Pyramid 2019/2020

[GordonS]

League structures should be based on what exists on the ground - where clubs are, and where the road network takes you - rather than on mathematical purity. 

[Pyramidic]

8 minutes ago, GordonS said:

League structures should be based on what exists on the ground - where clubs are, and where the road network takes you - rather than on mathematical purity. 

I agree that mathematical purity should not be the objective but a working structure that operates in a fair and transparent manner.

I think that a firm starting point for the SFA should be to appoint a high profile Pyramid Officer / Non league Liaison Officer with the task of educating clubs (a key step in overcoming the current misunderstandings, misinformation and mistrust circulating among many Junior clubs) and assisting those clubs that wish to follow the Licensing route (working with clubs who may face initial Licence problems). Above all there is a need to promote harmony.

[Steven W]

31 minutes ago, GordonS said:

League structures should be based on what exists on the ground - where clubs are, and where the road network takes you - rather than on mathematical purity. 

Agreed.

England' spead of population, reasonably consistent from the border down to Cornwall lends itself to a "pure pyramid".

Scotland's spread is kind of skewed as there's so much in the Central Belt.

[GordonS]

3 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

I agree that mathematical purity should not be the objective but a working structure that operates in a fair and transparent manner.

I think that a firm starting point for the SFA should be to appoint a high profile Pyramid Officer / Non league Liaison Officer with the task of educating clubs (a key step in overcoming the current misunderstandings, misinformation and mistrust circulating among many Junior clubs) and assisting those clubs that wish to follow the Licensing route (working with clubs who may face initial Licence problems). Above all there is a need to promote harmony.

Agreed, getting a real and honest picture of a pyramid out there would help. So many myths and misunderstandings standing in the way of progress. 

[Spyro]

4 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The idea of the "pure pyramid" is that at steps 1-5 of the National League System the leagues will doube the further down you go. 1-2-4-8-16

You could maybe get away with something similar.

Tier 5 = 2x leagues Highland and Lowland League

Tier 6 = 4x league Highland North, Highland Central, Lowland West and Lowland East

Tier 7 = 8x leagues is where you start stretching things too far to be truly equal.

 

The problem with this is that you currently have the SoS league at tier 5, and they aren’t going to relinquish that, so there’s needs to be 3 leagues at tier 5. It would be more pleasant if the SoS could be ‘lost’ in amongst the new West section...but that’s never happening

[GordonS]

Just now, Spyro said:

The problem with this is that you currently have the SoS league at tier 5, and they aren’t going to relinquish that, so there’s needs to be 3 leagues at tier 5. It would be more pleasant if the SoS could be ‘lost’ in amongst the new West section...but that’s never happening

SoS are tier 6.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Spyro said:

The problem with this is that you currently have the SoS league at tier 5, and they aren’t going to relinquish that, so there’s needs to be 3 leagues at tier 5. It would be more pleasant if the SoS could be ‘lost’ in amongst the new West section...but that’s never happening

You could actually get away with that. It's one of the perceived positives of a Lowland League 2 that the South of Scotland would get moved down a tier.

[Spyro]

20 minutes ago, GordonS said:

SoS are tier 6.

My mistake, just woke up for nightshift, brain not engaged yet!

There’s no reason, with a bit of fuckaboutery, that you could make it work. Once I’m full of coffee I’ll have another look

Edited May 20, 2019 by Spyro

[Khufu2]

4 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The idea of the "pure pyramid" is that at steps 1-5 of the National League System the leagues will doube the further down you go. 1-2-4-8-16

You could maybe get away with something similar.

Tier 5 = 2x leagues Highland and Lowland League

Tier 6 = 4x league Highland North, Highland Central, Lowland West and Lowland East

Tier 7 = 8x leagues is where you start stretching things too far to be truly equal.

 

You can perhaps get away with a Tier 5 of 2 division ( HL and LL) at the moment, when the LL doesn't represent the best of non-league football south of Dundee.

When things settle down, and the best teams in the east make it to the LL and the West juniors jump aboard, the long term has to be at least a three division Tier 5 with LLW,  LLE and HL.  And even then you could easily argue that HL gets too good a deal given its very small population footprint..

[Spyro]

14 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

You can perhaps get away with a Tier 5 of 2 division ( HL and LL) at the moment, when the LL doesn't represent the best of non-league football south of Dundee.

When things settle down, and the best teams in the east make it to the LL and the West juniors jump aboard, the long term has to be at least a three division Tier 5 with LLW,  LLE and HL.  And even then you could easily argue that HL gets too good a deal given its very small population footprint..

That was my original plan, posted in the “If you started from scratch...” thread.

Obviously until the west team properly intergrate, it will be a tad lopsided but the final goal would be an LLEast - LLWest - North/Central HL

 

EDIT - Looking back, I changed everything! Maybe the sentiment got lost in my exuberance 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Spyro

[ShrimpLok]

2 minutes ago, Spyro said:

My mistake, just woke up for nightshift, brain not engaged yet!

There’s no reason, with a bit of fuckaboutery, that you could make it work. Once I’m full of coffee I’ll have another look

It's perfectly possible to split into 2 at each level from 5 downwards but in reality we get to such small geographical areas so quickly that it isn't really needed at tier 7/ tier 8. 

Tier 5 - Highland 
Tier 6 -  NCFL
Tier 7 - none / amateur
Tier 8 - none / amateur

This works  only because there is no realistic Tier 7/8 for North West Highlands. 

Tier 5 - Highland 
Tier 6 -  North Juniors Superleague
Tier 7 - North Juniors East / North Juniors West 
Tier 8 - none / amateur

This works just about but North Juniors have found it better to run Division 1 and 2. Maybe with Tayside clubs added a North / South split at Tier 7 works better?

Tier 5 - Lowland
Tier 6 - Lowland League West (basically current WR Premier)
Tier 7 - SOS + WRJFA Premier (but with current Championship teams) 
Tier 8 - (no SOS feeders) + WRJFA Ayrshire / WRJFA Central

This works down to Tier 7 but at Tier 8  forcing WRJFA to split geographically again conflicts with recent reorganisation away from Ayrshire / Central setup. 

Tier 5 - Lowland
Tier 6 - Lowland League East (basically current EOS Premier)
Tier 7 - EOS North / EOS South
Tier 8 - EOS Fife / EOS West Lothian + EOS Midlothian / EOS Borders

Again this could work to an extent but is forcing regionalisation at an earlier point than seems to be desired by clubs. Even with all the East Juniors South of the Tay you're basically about 50 clubs short of what you need for this structure which is a lot to find in the Amateurs. Even moving the LL boundary to the South Esk would leave you about 30 clubs short of what you need to make the structure work. 

So you probably could achieve a perfect Pyramid but is aiming to do so actually desirable for delivering the most competitive football to clubs?

[Jeek]

The English FA are now one season away from delivering a "pure" Pyramid. See attached example from yesterday's Non League Paper.  It would be interesting if Spyro or FairWeatherFan could produce a spreadsheet showing what a Scottish "pure" Pyramid would look like. Sadly the SFA currently lack the skills or will to develop a progressive Pyramid. So sad!

Don't suppose there's a higher resolution pic of that anywhere?

[cmontheloknow]

3 minutes ago, Jeek said:

5 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

The English FA are now one season away from delivering a "pure" Pyramid. See attached example from yesterday's Non League Paper.  It would be interesting if Spyro or FairWeatherFan could produce a spreadsheet showing what a Scottish "pure" Pyramid would look like. Sadly the SFA currently lack the skills or will to develop a progressive Pyramid. So sad!

Don't suppose there's a higher resolution pic of that anywhere?

If you click it, it zooms in (on a PC)

[Jeek]

Ah right, struggling on the app.

[GordonS]

I've been holding off posting this because I think I'll get dog's abuse, but here goes...

I was at Auchinleck v Troon last Wednesday. There was a really big crowd, it took me over 5 minutes to get through the turnstiles and there was a good queue behind me. The atmosphere was good and the bar and pie stall were doing a roaring trade. The football was so good it was jarring after a season watching EoS. Talbot would kill Linlithgow Rose right now, it would be a brutal watch. I think Troon would take us; we're better middle-to-front, but their defence is alright and ours isn't. I'd predict a high-scoring defeat.

I know it was an unusual night because one side could - and did - win the league. Talbot won 5-0 but that wasn't a measure of Troon, it was a sign of the really high quality from Talbot. They're head and shoulders above anything else I've seen in non-league this season, including HL and LL. 

Clubs in that superleague are mostly doing pretty well. The standard is very good, crowds are decent at every club, it's a proper matchday experience.

So why would they want to leave that for the LL? Two of the clubs are universities, with about 80 fans. One is a club from Glasgow that plays in Alloa, in front of similar crowds. One is an academy for French youngsters based in Mount Florida but playing in Annan. Even some established community clubs are getting crowds below 100.

Those who read this forum - me included - know that the pyramid means these leagues will inevitably improve and it'll take a few years to get there, and obviously every one of those teams deserves respect and has its place on merit, as should be the case in any football league system. But look at it from the perspective of Talbot, Hurlford or Pollok. Would you want to spend the years needed before the league levels out, when there's nothing wrong with where you are? Honestly? In the east we had a ridiculous division between junior and senior, but there are only two senior clubs below tier 5 on the WRSJFA patch (IIRC). The imperitive just isn't there.

 IMO a lot of work has to be done to sell the benefits of the pyramid to the west juiors before enough pressure will build, because we've they've got right now is still bloody impressive.

 

[Spyro]

4 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I've been holding off posting this because I think I'll get dog's abuse, but here goes...

I was at Auchinleck v Troon last Wednesday. There was a really big crowd, it took me over 5 minutes to get through the turnstiles and there was a good queue behind me. The atmosphere was good and the bar and pie stall were doing a roaring trade. The football was so good it was jarring after a season watching EoS. Talbot would kill Linlithgow Rose right now, it would be a brutal watch. I think Troon would take us; we're better middle-to-front, but their defence is alright and ours isn't. I'd predict a high-scoring defeat.

I know it was an unusual night because one side could - and did - win the league. Talbot won 5-0 but that wasn't a measure of Troon, it was a sign of the really high quality from Talbot. They're head and shoulders above anything else I've seen in non-league this season, including HL and LL. 

Clubs in that superleague are mostly doing pretty well. The standard is very good, crowds are decent at every club, it's a proper matchday experience.

So why would they want to leave that for the LL? Two of the clubs are universities, with about 80 fans. One is a club from Glasgow that plays in Alloa, in front of similar crowds. One is an academy for French youngsters based in Mount Florida but playing in Annan. Even some established community clubs are getting crowds below 100.

Those who read this forum - me included - know that the pyramid means these leagues will inevitably improve and it'll take a few years to get there, and obviously every one of those teams deserves respect and has its place on merit, as should be the case in any football league system. But look at it from the perspective of Talbot, Hurlford or Pollok. Would you want to spend the years needed before the league levels out, when there's nothing wrong with where you are? Honestly? In the east we had a ridiculous division between junior and senior, but there are only two senior clubs below tier 5 on the WRSJFA patch (IIRC). The imperitive just isn't there.

 IMO a lot of work has to be done to sell the benefits of the pyramid to the west juiors before enough pressure will build, because we've they've got right now is still bloody impressive.

 

Can’t argue with any of that...

The SFA has a great idea, and if done properly could have been a major plus-point in Scottish football. But they’ve totally f**ked it up and now we aren’t much further forward, and A LOAD of red-tape in the way now

[newcastle broon]

6 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

The English FA are now one season away from delivering a "pure" Pyramid. See attached example from yesterday's Non League Paper.  It would be interesting if Spyro or FairWeatherFan could produce a spreadsheet showing what a Scottish "pure" Pyramid would look like. Sadly the SFA currently lack the skills or will to develop a progressive Pyramid. So sad!

I'm sure Blyth fans canny wait on their league next season. Extra mileage for them looking at so called south teams playing in a north pyramid league  ?

[Spyro]

3 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

I'm sure Blyth fans canny wait on their league next season. Extra mileage for them looking at so called south teams playing in a north pyramid league  ?

Exactly, it’s not as perfect as folk would have you believe. Even the German model is a bit ropey, but there’s no reason in a country as small as Scotland why we can’t do it properly. So what if the geographics are lopsided, as long as clubs are given the same opportunities to progress IF THEY WISH.

[RossCountyFan14]

I've been holding off posting this because I think I'll get dog's abuse, but here goes...
I was at Auchinleck v Troon last Wednesday. There was a really big crowd, it took me over 5 minutes to get through the turnstiles and there was a good queue behind me. The atmosphere was good and the bar and pie stall were doing a roaring trade. The football was so good it was jarring after a season watching EoS. Talbot would kill Linlithgow Rose right now, it would be a brutal watch. I think Troon would take us; we're better middle-to-front, but their defence is alright and ours isn't. I'd predict a high-scoring defeat.
I know it was an unusual night because one side could - and did - win the league. Talbot won 5-0 but that wasn't a measure of Troon, it was a sign of the really high quality from Talbot. They're head and shoulders above anything else I've seen in non-league this season, including HL and LL. 
Clubs in that superleague are mostly doing pretty well. The standard is very good, crowds are decent at every club, it's a proper matchday experience.
So why would they want to leave that for the LL? Two of the clubs are universities, with about 80 fans. One is a club from Glasgow that plays in Alloa, in front of similar crowds. One is an academy for French youngsters based in Mount Florida but playing in Annan. Even some established community clubs are getting crowds below 100.
Those who read this forum - me included - know that the pyramid means these leagues will inevitably improve and it'll take a few years to get there, and obviously every one of those teams deserves respect and has its place on merit, as should be the case in any football league system. But look at it from the perspective of Talbot, Hurlford or Pollok. Would you want to spend the years needed before the league levels out, when there's nothing wrong with where you are? Honestly? In the east we had a ridiculous division between junior and senior, but there are only two senior clubs below tier 5 on the WRSJFA patch (IIRC). The imperitive just isn't there.
 IMO a lot of work has to be done to sell the benefits of the pyramid to the west juiors before enough pressure will build, because we've they've got right now is still bloody impressive.
 

This is one post in particular that’s really made me think differently on the subject. As someone who’s never been to a junior game, I’ve only ever been to one game below league 2 and that was Brora Rangers. I always wondered why junior teams didn’t want to move up this pyramid. I understood Brora’s reasoning as travel costs would cripple them but specifically junior teams, why they wouldn’t want to move up. I’d see the odd games on tv or highlights and think of this is the crowds they get at this level them surely there’s potential to get bigger moving up. I see the attractiveness of staying where they are and completely agree with all you mentioned in that post, can’t really argue with it. But will the same fixtures year after year not get somewhat too familiar? Seen teams like kelty etc crowds rise and would imagine teams like talbot would do the same especially if a number of clubs they play now also moved up with them. Talbot particularly impressed me by standard of football against Ayr and would of thought league 1/2 would be well capable

[Robert James]

14 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

I'm sure Blyth fans canny wait on their league next season. Extra mileage for them looking at so called south teams playing in a north pyramid league  ?

 

Blyth needn't panic, as the English FA is creating an additional Step 4 league in 2020/21,  specifically for the  north east region. This will result in much easier promotion opportunities over the next 3 or 4 years,  for existing Northern League clubs (eg Bishop Auckland, Stockton Town, West Auckland Town, Whitley Bay, etc) to progress up the pyramid to steps 3 & 2.  The changes are being made to create "the perfect pyramid" (according to the FA) !

Footnote : Promotion from the  Northern League, has been compulsory for the last couple of seasons, whereas it wasn't previously.   Pyramid changes take time to evolve, even south of the border. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Robert James
typo error