Pyramid 2019/2020

[Khufu2]

12 minutes ago, Robert James said:

 

Blyth needn't panic, as the English FA is creating an additional Step 4 league in 2020/21,  specifically for the  north east region.

It isn't specifically for the North East (as in the North East region).

Three teams will be promoted from the NL next season as its contribution to the 20 needed to create an extra division. All that will happen is that the southern boundary of the league the ex-NL teams play in will be not as far south as it was. but it will l still probably include the whole of Yorkshire.

[newcastle broon]

34 minutes ago, Robert James said:

 

Blyth needn't panic, as the English FA is creating an additional Step 4 league in 2020/21,  specifically for the  north east region. This will result in much easier promotion opportunities over the next 3 or 4 years,  for existing Northern League clubs (eg Bishop Auckland, Stockton Town, West Auckland Town, Whitley Bay, etc) to progress up the pyramid to steps 3 & 2.  The changes are being made to create "the perfect pyramid" (according to the FA) !

Footnote : Promotion from the  Northern League, has been compulsory for the last couple of seasons, whereas it wasn't previously.   Pyramid changes take time to evolve, even south of the border. 

 

England is a far bigger country and aboot 10 times the size population of Scotland  and doesn't have 2 different organisations governing its fitba ? 

Not sure how comparing footballing structures can be matched  ? 

The only thing I can see regarding the national league north next season is that there are no boundaries whatsoever dividing north/south  ? 

We seem to have it that the river Tay is the boundary for all things pyramid in Scotland  ? 

We already have North South and East areas recognised maybe it's time for a Midlands split somewhere allowing the Tayside and Angus sides that don't seem interested in the pyramid a chance to engage  ? 

The problem then being the West to which I canny see a breakthrough any time soon although from reading on here teams have shown interest.  

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by newcastle broon

[Robert James]

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

It isn't specifically for the North East (as in the North East region).

Three teams will be promoted from the NL next season as its contribution to the 20 needed to create an extra division. All that will happen is that the southern boundary of the league the ex-NL teams play in will be not as far south as it was. but it will l still probably include the whole of Yorkshire.

Initially yes,  it may extend to south Yorkshire, but with South Shields, Whitby Town and Morpeth Town already promoted, and the top 3  NL clubs to join them in  2020/21, the geographic spread of clubs will change  over the next 3 or 4 seasons.  The 'evidence' for this, is the strength/success of NL clubs in the FA Vase during the past decade or so.

[newcastle broon]

2 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Initially yes,  it may extend to south Yorkshire, but with South Shields, Whitby Town and Morpeth Town already promoted, and the top 3  NL clubs to join them in  2020/21, the geographic spread of clubs will change  over the next 3 or 4 seasons.  The 'evidence' for this, is the strength/success of NL clubs in the FA Vase during the past decade or so.

South Shields and Whitby Town  didn't get promoted  ? 

South Shields and Morpeth Town are both backed by wealthy businessmen. 

NL clubs ain't gonnae be able to travel too far in the foreseeable. Clubs are on the bones of their arse as it is  ? 

Ye just cant compare the 2 countries  ? 

[Khufu2]

15 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Initially yes,  it may extend to south Yorkshire, but with South Shields, Whitby Town and Morpeth Town already promoted, and the top 3  NL clubs to join them in  2020/21, the geographic spread of clubs will change  over the next 3 or 4 seasons.  The 'evidence' for this, is the strength/success of NL clubs in the FA Vase during the past decade or so.

None of the teams you cite are at Step 4. Next season will see just two ex-NL teams at Step4.

I don't see how a new division will change  much at Step 4 for ex-NL teams. It is likely that only one team will be promoted from the NL each season after 2019-20,  Ex-NL clubs at Step 4 will be lost to promotion and relegation too. Those at Step 4 will still be travelling down to S Yorkshire and possibly beyond.

The obvious thing to do would have  been to promote the top 7/8 NL clubs at the end of next season.

There are parallels, of course, with Scotland. Team for team the EoS Premier is probably stronger than the LL and the West Juniors probably stronger than both. How long before we have pyramid based on ability? All we have at the moment is tinkering and obstruction.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Khufu2

[Auld Heid]

15 hours ago, GordonS said:

I've been holding off posting this because I think I'll get dog's abuse, but here goes...

I was at Auchinleck v Troon last Wednesday. There was a really big crowd, it took me over 5 minutes to get through the turnstiles and there was a good queue behind me. The atmosphere was good and the bar and pie stall were doing a roaring trade. The football was so good it was jarring after a season watching EoS. Talbot would kill Linlithgow Rose right now, it would be a brutal watch. I think Troon would take us; we're better middle-to-front, but their defence is alright and ours isn't. I'd predict a high-scoring defeat.

I know it was an unusual night because one side could - and did - win the league. Talbot won 5-0 but that wasn't a measure of Troon, it was a sign of the really high quality from Talbot. They're head and shoulders above anything else I've seen in non-league this season, including HL and LL. 

Clubs in that superleague are mostly doing pretty well. The standard is very good, crowds are decent at every club, it's a proper matchday experience.

So why would they want to leave that for the LL? Two of the clubs are universities, with about 80 fans. One is a club from Glasgow that plays in Alloa, in front of similar crowds. One is an academy for French youngsters based in Mount Florida but playing in Annan. Even some established community clubs are getting crowds below 100.

Those who read this forum - me included - know that the pyramid means these leagues will inevitably improve and it'll take a few years to get there, and obviously every one of those teams deserves respect and has its place on merit, as should be the case in any football league system. But look at it from the perspective of Talbot, Hurlford or Pollok. Would you want to spend the years needed before the league levels out, when there's nothing wrong with where you are? Honestly? In the east we had a ridiculous division between junior and senior, but there are only two senior clubs below tier 5 on the WRSJFA patch (IIRC). The imperitive just isn't there.

 IMO a lot of work has to be done to sell the benefits of the pyramid to the west juiors before enough pressure will build, because we've they've got right now is still bloody impressive.

 

Absolutely spot on.

For me the Pyramid at this moment remains largely a concept on P&B being destroyed by the PWG and SFA.  Again the champions of the EoS have not been promoted to the LL which unfortunately seems to be more often than not (Kelty being the exception).

The  Licensing situation improves which is an absolute joke - with little focus on football ability but plenty on ticking boxes. 

Without doubt the administration of the EoS is the best I have seen and the Juniors should be rightly embarressed how far behind they are on this front.

That said - I do miss the opportunity that the Junior Cup brought the top teams to play the best in the West.   The SFA cup will never replace that buzz for me

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

15 hours ago, GordonS said:

I've been holding off posting this because I think I'll get dog's abuse, but here goes...

I was at Auchinleck v Troon last Wednesday. There was a really big crowd, it took me over 5 minutes to get through the turnstiles and there was a good queue behind me. The atmosphere was good and the bar and pie stall were doing a roaring trade. The football was so good it was jarring after a season watching EoS. Talbot would kill Linlithgow Rose right now, it would be a brutal watch. I think Troon would take us; we're better middle-to-front, but their defence is alright and ours isn't. I'd predict a high-scoring defeat.

I know it was an unusual night because one side could - and did - win the league. Talbot won 5-0 but that wasn't a measure of Troon, it was a sign of the really high quality from Talbot. They're head and shoulders above anything else I've seen in non-league this season, including HL and LL. 

Clubs in that superleague are mostly doing pretty well. The standard is very good, crowds are decent at every club, it's a proper matchday experience.

So why would they want to leave that for the LL? Two of the clubs are universities, with about 80 fans. One is a club from Glasgow that plays in Alloa, in front of similar crowds. One is an academy for French youngsters based in Mount Florida but playing in Annan. Even some established community clubs are getting crowds below 100.

Those who read this forum - me included - know that the pyramid means these leagues will inevitably improve and it'll take a few years to get there, and obviously every one of those teams deserves respect and has its place on merit, as should be the case in any football league system. But look at it from the perspective of Talbot, Hurlford or Pollok. Would you want to spend the years needed before the league levels out, when there's nothing wrong with where you are? Honestly? In the east we had a ridiculous division between junior and senior, but there are only two senior clubs below tier 5 on the WRSJFA patch (IIRC). The imperitive just isn't there.

 IMO a lot of work has to be done to sell the benefits of the pyramid to the west juiors before enough pressure will build, because we've they've got right now is still bloody impressive.

 

Probably a fair point. But it wasnth like that in the east though. At least now get rid of Tayside. We have different clubs from lowland league to play. 

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

Absolutely spot on.

For me the Pyramid at this moment remains largely a concept on P&B being destroyed by the PWG and SFA.  Again the champions of the EoS have not been promoted to the LL which unfortunately seems to be more often than not (Kelty being the exception).

The  Licensing situation improves which is an absolute joke - with little focus on football ability but plenty on ticking boxes. 

Without doubt the administration of the EoS is the best I have seen and the Juniors should be rightly embarressed how far behind they are on this front.

That said - I do miss the opportunity that the Junior Cup brought the top teams to play the best in the West.   The SFA cup will never replace that buzz for me

 

I think that's largely why linlithgow didn't do well this year didn't embrace the change. One hurdle and people want to go running I know it was a sickener for us but after the initial down feeling we just go again. That's why we done well this season we embraced we progressed.

 

In terms of the league next season is it worse than juniors super league that we would have had. I doubt it 

[parsforlife]

15 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

 

The Licensing situation improves which is an absolute joke - with little focus on football ability but plenty on ticking boxes. 

 

 

Licencing isn't meant to have any focus on football ability. We play matches against each other to judge that. Its about off-field standards, the entire point is that its not related to how good the players are.

[craigkillie]

 
England is a far bigger country and aboot 10 times the size population of Scotland  and doesn't have 2 different organisations governing its fitba ? 

They have more than 2. Even for the top four divisions there's the FA, the EPL and the EFL. Presumably there are several other organisations running the various pyramid leagues, but I don't know enough about them to be sure on that.

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

 

England is a far bigger country and aboot 10 times the size population of Scotland  and doesn't have 2 different organisations governing its fitba ? 

Not sure how comparing footballing structures can be matched  ? 

The only thing I can see regarding the national league north next season is that there are no boundaries whatsoever dividing north/south  ? 

We seem to have it that the river Tay is the boundary for all things pyramid in Scotland  ? 

We already have North South and East areas recognised maybe it's time for a Midlands split somewhere allowing the Tayside and Angus sides that don't seem interested in the pyramid a chance to engage  ? 

The problem then being the West to which I canny see a breakthrough any time soon although from reading on here teams have shown interest.  I hope I'm proved wrong  ? 

 

The Boundary

Yes the River Tay is the SFA's current boundary. The PWG has been given the task of 'reviewing' it during the next year (or beyond ?).

This review will need to include consultation with SPFL clubs, as well as Senior & Junior Non League clubs.  Theoretically the existing boundary line could be "tested" a year from now, if Brechin City (relegated twice during the last 2 seasons), end up as "Club 42" next season. The boundary as currently defined, would send them to the Highland League, if they lose the pyramid play-off, as could have been the case with Montrose a few years ago.

The West Pyramid

The difference between English and Scottish football, is that south of the border the FA controls the shape/structure of the non-league pyramid, and decides club allocations. (There are club appeal rights, which are sometimes successful, but often not). Whereas in Scotland, the SFA chooses NOT to control the overall structure.  Given the current impasse regarding the SJFA, and further pyramid doubts about West Juniors joining as a 'collective', the SFA should decide to form a West (senior) League, and invite clubs to apply. In the (unlikely ?) event that there are insufficient West junior (or amateur) clubs who apply, then there won't be a West pyramid feeder league in 2020/21 , and it would be up to ambitious clubs, who want to join the pyramid,  to  'break ranks' by applying to join the  EoSL or the SoSLfor pyramid access thereafter.  

Footnote : Please note, that I hope  the pyramid does include West junior clubs in 2020/21, as set out in the SFA's recent statement.

[Burnie_man]

15 hours ago, GordonS said:

I've been holding off posting this because I think I'll get dog's abuse, but here goes...

I was at Auchinleck v Troon last Wednesday. There was a really big crowd, it took me over 5 minutes to get through the turnstiles and there was a good queue behind me. The atmosphere was good and the bar and pie stall were doing a roaring trade. The football was so good it was jarring after a season watching EoS. Talbot would kill Linlithgow Rose right now, it would be a brutal watch. I think Troon would take us; we're better middle-to-front, but their defence is alright and ours isn't. I'd predict a high-scoring defeat.

I know it was an unusual night because one side could - and did - win the league. Talbot won 5-0 but that wasn't a measure of Troon, it was a sign of the really high quality from Talbot. They're head and shoulders above anything else I've seen in non-league this season, including HL and LL. 

Clubs in that superleague are mostly doing pretty well. The standard is very good, crowds are decent at every club, it's a proper matchday experience.

So why would they want to leave that for the LL? Two of the clubs are universities, with about 80 fans. One is a club from Glasgow that plays in Alloa, in front of similar crowds. One is an academy for French youngsters based in Mount Florida but playing in Annan. Even some established community clubs are getting crowds below 100.

Those who read this forum - me included - know that the pyramid means these leagues will inevitably improve and it'll take a few years to get there, and obviously every one of those teams deserves respect and has its place on merit, as should be the case in any football league system. But look at it from the perspective of Talbot, Hurlford or Pollok. Would you want to spend the years needed before the league levels out, when there's nothing wrong with where you are? Honestly? In the east we had a ridiculous division between junior and senior, but there are only two senior clubs below tier 5 on the WRSJFA patch (IIRC). The imperitive just isn't there.

 IMO a lot of work has to be done to sell the benefits of the pyramid to the west juiors before enough pressure will build, because we've they've got right now is still bloody impressive.

 

Interesting take but you use one club (the one that wins a lot of trophies and dominates its small pool) as an example.  If you have been at a Petershill game, or Maybole, or Larkhall would you have taken away the same impression?  How many clubs in the west hit 3 figures regularly?

If west clubs cannot see the long term benefits of a vibrant pyramid system (and I do think a lot can), and only look at where they are season-to-season, then one day they will find that their utopia no longer exists and people no longer come.

We are where we are with the Lowland League and only via participation in it will it become better and stronger, and as has been pointed out umpteen times, for clubs in the west, nothing much would change for 90% of them.

Most clubs in the east have already sussed this, and crowds have been impressive - more so than the above - at many games as a result.

[Robert James]

45 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

South Shields and Whitby Town  didn't get promoted  ? 

South Shields and Morpeth Town are both backed by wealthy businessmen. 

NL clubs ain't gonnae be able to travel too far in the foreseeable. Clubs are on the bones of their arse as it is  ? 

Ye just cant compare the 2 countries  ? 

Incorrect.  If you check the end of season league tables, and you will see that South Shields and Whitby are already playing  in a higher pyramid league.

[newcastle broon]

10 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

 

They have more than 2. Even for the top four divisions there's the FA, the EPL and the EFL. Presumably there are several other organisations running the various pyramid leagues, but I don't know enough about them to be sure on that.

 

I was more referring to the junior/senior divide but I take yer point  ? 

[newcastle broon]

Just now, Robert James said:

Incorrect.  If you check the end of season league tables, and you will see that South Shields and Whitby are already playing  in a higher pyramid league.

South Shields haven't been promoted or they'd have been celebrating and shouting from the rooftops aboot it on social media,likewise Whitby Town  ? 

[Robert James]

3 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

South Shields haven't been promoted or they'd have been celebrating and shouting from the rooftops aboot it on social media,likewise Whitby Town  ? 

We are off topic, but to clarify, the new north east region league will be at Step 4 in 2020/21.   South Shields and Whitby are already at Step 3 .

[Cameron Wilson]

16 hours ago, GordonS said:

I've been holding off posting this because I think I'll get dog's abuse, but here goes...

I was at Auchinleck v Troon last Wednesday. There was a really big crowd, it took me over 5 minutes to get through the turnstiles and there was a good queue behind me. The atmosphere was good and the bar and pie stall were doing a roaring trade. The football was so good it was jarring after a season watching EoS. Talbot would kill Linlithgow Rose right now, it would be a brutal watch. I think Troon would take us; we're better middle-to-front, but their defence is alright and ours isn't. I'd predict a high-scoring defeat.

I know it was an unusual night because one side could - and did - win the league. Talbot won 5-0 but that wasn't a measure of Troon, it was a sign of the really high quality from Talbot. They're head and shoulders above anything else I've seen in non-league this season, including HL and LL. 

Clubs in that superleague are mostly doing pretty well. The standard is very good, crowds are decent at every club, it's a proper matchday experience.

So why would they want to leave that for the LL? Two of the clubs are universities, with about 80 fans. One is a club from Glasgow that plays in Alloa, in front of similar crowds. One is an academy for French youngsters based in Mount Florida but playing in Annan. Even some established community clubs are getting crowds below 100.

Those who read this forum - me included - know that the pyramid means these leagues will inevitably improve and it'll take a few years to get there, and obviously every one of those teams deserves respect and has its place on merit, as should be the case in any football league system. But look at it from the perspective of Talbot, Hurlford or Pollok. Would you want to spend the years needed before the league levels out, when there's nothing wrong with where you are? Honestly? In the east we had a ridiculous division between junior and senior, but there are only two senior clubs below tier 5 on the WRSJFA patch (IIRC). The imperitive just isn't there.

 IMO a lot of work has to be done to sell the benefits of the pyramid to the west juiors before enough pressure will build, because we've they've got right now is still bloody impressive.

 

Really good points here. Although it's simply a matter of time before the Lowland League becomes a mixture of the best ex-juniors, stronger former EOS sides like Spartans, and relegated league clubs such as Cowdenbeath or Albion Rovers. Such a league, including from the west the likes of Talbot, Pollok, Clydebank etc would be a really exciting competition.

Whether west juniors have the vision to see this is the direction things are going is another matter of course. 

[Khufu2]

59 minutes ago, Cameron Wilson said:

Really good points here. Although it's simply a matter of time before the Lowland League becomes a mixture of the best ex-juniors, stronger former EOS sides like Spartans, and relegated league clubs such as Cowdenbeath or Albion Rovers. Such a league, including from the west the likes of Talbot, Pollok, Clydebank etc would be a really exciting competition.

Whether west juniors have the vision to see this is the direction things are going is another matter of course. 

At the rate of one a season maximum (none if the SFA can find a way of blocking promotions) it will be a gey long time before all the  cream rises to the top.

[Khufu2]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

We are off topic, but to clarify, the new north east region league will be at Step 4 in 2020/21.   South Shields and Whitby are already at Step 3 .

It's not a North East region league. It's what already exists at Step 4 with 2/3 more NE clubs, 2/3 more Yorks & Humberside clubs and 4-6 fewer from the East Midlands.  At the very best it's North East + Yorkshire and Humberside.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Khufu2

[Jason King]

6 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

At the rate of one a season maximum (none if the SFA can find a way of blocking promotions) it will be a gey long time before all the  cream rises to the top.

The pyramid is in place, its working for team with the apposite facilities and yet still the same old tired posters try and denigrate it.

Mediocre clubs in the West have been left behind by their own cupidity for tinpot prizes. Sad for them but the non-league world in Scotland has moved on and the cream is already rising to the top of the LL.