have a 16-team SoS mostly consisting of clubs not interested in the LL. No way should they have equal status. The SoS League's status is as a result of history as opposed to merit when compared to the EoS or many Junior clubs. However, it is the geography of Scotland which means that it would, in my view, be sensible for the SoS to continue at its' current level. With generally weaker clubs they are not particularly likely to prevent clubs from e.g. the EoS from progressing via the play-offs so it doesn't make any difference at the end of the day, so why bother to target them? In addition, part of the role of all national football associations is to foster football throughout their territories. To take away the present SoS status (e.g. compared to the EoS) would go against that. I wonder whether present SJFA West Region clubs which are going for membership of the SFA - and so have to commit to the Pyramid - may find that joining the SoS for 2020/21 is their way forward. Guessing that say Girvan and Glasgow University might go down this route if they wish to retain their membership. Then there's clubs such as Cumnock and Petershill. After these it's not difficult to speculate about others which have apparently shown interest previously. You could end up with enough clubs in the SoS to form two Conference divisions (like the EoS did last season). If there were only say 20/22 clubs then the SoS could copy what the EoS is doing at Division One level in 2019/20 in order to give enough fixtures. The following season the central belt clubs could even become a new West of Scotland Senior League with little difficulty? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 1 hour ago, firewarden said: Bored 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyro Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) I agree that the SoS is only there because of history, but it DOES still serve a purpose. Also it creates another option when dealing this West region fiasco as Dev says... who’s to say it won’t be the backbone/starting point for any west region teams to progress into the pyramid of nothing else is forthcoming? Although I can see the current SoS teams struggling, or not accepting an influx of Glasgow/Lanarkshire teams coming in as it would involve a lot more travelling. But I would never be dismissive of it as it still serves a purpose for the teams who are currently in it and has not be any trouble over the years, it’s just a bit poor in quality but that’s not the league’s fault at all Edited June 27, 2019 by Spyro 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 1st in EoS v 2nd in SoS, and 1st in SoS v 2nd in EoS, with both winners being promoted. If EoS is stronger then they'll prove it on the pitch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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