Pyramid 2019/2020

[cmontheloknow]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I don't think the ERSJFA as a whole are that bothered about being in the pyramid. They don't want to be left behind and those of North of the Tay (who I believe are some of the most influential of those left) don't want to get stuck in the Highland League.

It's already quite late in the season and people are trying to organise their pre-seasons. I could see the East Region dragging things out and then trying to force a region wide Super League. Leading to another year of uncertainty.

On a side note if the SFA are now trying to impose 16 team leagues on Tier 6, it would be interesting to see what happens with the SoS if it ever drops to 15 or less.

How about: "In regions containing more than one division, the top level should contain no less than 16 teams".

[GNU_Linux]

I don't think the ERSJFA as a whole are that bothered about being in the pyramid. They don't want to be left behind and those of North of the Tay (who I believe are some of the most influential of those left) don't want to get stuck in the Highland League.

It's already quite late in the season and people are trying to organise their pre-seasons. I could see the East Region dragging things out and then trying to force a region wide Super League. Leading to another year of uncertainty.

On a side note if the SFA are now trying to impose 16 team leagues on Tier 6, it would be interesting to see what happens with the SoS if it ever drops to 15 or less.

 

The SOS also has the problem if any club leaves theres no one to fill the gap as non-league football in D&G outside of the SOS is Sunday Amateur (Saturday Amateur league folded in 2013). Only other option is a Fleet Star or another ex-member getting revived.

 

(I'm not including Southern Counties FA members in SPFL or LL)

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Could see a couple of sides try their luck and join the EOS, Clydebank possibly?

Id be shocked if our board change their view on applying to the EOS.

[parsforlife]

How about: "In regions containing more than one division, the top level should contain no less than 16 teams".

 

Something the national ‘region’ would fail on. There’s no need to come up with additional rules, simply don’t allow any new leagues to join the pyramid at a level where there is an established league in that region . If there is a tayside league established at tier 6 with 2 divisions x 10 then that would be fine.

[GordonS]

33 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

But the lack of logic for the South League members is why they would permanently never wish to cross paths in a league with Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Haws, Kelty etc... it just seems barmy. It all comes back again to the fallacy that the pyramid = SPFL League 2. Everyone finds their level, but no pyramid would function if the bottom tier decided they'd not bother as they'd never reach the upper levels. Misleading propaganda is holding teams back.

These teams only infrequently crossed paths with Linlithgow, Bo'ness etc anyway, because they were rare visitors to the Superleague. The choice as they see it is whether they'll be playing other West Lothian juniors, or Eyemouth, Tweedbank and Burntisland. They also feel a solidarity with the remaining juniors that they don't feel with their local seniors. If you don't have ambition or expectation of playing at a higher level, and local is very important to you, then fair enough. 

[Dev]

17 minutes ago, GordonS said:

These teams only infrequently crossed paths with Linlithgow, Bo'ness etc anyway, because they were rare visitors to the Superleague. The choice as they see it is whether they'll be playing other West Lothian juniors, or Eyemouth, Tweedbank and Burntisland. They also feel a solidarity with the remaining juniors that they don't feel with their local seniors. If you don't have ambition or expectation of playing at a higher level, and local is very important to you, then fair enough. 

Quite right! There's nothing to be gained by anyone by forcing clubs up to a level that they don't wish to play at. If that means clubs staying in the ERJFA so be it. Frankly this would solve the current issues and they could be welcomed, in future, if one or more had a change of heart. The same applies to WRJFA clubs who don't want in. Then let those WRJFA clubs in for next season.

Simples! 

[FairWeatherFan]

What the East Region could look like if they try to go the 16 team Super League route:

[Ray Patterson]

47 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

What the East Region could look like if they try to go the 16 team Super League route:

Still creates the issue what if Lochee United win the super league? Are they permitted to play a playoff? or will they go in the HL - as they rightly should.

[LongTimeLurker]

Ian Maxwell or Rod Petrie is reported to have said they could choose between the HL or LL, if they were to get into the playoff and won it.

Edited April 28, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Ian Maxwell or Rod Petrie is reported to have said they could choose between the HL or LL, if they were to get into the playoff and won it.

I wonder* if he's asked anyone in the LL or the HL about that.

 

* I don't.

[Dev]

10 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Ian Maxwell or Rod Petrie is reported to have said they could choose between the HL or LL, if they were to get into the playoff and won it.

However, they will have no excuses for thinking that this even possible under current SFA rules/constitution.

[Robert James]

On 28/04/2019 at 19:38, FairWeatherFan said:

I don't think the ERSJFA as a whole are that bothered about being in the pyramid. They don't want to be left behind and those of North of the Tay (who I believe are some of the most influential of those left) don't want to get stuck in the Highland League.

It's already quite late in the season and people are trying to organise their pre-seasons. I could see the East Region dragging things out and then trying to force a region wide Super League. Leading to another year of uncertainty.

On a side note if the SFA are now trying to impose 16 team leagues on Tier 6, it would be interesting to see what happens with the SoS if it ever drops to 15 or less.

Simple........The SFA would pretend it has the same powers as the English FA  (who move/transfer pyramid clubs around almost every season to maintain league numbers and 'balance'), and transfer Kello Rovers from the West Juniors, to fill the SoSL vacancy  !!!!  

From Uncle Bob                         1st April 2020

 

[mcruic]

I think it's worthwhile remembering that there are only around 1,000 football clubs in Scotland.  It might sound like a lot, but it shouldn't really be that complicated to get a single system that works for them all.  And I still think the Highland/Lowland divide is unnatural.  In terms of numbers of clubs, there are roughly a third in each of the North/East/West regions.  I think it's therefore sensible to have 3 Tier 5 leagues, and build the pyramid below.  Except it shouldn't be down to the people sitting at home dreaming up possible pyramid structures.  It's really NOT that complicated.  Any sensible pyramid system will not increase travel for any teams (unless they are successful and go further up the pyramid), and will reduce travel for teams at the bottom, even more so than currently.  For 1,000 clubs, a proper 3-region pyramid, with (say) 16-team divisions, would require only 5 Tiers (so the bottom Tier of Scottish football would be Tier 9 or 10). Teams in Tiers 8-10 would technically still be playing amateur football against the same teams (no real difference), and those in Tiers 5, 6 and 7 would be the seniors, juniors and top amateurs (again no real difference).  In terms of their opponents, teams would pretty much be playing many of the same teams they are playing now.

Edited April 29, 2019 by mcruic

[lowenan]

In Germany at tier 4, there are more promotion spots from areas with a larger population. If the west and east fully get on board, you could have the Highland League champion, the top two in the Lowland League, and the second bottom team in SPFL 2, play against each other for two promotion spots. Bottom team in SPFL 2 should go down.

Edited April 30, 2019 by lowenan

[Cyclizine]

7 hours ago, mcruic said:

I think it's worthwhile remembering that there are only around 1,000 football clubs in Scotland.  It might sound like a lot, but it shouldn't really be that complicated to get a single system that works for them all.  And I still think the Highland/Lowland divide is unnatural.  In terms of numbers of clubs, there are roughly a third in each of the North/East/West regions.  I think it's therefore sensible to have 3 Tier 5 leagues, and build the pyramid below.  Except it shouldn't be down to the people sitting at home dreaming up possible pyramid structures.  It's really NOT that complicated.  Any sensible pyramid system will not increase travel for any teams (unless they are successful and go further up the pyramid), and will reduce travel for teams at the bottom, even more so than currently.  For 1,000 clubs, a proper 3-region pyramid, with (say) 16-team divisions, would require only 5 Tiers (so the bottom Tier of Scottish football would be Tier 9 or 10). Teams in Tiers 8-10 would technically still be playing amateur football against the same teams (no real difference), and those in Tiers 5, 6 and 7 would be the seniors, juniors and top amateurs (again no real difference).  In terms of their opponents, teams would pretty much be playing many of the same teams they are playing now.

 

1 hour ago, lowenan said:

In Germany at tier 4, there are more promotion spots from areas with a larger population. If the west and east fully get on board, you could gave the Highland League champion, the top two in the Lowland League, and the second bottom team in SPFL 2, play against each other for two promotion spots. Bottom team in SPFL 2 should go down.

I think the Regionalliga style system is a fairly pragmatic option, but does rely on automatic relegation from SPFL2. It allows fairly rigid boundaries, avoids border clubs flip-flopping between regions season-on-season and reduces the issue of clubs in smaller regions having an 'easier' route to promotion in a shallower pyramid.

I'd personally base promotion on the number of licenced clubs in each region, rather than total clubs.

[Doonhamer1969]

On 26/04/2019 at 16:43, Clyde01 said:

 

Agree this is disappointing. With no developments under the highland league looking imminent a possible solution is to raise the lowland boundary to include all of Perthshire and Tayside/Angus. These clubs could then form a ‘north’ feeder to the lowland league.

Lowland league being fed by EOS, SOS, WOS and this new north section could work.

As for banks o Dee they could apply for membership directly to the highland league if they wished. Would also be good to bring the NCL in under the highland league even if the north juniors don’t want involved.

 

Banks of Dee already tried that.

They were refused entry to the HL.

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Banks of Dee already tried that.

They were refused entry to the HL.

They weren't refused entry. HL first had a vote over the number of applicants to accept as there were differences over that.

That vote was for only 3. The next vote weeks later was on which of the 4 applicants to accept and there 3 candidates won more votes.

This was all ten years ago as well now.

For the last few years Banks O'dee have met the criteria for entry to the HL and the league has been open to applications. It's Banks O'dee that have refused to apply.

[LongTimeLurker]

It's strange that that they can get away with that though, if progression is supposed to be a core principle of the pyramid.

[Marten]

16 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It's strange that that they can get away with that though, if progression is supposed to be a core principle of the pyramid.

Last time when Banks O'Dee were refused, the HFL weren't in the pyramid. Situation is different now.

[Cyclizine]

13 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It's strange that that they can get away with that though, if progression is supposed to be a core principle of the pyramid.

This was before the creation of "The Pyramid" though. No-one has yet applied to the HFL, they don't need to solicit applications, so the status quo remains. Progression is clearly possible in the North, just there's no clubs outwith the HFL that are keen.

 

43 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Banks of Dee already tried that.

They were refused entry to the HL.

No they weren't, many folk including myself have explained the circumstances behind the choice of clubs. Remember, this was before current licencing existed as well.

Banks o' Dee are sitting pretty: SFA member, licenced, guaranteed access to the Scottish Cup, walking the NRJFA Superleague and cups. It's almost like some of the big guns in the West; they're a big fish in a small pond.