Jump to content

Pyramid 2019/2020


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Auld Heid said:

That said - I do miss the opportunity that the Junior Cup brought the top teams to play the best in the West.   The SFA cup will never replace that buzz for me

After what Beith did to us, and having seen Talbot, I'm a bit relieved we're not...

No, the big Scottish isn't a replacement for the Junior Cup because we're only ever going to be hoping for a good run and the occasional giant-killing, as opposed to those great finals we've had.

I think most people who've given it any thought would like to see the Junior Cup opened out to all non-league seniors in Scotland who want to take part but sadly personalties and attitudes stand in the way of that for now. The South Challenge Cup is a good competition, but the name recognition of the Junior Cup is what gets all the shop windows decorated and the open-top bus parade, nothing else could take its place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Interesting take but you use one club (the one that wins a lot of trophies and dominates its small pool) as an example.  If you have been at a Petershill game, or Maybole, or Larkhall would you have taken away the same impression?  How many clubs in the west hit 3 figures regularly?

If west clubs cannot see the long term benefits of a vibrant pyramid system (and I do think a lot can), and only look at where they are season-to-season, then one day they will find that their utopia no longer exists and people no longer come.

We are where we are with the Lowland League and only via participation in it will it become better and stronger, and as has been pointed out umpteen times, for clubs in the west, nothing much would change for 90% of them.

Most clubs in the east have already sussed this, and crowds have been impressive - more so than the above - at many games as a result.

I was only talking about those WRSJFA clubs that could expect to be promoted to the LL. With the best will in the world, there's no way it's a match for the West Superleague, nor could it be for several years yet.

I'm not convinced that there's a reason to worry about the future of the WRSJFA, at least at the top end. South of the Tay the rump East Region is knackered, traditionally bigger West Lothian clubs are rapidly slipping behind clubs like Blackburn and Broxburn. No local competitors are coming past any of the West Superleague clubs though. From what I read there are problems further down the west region but would those be alleviated at all by joining the pyramid? I can't see a reason why.

Yes, the LL will get there, and faster if everyone commits to it. But how many years before it's genuinely interesting for a club like Talbot? At one promotion per season and assuming the SFA don't beat the whole pyramid to death, it'll be 6-7 years at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My fevered dream, of the type that people post on the 'if you could start from scratch' forum, is one season of three conferences made up of the Lowland League, the EoS Premier and the West Superleague, to form a LL, EoSL and WoSL in a single leap.

That's obviously pretty disrespectful to many LL but there's no doubt that for some it's just a matter of time before they're hauled into the EoS Premier, and a few will likely do back-to-back relegations. We'd get everything sorted in one year and the LL that would be formed would be a cracking league.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, GordonS said:

After what Beith did to us, and having seen Talbot, I'm a bit relieved we're not...

No, the big Scottish isn't a replacement for the Junior Cup because we're only ever going to be hoping for a good run and the occasional giant-killing, as opposed to those great finals we've had.

I think most people who've given it any thought would like to see the Junior Cup opened out to all non-league seniors in Scotland who want to take part but sadly personalties and attitudes stand in the way of that for now. The South Challenge Cup is a good competition, but the name recognition of the Junior Cup is what gets all the shop windows decorated and the open-top bus parade, nothing else could take its place.

That was not long ago Gordon but now not so convinced it is the be all and end all,the junior cup final didn't break 5000 spectators last season.

Played in Ayrshire,with 2 Ayrshire sides competing.

I know in my town there is a lot of apathy to the junior team now.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest, I’ve not seen too much disappointment this season at their being no Junior Cup.  It really is only relevant to those clubs who were in with a chance of reaching the latter stages, to most others it was a chance of a good day out somewhere different (and there has been plenty of that this season anyway) but little else, it certainly was hit or miss whether a run made you or cost you money.

In time maybe there will be a national non-league trophy for everyone to compete for.  Look at what the FA do with Non League Finals day at Wembley.  In Scotland you could have the Scottish Amateur Final and the “SFA Trophy Final” at Hampden on the same day, it would soon gain traction.

Personally I have not missed the Junior Cup in any way, shape or form but appreciate that others may still do.  However, I think it should be consigned to the history books along with Junior football.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I was only talking about those WRSJFA clubs that could expect to be promoted to the LL. With the best will in the world, there's no way it's a match for the West Superleague, nor could it be for several years yet.

I'm not convinced that there's a reason to worry about the future of the WRSJFA, at least at the top end. South of the Tay the rump East Region is knackered, traditionally bigger West Lothian clubs are rapidly slipping behind clubs like Blackburn and Broxburn. No local competitors are coming past any of the West Superleague clubs though. From what I read there are problems further down the west region but would those be alleviated at all by joining the pyramid? I can't see a reason why.

Yes, the LL will get there, and faster if everyone commits to it. But how many years before it's genuinely interesting for a club like Talbot? At one promotion per season and assuming the SFA don't beat the whole pyramid to death, it'll be 6-7 years at least.

There will come a point, towards the end of next season, where the WRJFA will enter for 2020-21 without the other two regions following (it could/should have happened for next season), or moves will have started to form a WoSFL.

Once that happens, I can see the LL opening up to two relegation spots which effectively hands promotion to both EoS and WRJFA/WoS Champions - if Licenced of course......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Whitburn Vale said:

That was not long ago Gordon but now not so convinced it is the be all and end all,the junior cup final didn't break 5000 spectators last season.

Played in Ayrshire,with 2 Ayrshire sides competing.

I know in my town there is a lot of apathy to the junior team now.

 

Sure, and it's telling that the final this year is in a stadium with a capacity of only 6,000. It's also only relevant if you make the final, or at least the semis.

But Hurlford don't have a big support and the kind of Talbot fans that only turn up for Junior Cup finals are getting pretty blasé. I think if there were a Linlithgow v Pollok final now you'd be back nearer 10,000. 

And even that 5,000 is worth putting in context - how many clubs in Scotland could take much more than that to their equivalent cup final? Only the full time clubs. How many does the South Challenge Cup final draw? The Junior Cup final is a special part of Scottish football's heritage, it's worth renewing it.

Sad to see what's happened to Whitburn, but I think it's more than the football club, I think it's symptomatic of the west side of West Lothian generally. Its old, ahem, cultural institutions no longer relevant or popular, public services hollowed out by austerity, reduced to dormitory status by new housing along the motorway corridor, pitifully led by a mean-spirited council that crushes talent and ambition... maybe this is a discussion for elsewhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Jason King said:

The pyramid is in place, its working for team with the apposite facilities 

Unless the SFA changes its rules again in the middle of the assessment period because they don't want too many new members  threatening the old guard. :)

In that case the apposite facilities still won't be apposite enough.

Edited by Khufu2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

To be honest, I’ve not seen too much disappointment this season at their being no Junior Cup.  It really is only relevant to those clubs who were in with a chance of reaching the latter stages, to most others it was a chance of a good day out somewhere different (and there has been plenty of that this season anyway) but little else, it certainly was hit or miss whether a run made you or cost you money.

In time maybe there will be a national non-league trophy for everyone to compete for.  Look at what the FA do with Non League Finals day at Wembley.  In Scotland you could have the Scottish Amateur Final and the “SFA Trophy Final” at Hampden on the same day, it would soon gain traction.

Personally I have not missed the Junior Cup in any way, shape or form but appreciate that others may still do.  However, I think it should be consigned to the history books along with Junior football.

Agreed that it's only those who were in with a shot of winning the Junior Cup who miss it. It is a big loss to us though. The three wins I've seen are my favourite club football memories and far exceed winning the league, beating Forfar or giving Ross County a scare. The downside of the Junior Cup was the stupid scheduling, but that can be fixed.

The FA Vase is over 40 years old and the FA Trophy is 50 this year. Heritage and name recognition count for a lot. No point throwing away something people already love. I'm sure we all want an all-in non-league knockout competition, might as well work with what we have.

15 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

There will come a point, towards the end of next season, where the WRJFA will enter for 2020-21 without the other two regions following (it could/should have happened for next season), or moves will have started to form a WoSFL.

Once that happens, I can see the LL opening up to two relegation spots which effectively hands promotion to both EoS and WRJFA/WoS Champions - if Licenced of course......

I'm not confident that will happen. Who really wants it? In theory they said they wanted to join the pyramid, but when it came to it none of the big west clubs did anything to make it happen.

I'm also not making presumptions about relegation from the LL. When is their AGM? If they don't increase it to 2 places from next season, given how strong the EoS Premier is and how many licensed clubs it now has, I'll be pretty sceptical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, GordonS said:

I've been holding off posting this because I think I'll get dog's abuse, but here goes...

Those who read this forum - me included - know that the pyramid means these leagues will inevitably improve and it'll take a few years to get there, and obviously every one of those teams deserves respect and has its place on merit, as should be the case in any football league system. But look at it from the perspective of Talbot, Hurlford or Pollok. Would you want to spend the years needed before the league levels out, when there's nothing wrong with where you are? Honestly? In the east we had a ridiculous division between junior and senior, but there are only two senior clubs below tier 5 on the WRSJFA patch (IIRC). The imperitive just isn't there.

 IMO a lot of work has to be done to sell the benefits of the pyramid to the west juiors before enough pressure will build, because we've they've got right now is still bloody impressive.

Not sure why you'd think you'd get dog's abuse for a sensible fact-based post that isn't shouting "mon the jooyurs". :)

Agree with the last part in that there isn't enough pressure in the west - plenty of factors in play though:

It will depend on whether Auchinleck continue winning the league and cups and then they might decide like Kelty and Bonnyrigg that they need to progress higher.

It may take clubs with ambitions further down (Clydebank, Cumnock or others close to a licence) to create the pressure from below like Dalkeith and Blackburn did in the east. Or Auchinleck as well once they get floodlights and the only thing holding them back is the lack of a senior league.

We know in the next two seasons that there is very likely to be two LL clubs replaced by EOS ones, perhaps even both the Roses which will increase its attractiveness. I'd say WW, Dalbeattie, Vale or a Uni team the likely candidates to go down.

Another west club coming down from the SPFL would help - with Cove unlikely to be club 42, Albion Rovers and perhaps Queen's Park could be relegated to the LL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Not sure why you'd think you'd get dog's abuse 

Because he's a complete idiot of a poster who has done nothing but moan about Linlithgow leaving the Juniors all season long.  GordonS is one of those fans who is stuck in 1690 and cant adapt to change, his repeated mewling is tiresome in the extreme.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, GordonS said:
30 minutes ago, GordonS said:

My fevered dream, of the type that people post on the 'if you could start from scratch' forum, is one season of three conferences made up of the Lowland League, the EoS Premier and the West Superleague, to form a LL, EoSL and WoSL in a single leap.

That's obviously pretty disrespectful to many LL but there's no doubt that for some it's just a matter of time before they're hauled into the EoS Premier, and a few will likely do back-to-back relegations. We'd get everything sorted in one year and the LL that would be formed would be a cracking league.

Yes, the LL will get there, and faster if everyone commits to it. But how many years before it's genuinely interesting for a club like Talbot? At one promotion per season and assuming the SFA don't beat the whole pyramid to death, it'll be 6-7 years at least.

Totally disrespectful and Tough titties the LL was formed from scratch for clubs like yours to snub.

It only took balls from Kelty to see the vision what the LL was set up for and now look at it grow  ? 

I'd like to see who yer talking aboot back to back relegations  ? 

Obviously ww (im gonnae be realistic enough there) maybes Vale,Gala,Dalbeattie and Gretna who'd go elsewhere ?

That's only 5, 2 of which would probably be in the play off the next season for a place in a 16 team league ! 

Theres enough strength in the LL now not to justify merging any leagues. 

It defo needs more than one relegation but theres NO  going back now in yer ideal world fevered dream or whatever you want to call it   ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

To be honest, I’ve not seen too much disappointment this season at their being no Junior Cup.  It really is only relevant to those clubs who were in with a chance of reaching the latter stages, to most others it was a chance of a good day out somewhere different (and there has been plenty of that this season anyway) but little else, it certainly was hit or miss whether a run made you or cost you money.

In time maybe there will be a national non-league trophy for everyone to compete for.  Look at what the FA do with Non League Finals day at Wembley.  In Scotland you could have the Scottish Amateur Final and the “SFA Trophy Final” at Hampden on the same day, it would soon gain traction.

Personally I have not missed the Junior Cup in any way, shape or form but appreciate that others may still do.  However, I think it should be consigned to the history books along with Junior football.

I can't understand the logic of this - That's more a view of someone with a hobby.  

Why enter competitions, why get a licence if you aren't there to challenge - I appreciate there are more losers than winners.   I'm sorry I don't concur with the view about player pathways and giving medals to kids for losing games.

For me you want your team to be the best they can  be - and that means  winning  games no matter how unrealistic.   In the juniors the ceiling was the Scottish Junior Cup and we achieved that 4 times.  Within the Pyramid system the goal has to be winning the Premier League followed by the Champions Leaguer (Yes I know that's unlikely). 

To many teams who seem content in the taking part as opposed to the winning.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't understand the logic of this - That's more a view of someone with a hobby.  
Why enter competitions, why get a licence if you aren't there to challenge - I appreciate there are more losers than winners.   I'm sorry I don't concur with the view about player pathways and giving medals to kids for losing games.
For me you want your team to be the best they can  be - and that means  winning  games no matter how unrealistic.   In the juniors the ceiling was the Scottish Junior Cup and we achieved that 4 times.  Within the Pyramid system the goal has to be winning the Premier League followed by the Champions Leaguer (Yes I know that's unlikely). 
To many teams who seem content in the taking part as opposed to the winning.  
 
Are you replying to someone else as this has hee haw to do with what I posted, try reading again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not confident that will happen. Who really wants it? In theory they said they wanted to join the pyramid, but when it came to it none of the big west clubs did anything to make it happen.
I'm also not making presumptions about relegation from the LL. When is their AGM? If they don't increase it to 2 places from next season, given how strong the EoS Premier is and how many licensed clubs it now has, I'll be pretty sceptical.
I think there's enough clubs in the west who want it to make it happen. Clydebank, Cumnock and Petershill are just three.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's enough clubs in the west who want it to make it happen. Clydebank, Cumnock and Petershill are just three.
Could add Arthurlie as well as iirc they enquired about the LL during it's formation. Kilwinning are another who've stated pyramid ambitions too I'm sure.

The way forward for the west imo is to restart the pwg next season then if no progress is made re:west by say January or Febuary then it may be best to look at a WOSL. If it drags on too long again it'll be groundhog day all over again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites



The pyramid is in place, its working for team with the apposite facilities and yet still the same old tired posters try and denigrate it.
Mediocre clubs in the West have been left behind by their own cupidity for tinpot prizes. Sad for them but the non-league world in Scotland has moved on and the cream is already rising to the top of the LL.
 


Still
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Auld Heid said:

Absolutely spot on.

For me the Pyramid at this moment remains largely a concept on P&B being destroyed by the PWG and SFA.  Again the champions of the EoS have not been promoted to the LL which unfortunately seems to be more often than not (Kelty being the exception).

The  Licensing situation improves which is an absolute joke - with little focus on football ability but plenty on ticking boxes. 

Without doubt the administration of the EoS is the best I have seen and the Juniors should be rightly embarressed how far behind they are on this front.

That said - I do miss the opportunity that the Junior Cup brought the top teams to play the best in the West.   The SFA cup will never replace that buzz for me

 

I agree that the licensing situation has been handled badly, especially with regards to moving the goalposts during the process and not giving applicants derogation. However, I think football ability should not be a part of the licensing process. If a club matches all licensing requirements they should be given a license when they apply for it, regardless of how good or bad they are on the pitch. Once everything is sorted off the pitch and a license has been granted, it's likely to help clubs improve on the pitch as well.

A good example is Coupar Angus. They are by far the poorest team I've watched in any senior or junior game all season, and I've been to the likes of Inverkeithing and Fort William as well. They got trounced 0-14 when I went there. However, they have floodlights and decent facilities. If the Tayside juniors end up in the pyramid somehow, they should get a license if they do match all the requirements and apply for one. If many smaller junior sides get licensed on the longer term, maybe there should be a change in the Scottish Cup structure to prevent too many mismatches like Coupar Angus v Auchinleck Talbot, but there is no reason why they should be snubbed just for being poor on the pitch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Totally disrespectful and Tough titties the LL was formed from scratch for clubs like yours to snub.

It only took balls from Kelty to see the vision what the LL was set up for and now look at it grow  ? 

I'd like to see who yer talking aboot back to back relegations  ? 

Obviously ww (im gonnae be realistic enough there) maybes Vale,Gala,Dalbeattie and Gretna who'd go elsewhere ?

That's only 5, 2 of which would probably be in the play off the next season for a place in a 16 team league ! 

Theres enough strength in the LL now not to justify merging any leagues. 

It defo needs more than one relegation but theres NO  going back now in yer ideal world fevered dream or whatever you want to call it   ? 

I agree with you on that one. I greatly support more relegation spots, which will probably majorly change the LL within a few years. I see no reason just merge leagues at this point just to rapidly get a new 16 team LL. The only other option would be to move tier 5 to a 3 region structure, with Tayside being in the east. That will obviously create new spaces in tier 5 to be filled by current EOS, ERJFA (north of Tay), WRJFA and SOS clubs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Marten said:

I agree that the licensing situation has been handled badly, especially with regards to moving the goalposts during the process and not giving applicants derogation. However, I think football ability should not be a part of the licensing process. If a club matches all licensing requirements they should be given a license when they apply for it, regardless of how good or bad they are on the pitch. Once everything is sorted off the pitch and a license has been granted, it's likely to help clubs improve on the pitch as well.

While I agree with your sentiment, licensing is being used as a barrier to progression based on footballing merit.  Licensing and footballing ability have to work hand in hand, but the application of the rules needs to be sufficiently flexible to enable clubs who have committed to the licensing process to progress on footballing merit, whether or not they meet all the criteria on any given day.  

Edited by Footballfirst
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...