Pyramid 2019/2020

[supersmith]

The Lowland League stated at their previous two meetings that the bottom placed team, which is 15th placed Whitehill would by the league rules be relegated. In the event of a vacancy being open then an application process would open to anybody that filled the criteria. It didn't matter if as in this case the champions Bonnyrigg were unlicensed, the rules stipulate bottom placed team is relegated, so now the application process will be dealt with, and it is the league committee that will decide on the best applicant. 

[gaz5]

The Lowland League stated at their previous two meetings that the bottom placed team, which is 15th placed Whitehill would by the league rules be relegated. In the event of a vacancy being open then an application process would open to anybody that filled the criteria. It didn't matter if as in this case the champions Bonnyrigg were unlicensed, the rules stipulate bottom placed team is relegated, so now the application process will be dealt with, and it is the league committee that will decide on the best applicant. 

 

While true, that was said, that was under the assumption that a licensed team won the EoS and could be promoted. As that's not the case, I think Whitehill would be safe through that means of relegation. However, Berwick coming down and Cove going up may be Whitehills misfortune.  

 

I have no idea how the LL will handle it in the end, but they are generally a very well run league. My reading of it all is: 

 

 

- Selkirk went bust, creating a vacancy

- LL confirmed that 15th would be considered "bottom" for relegation

- SFA and LL confirm you can't change rules mid season to stop 15 being considered bottom

- Returning to 16 teams would be done through application, which was advertised in March

- LL confirm relegated clubs can apply for any vacancy within 2 days of relegation (suggesting normal relegstion rules, for EoS/SoS>LL and importantly L2>LL apply)

 

With Bonnyrigg denied a licence, that means no standard promotion/relegation between EoS/SoS and LL.

 

Bottom Club (be that 16 in any other season, 15 this) is reprieved from relegation.

 

UNLESS the Highland champions win the playoff and a Lowland area club is relegated from league 2, in which case bottom Club (second bottom if an EoS/SoS champion was licenced) would be relegated in any other season, through the relegation rules.

 

I don't believe LL rules allow for Berwick, as the relegated league 2 club, to fill the vacancy created by Selkirk as Selkirk are not considered bottom (or second bottom). There is already a mechanism for relegating league 2 clubs. The vacancy is a separate matter (which the LL seemed to suggest themselves when advertising it)

 

Had Bonnyrigg got a licence and Whitehill sent that route, Dalbeattie would have gone as well to take in Berwick, but could have applied for the vacancy. When the LL said Dalbeattie wouldn't go down, I believe that they meant they would be accepted back through application as there's no normal season where 14th gets relegated.

 

Basically, I think relegation and promotion would happen as it normally would regardless of Selkirk, which created a vacancy to be filled by application.

 

Of course, Whitehill could apply for that vacancy and could well be accepted on that basis, but given cove are going to beat Berwick, if this were a normal season, Selkirk hadn't folfed and the SFA hadn't made an arse of the licencing process, both Selkirk and Whitehill would be getting relegated.

 

Berwick coming down if anything goes against Whitehills (legitimate up till that point) annoyance at 15th considered bottom.

 

Just my interpretation of the rules/situation, and absolutely nothing against Whitehill. The politics and mess of this is an issue completely outside of their control, their only issue was finishing bottom of the 15 teams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Burnie_man]

As I said earlier, the EoS are waiting on the conclusion of the SPFL play-off before confirming format for next season.  That to me suggests that the outcome of that match may affect the EoS otherwise why wait?  So Berwick coming down may indeed relegate WW with a vacancy to be applied for??  That’s just me adding 2 and 2 and possibly getting 5.

[Golum]

- LL confirmed that 15th would be considered "bottom" for relegation

unless Bonnyrigg get a license ( as champions)  ,,,,,,,,,,,then there will be no relegation  as they cant be replaced  by another team for the champions spot 

 

just my view on the mine field of rules ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[gaz5]

- LL confirmed that 15th would be considered "bottom" for relegation
unless Bonnyrigg get a license ( as champions)  ,,,,,,,,,,,then there will be no relegation  as they cant be replaced  by another team for the champions spot 
 
just my view on the mine field of rules ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 

Relegation rules in the LL are more complicated than that though.

They would be replaced by Berwick, rather than the EoS champion.

LL relegation isn't just about what happens below, it changes based on what happens above. It's unique in that sense in the pyramid.

It's the only league in which a team can be relegated from the bottom/second bottom based purely on a team above being relegated, regardless of what happens below.

In confirming that 15th would be considered bottom based on the current rules, they confirmed that team would be considered bottom in all relegation scenarios.

In this one, there's no team to come up, so sigh of relief bottom club reprieved. But then the bottom club is back up for relegation now that a team is coming down from L2 (had Bonnyrigg been licenced that would have been second bottom).

As I say, Whitehill may well be re elected through application if they apply within 2 days of Berwick's relegation being confirmed (or the LL confirming that means they are relegated), but I don't believe the rules around relegation mean that Berwick can automatically fill the vacancy created by Selkirk (which is what you are suggesting).

It's been one of those seasons though where who the hell knows. Reason seems to be an afterthought. [emoji846]

[LongTimeLurker]

36 minutes ago, Golum said:

- LL confirmed that 15th would be considered "bottom" for relegation

unless Bonnyrigg get a license ( as champions)  ,,,,,,,,,,,then there will be no relegation  as they cant be replaced  by another team for the champions spot 

 

just my view on the mine field of rules ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Berwick appearing on the scene would potentially bring bottom into play again on relegation if the Selkirk vacancy is being filled through application. If they want to keep WW though they can as things stand now any way you interpret that rule and the LL membership is reported to have wanted to change the rule midseason to favour WW, so think it's a fait accompli what the LL Board will do. The way they haven't gone into all the ins out outs of what could happen on their website hints strongly that they know there is a problem with the wording and they want to keep the associated fuss to a minimum.

[Burnie_man]

18 hours ago, Spyro said:

Look at wee Blackburn sitting up there in the big league 

Bathgate and Armadale must be spewing... 

We just get on and work towards where we want to be.  With the three former Junior clubs in West Lothian now in the EoS Premier and all three with an SFA Licence, hopefully it shows the remaining WL Junior clubs what can be achieved.  There is no future in Junior football for clubs with ambition.

[Burnie_man]

14 hours ago, Vollyman said:

Good luck to Blackburn no regrets I am sure at any of the West Lothian juniors on remaining in junior football as the pyramid shambles unfolds. Commiserations to Bonnyrigg Rose victims of the SPFL protection society

We've not experienced any shambles at all, the EoS is exceptionally well organised. 

What will the league format be in the East Juniors next season, nobody seems to know. 

[The Informer]

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Berwick appearing on the scene would potentially bring bottom into play again on relegation if the Selkirk vacancy is being filled through application. If they want to keep WW though they can as things stand now any way you interpret that rule and the LL membership is reported to have wanted to change the rule midseason to favour WW, so think it's a fait accompli what the LL Board will do. The way they haven't gone into all the ins out outs of what could happen on their website hints strongly that they know there is a problem with the wording and they want to keep the associated fuss to a minimum.

My reading of it is that the bottom team can only be relegated if there is a licensed team to come up, and there isn’t. Therefore WW are safe, and Berwick will fill the 16th slot, there will be no application process.

[Whitburn Vale]

16 hours ago, Vollyman said:

Good luck to Blackburn no regrets I am sure at any of the West Lothian juniors on remaining in junior football as the pyramid shambles unfolds. Commiserations to Bonnyrigg Rose victims of the SPFL protection society

Last time I checked dale lad,it is the SFA who issue club license's not the SPFL.

How's tier 6 shaping up for the dale next season??

[Duraglit shareholder]

If Bonnyrigg are refused entry due to not having floodlights, and its a stipulation of entry to the Lowland League, then surely as a matter of fairness and integrity the 3 other teams currently playing in the LL without floodlights  should be demoted and replaced by the next best teams that have the infrustructure that meets the current criteria.That may sound harsh and provide me with a few red dots, but the treatment dished out to Bonnyrigg is unforgivable, and if the blazers are moving the goalposts about having lights, then surely entry to big Scottish Cup should only be open to teams that have them,this would hurt the team i follow but prospects of playing replays at 1pm on a weekday afternoons are ludicrous.I just dont believe the SFA want junior or ex junior teams anywhere near the top 4 leagues in Scotland so they hand out piecemeal parts like entry  to the Scottish, but not really as there are now about 3 preliminary rounds,they see what Cove done to Berwick and  then the Bonnyrigg saga,i understand now the reluctance of west juniors to join the pyramid.Scottish league football has been a closed shop for years, do you think league 2 and 3 clubs want to be in Berwicks shoes,gone are the cash handed down from tv money that stops at Lowland League level,do turkeys vote for xmas.Once teams go to expence of getting lights,it will then be"oh, you need a cartain number of seats etc etc", they'll always have ways and means to protect the established.

[vikingTON]

It's such a closed shop that yet another of its members is about to get emptied from it entirely on merit.  Other than that slight flaw in your logic, a solid 0/10, cliche-riddled nonsense of a post. 

[craigkillie]

2 hours ago, gaz5 said:

Relegation rules in the LL are more complicated than that though.

They would be replaced by Berwick, rather than the EoS champion.

LL relegation isn't just about what happens below, it changes based on what happens above. It's unique in that sense in the pyramid.

It's the only league in which a team can be relegated from the bottom/second bottom based purely on a team above being relegated, regardless of what happens below.

In confirming that 15th would be considered bottom based on the current rules, they confirmed that team would be considered bottom in all relegation scenarios.

In this one, there's no team to come up, so sigh of relief bottom club reprieved. But then the bottom club is back up for relegation now that a team is coming down from L2 (had Bonnyrigg been licenced that would have been second bottom).

As I say, Whitehill may well be re elected through application if they apply within 2 days of Berwick's relegation being confirmed (or the LL confirming that means they are relegated), but I don't believe the rules around relegation mean that Berwick can automatically fill the vacancy created by Selkirk (which is what you are suggesting).

It's been one of those seasons though where who the hell knows. Reason seems to be an afterthought.


 

 

This will presumably also be the case for the East of Scotland Premier Division going forward, assuming they want to keep a 16 team division.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Duraglit shareholder said:

If Bonnyrigg are refused entry due to not having floodlights, and its a stipulation of entry to the Lowland League, then surely as a matter of fairness and integrity the 3 other teams currently playing in the LL without floodlights  should be demoted and replaced by the next best teams that have the infrustructure that meets the current criteria.That may sound harsh and provide me with a few red dots, but the treatment dished out to Bonnyrigg is unforgivable, and if the blazers are moving the goalposts about having lights, then surely entry to big Scottish Cup should only be open to teams that have them,this would hurt the team i follow but prospects of playing replays at 1pm on a weekday afternoons are ludicrous.I just dont believe the SFA want junior or ex junior teams anywhere near the top 4 leagues in Scotland so they hand out piecemeal parts like entry  to the Scottish, but not really as there are now about 3 preliminary rounds,they see what Cove done to Berwick and  then the Bonnyrigg saga,i understand now the reluctance of west juniors to join the pyramid.Scottish league football has been a closed shop for years, do you think league 2 and 3 clubs want to be in Berwicks shoes,gone are the cash handed down from tv money that stops at Lowland League level,do turkeys vote for xmas.Once teams go to expence of getting lights,it will then be"oh, you need a cartain number of seats etc etc", they'll always have ways and means to protect the established.

The three clubs in the LL without lights are existing SFA members and have been for many years. They should be granted a period of derogation in order to meet the criteria, just as the 6 clubs in the EoS without lights should also have received a period of derogation to enable them to comply. It didn't happen and the SFA should rightly be criticised for that, they have got it badly wrong.

On the flip side, the SFA admitted 6 new members so it's hardly a case of a closed shop.  The SPFL is also about to relegate a long standing member to the Lowland League, so that's not a closed shop either.

Club licencing is an ongoing process which is there to improve standards.  Seats will undoubtedly be a requirement at some point down the line, and so they should be.

None of this should be used as a tool by those who want to preserve Junior football in order to hold clubs back.

The more I hear, the more I hope the SFA close the door on the SJFA being involved in any shape or form, and instead set-up a WoSFL for those clubs who want to progress.

 

 

[Golum]

4 hours ago, gaz5 said:

 

While true, that was said, that was under the assumption that a licensed team won the EoS and could be promoted. As that's not the case, I think Whitehill would be safe through that means of relegation. However, Berwick coming down and Cove going up may be Whitehills misfortune.  

 

I have no idea how the LL will handle it in the end, but they are generally a very well run league. My reading of it all is: 

 

 

- Selkirk went bust, creating a vacancy

- LL confirmed that 15th would be considered "bottom" for relegation

- SFA and LL confirm you can't change rules mid season to stop 15 being considered bottom

- Returning to 16 teams would be done through application, which was advertised in March

- LL confirm relegated clubs can apply for any vacancy within 2 days of relegation (suggesting normal relegstion rules, for EoS/SoS>LL and importantly L2>LL apply)

 

With Bonnyrigg denied a licence, that means no standard promotion/relegation between EoS/SoS and LL.

 

Bottom Club (be that 16 in any other season, 15 this) is reprieved from relegation.

 

UNLESS the Highland champions win the playoff and a Lowland area club is relegated from league 2, in which case bottom Club (second bottom if an EoS/SoS champion was licenced) would be relegated in any other season, through the relegation rules.

 

I don't believe LL rules allow for Berwick, as the relegated league 2 club, to fill the vacancy created by Selkirk as Selkirk are not considered bottom (or second bottom). There is already a mechanism for relegating league 2 clubs. The vacancy is a separate matter (which the LL seemed to suggest themselves when advertising it)

 

Had Bonnyrigg got a licence and Whitehill sent that route, Dalbeattie would have gone as well to take in Berwick, but could have applied for the vacancy. When the LL said Dalbeattie wouldn't go down, I believe that they meant they would be accepted back through application as there's no normal season where 14th gets relegated.

 

Basically, I think relegation and promotion would happen as it normally would regardless of Selkirk, which created a vacancy to be filled by application.

 

Of course, Whitehill could apply for that vacancy and could well be accepted on that basis, but given cove are going to beat Berwick, if this were a normal season, Selkirk hadn't folfed and the SFA hadn't made an arse of the licencing process, both Selkirk and Whitehill would be getting relegated.

 

Berwick coming down if anything goes against Whitehills (legitimate up till that point) annoyance at 15th considered bottom.

 

Just my interpretation of the rules/situation, and absolutely nothing against Whitehill. The politics and mess of this is an issue completely outside of their control, their only issue was finishing bottom of the 15 teams.

- LL confirmed that 15th would be considered "bottom" for relegation in which case 14th would have to be classed as 2nd bottom and relegated by Berwick coming down ?

WW would then be saved as Bonnyrigg have no License ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gaz5]

 

No, you don't relegate second bottom and leave bottom up. I can imagine the seeth at that!! [emoji39]

The lowest placed team not already relegated gets relegated for Berwick. In this instance, because Bonnyrigg not licensed, that's Whitehill. Had Bonnyrigg been licensed, it would have been Dalbeattie. Both were able to apply for Selkirk's vacancy, Dalbeattie would likely have got that on account of circumstances, Whitehill still might.

Again, only my interpretation of the rules and what I think would happen in any other season.

[Pyramidic]

In my view a club without lights (or other mandatory requirements) finishing in first place in the EoSLand SoSL in the 2019/20 season should be replaced by the second placed club if they are not Licensed.  This change should be adopted by a rule change in the LL / EoSL / SoSL constitutions.  Simples!

"Replacement clubs" down to third place appear to work quite well in the English pyramid between Steps 6 and 7 (Levels 10 & 11).

I cannot understand why some flexibility cannot also be built into our Pyramid.

In my view Bonnyrigg Rose have been treated very harshly by the SFA - quite unnecessary in my opinion.  However with more enlighted rule-making there might have still been the possibility of a LL play-off between the two second placed clubs:

Penicuik Athletic  v  Bonnyton Thistle
[but not in this case as Bonnyton do not have a Licence - anyone know the latest situation re licensing applicants in the SoSL?]

Why do our rules have to be configured in such a way that limits forward-thinking and progression?

[GordonS]

5 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Why do our rules have to be configured in such a way that limits forward-thinking and progression?

This is Scotland.

[Burnie_man]

Agree, a top 3 position in next seasons EoS should make you eligible for promotion, with the highest placed licenced club (preferably the Champion) progressing to the play-off

[Mr Tee]

Has there been official SFA press release or comment on this whole licensing/promotion fiasco?