Pyramid 2019/2020

[AlanCamelonfan]

56 minutes ago, superbigal said:

Okay I have a little meat to put on the bone. I will post identically on the Junior thread and on the EOS thread.  Again I express what I either have in fact or what I am reliably informed. Do not shoot the messenger as I believe I am "a reporting neutral with a few  critical views" and just want the best for everyone going forward.  

To start with one of the few subjective points I have previously made is describing (Wrongly in some opinions) John Greenhorn as what looks like a "Dinasaur" in terms of his apparent contributions to the Lower Sub-Group of the Pyramid working Group. Even his defenders were puzzled by some of the points I made.  This view is again fairly critical in light of what I have heard.  Anyway I ramble so to cut to the chase.

Apparently regarding the recent PWG meeting there have been no minutes circulated as yet.  What I have been told is the meeting was short and sweet around only 40-50 mins. I have heard Mr Maxwell said little to nothing throughout the meeting. I have heard (Not 100% sure who in person but assume Maxwell)  the SFA was not happy with the apparent EOS attitude and stalling. The EOS were still aggrieved about the Juniors potentially continuing their own fixtures and discipline while in the pyramid.  Once again they were told the SFA department could not cope with an extra 140 clubs that is why the SFA are content to allow the Juniors to continue administrating these things.  I have no other details but will post the full minutes as they should become available to myself when circulated.

The meeting on Monday between the associations was apparently illuminating. I am told it was not particularly a good one for John Greenhorn. David Baxter the EOS League secretary  played a significant role (He has never been involved for the EOS on the PWG) and came across very well to the Junior side of the meeting. Mr Baxter fired a few questions to Tom Johnston (Yes he was their for the East juniors)  Mr Baxter was apparently suprised at TJ's responses to questions fired at him regarding the PWG meetings. These answers apparently had a different slant on things as to what Mr Geenhorn had been reporting back.  Mr Baxter rightly would back Mr Greenhorn, however doubts surfaced when this included a question from Mr Baxter who asked TJ if he had any idea on the dates for the next PWG & SFA Board meetings. TJ gave him the dates 14th & 18th April. Mr Baxter asked TJ how he knew this, and TJ replied all the delegates including the EOS PWG representatives received an email with the dates.  Mr Baxter asked Mr Greenhorn  why he didn't pass this on and apparently Mr Greenhorn tried to blag his way out of a tricky situation. I am informed from the Junior side that  Mr Baxter may now have some doubts as to the 100% credibility of information being fed back to the EOS board.

Unfortunately for everyone on P&B with all their merger/amalgamation set ups etc, there was no discussion about bringing the regions together, but both parties have agreed to meet again for further talks after the PWG & SFA meeting in April.

To summarise even if everything I have printed above is 100% true ,it really means either nothing has moved forward or the Maxwell position is still in play. Hopefully the PWG minutes will shed some more light in due course. Hopefully minutes will also surface from the meeting between the associations.

Sounds like bugger all has happened. But if this is true then surely lowland league and eosfl stories from the meetings would be different?

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Sounds like bugger all has happened. But if this is true then surely lowland league and eosfl stories from the meetings would be different?

Baxter is both the EoS & Lowland Secretary. 1)So either nobody tells him anything, 2) only the EoS talks to him or 3) both LL & EoS have the same story.

Since bluebell1 gave those dates for the next pwg & sfa board meeting their source must be from the juniors or someone on the EoS is actually in the loop.

[pipedreamer]

Why would TJ be representing the Rast Region at a meeting between the ERSJFA and EoSFA. The guy thinks the world stops at harthill.

Doesn’t paint the Juniors in a great light given that the two sides met and the focus seems to be on Greenhorn, rather than putting cards on the table and seeing how to sort it out for the good of football clubs in the East of Scotland.  

IMO, if you are aligning disciplinary procedures then they need to be aligned fully, that means if you do something in SFA league you get the same punishment as if you do it in an SJFA league. Ie, fines. 

The boundary requires the SPFL and SFA to actually get up off their arse and either tell everyone it’s going to be moved and it’s been agreed by all parties to be moved, or just come out and say it won’t be changing and then everyone knows where they stand. Maxwell’s silence is deafening on this subject.

 

Minutes from important meetings should be made public to all fans etc to ensure transparency, especially when the future of their clubs is being discussed. These people deserve to see how they are being represented and if the focus is on clubs or in TJ’s case, ensuring he still has a job when all is done.

 

For what it’s worth the whole situation is a mess and brought about by TJ’s reluctance to engage with the SFA for years and pander to the large West Region clubs who didn’t want to leave their bubble while milking the Scottish cup. His hand has been forced by those East Region clubs realising that he wasn’t going to fight their corner.  I firmly believe that the EoS and LL go into these talks at a disadvantage as there will be informal talks in the corridors influencing Maxwell and SFA representatives.

[superbigal]

8 minutes ago, pipedreamer said:

Why would TJ be representing the Rast Region at a meeting between the ERSJFA and EoSFA. The guy thinks the world stops at harthill.

Doesn’t paint the Juniors in a great light given that the two sides met and the focus seems to be on Greenhorn, rather than putting cards on the table and seeing how to sort it out for the good of football clubs in the East of Scotland.  

 

TJ was invited by the East as he represents them at the PWG meetings (I am just reporting this as I also asked the question).

You are possibly correct that TJ took the opportunity to undermine Greenhorn.  They certainly have history on the PWG minutes.

Apparently the EOS were "not well prepared" was how I was told it went.

I think the key is that Baxter will apparently become a more involved player from the EOS side which I believe is viewed as a good move on the Junior side.

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by superbigal

[Dev]

1 hour ago, superbigal said:

Okay I have a little meat to put on the bone. I will post identically on the Junior thread and on the EOS thread.  Again I express what I either have in fact or what I am reliably informed. Do not shoot the messenger as I believe I am "a reporting neutral with a few  critical views" and just want the best for everyone going forward.  

To start with one of the few subjective points I have previously made is describing (Wrongly in some opinions) John Greenhorn as what looks like a "Dinasaur" in terms of his apparent contributions to the Lower Sub-Group of the Pyramid working Group. Even his defenders were puzzled by some of the points I made.  This view is again fairly critical in light of what I have heard.  Anyway I ramble so to cut to the chase.

Apparently regarding the recent PWG meeting there have been no minutes circulated as yet.  What I have been told is the meeting was short and sweet around only 40-50 mins. I have heard Mr Maxwell said little to nothing throughout the meeting. I have heard (Not 100% sure who in person but assume Maxwell)  the SFA was not happy with the apparent EOS attitude and stalling. The EOS were still aggrieved about the Juniors potentially continuing their own fixtures and discipline while in the pyramid.  Once again they were told the SFA department could not cope with an extra 140 clubs that is why the SFA are content to allow the Juniors to continue administrating these things.  I have no other details but will post the full minutes as they should become available to myself when circulated.

The meeting on Monday between the associations was apparently illuminating. I am told it was not particularly a good one for John Greenhorn. David Baxter the EOS League secretary  played a significant role (He has never been involved for the EOS on the PWG) and came across very well to the Junior side of the meeting. Mr Baxter fired a few questions to Tom Johnston (Yes he was their for the East juniors)  Mr Baxter was apparently suprised at TJ's responses to questions fired at him regarding the PWG meetings. These answers apparently had a different slant on things as to what Mr Geenhorn had been reporting back.  Mr Baxter rightly would back Mr Greenhorn, however doubts surfaced when this included a question from Mr Baxter who asked TJ if he had any idea on the dates for the next PWG & SFA Board meetings. TJ gave him the dates 14th & 18th April. Mr Baxter asked TJ how he knew this, and TJ replied all the delegates including the EOS PWG representatives received an email with the dates.  Mr Baxter asked Mr Greenhorn  why he didn't pass this on and apparently Mr Greenhorn tried to blag his way out of a tricky situation. I am informed from the Junior side that  Mr Baxter may now have some doubts as to the 100% credibility of information being fed back to the EOS board.

Unfortunately for everyone on P&B with all their merger/amalgamation set ups etc, there was no discussion about bringing the regions together, but both parties have agreed to meet again for further talks after the PWG & SFA meeting in April.

To summarise even if everything I have printed above is 100% true ,it really means either nothing has moved forward or the Maxwell position is still in play. Hopefully the PWG minutes will shed some more light in due course. Hopefully minutes will also surface from the meeting between the associations.

I remain puzzled by the SFA being, apparently,  unable to afford additional Licencing or Discipline staff yet it can afford to continue to fund an individual allocated to "administer" 140 or so Junior clubs which are well capable of organising and administering themselves, regardless as to how the Pyramid is structured.

These three new leagues wish to be Senior, so be Senior, start acting like it. Accept individual responsibility and take the credit when they get it right rather than presume that any success is down to the SFA's Admin. They have the ability to go without this spoon-feeding/leading by the nostrils from the SFA, via the SFA Admin.  Make up your own minds about how you wish to go ahead and get on with it instead of playing the "professional victim" who is always looking to blame some-one or something else when things don't go according to plan. They have enough clubs and support to fund an independent existence without unnecessary outside "guidance", I really mean interference. 

Just considering the geographical spread of the three Junior Regions (and the fuss over clubs travel distances to matches on this web site) wouldn't it seem obvious that the three Junior Regions should administer themselves? Why have some-one from Glasgow directing traffic in the East or North? The West can look after itself!

In any case the issue of Discipline, Registrations, etc can be dealt with using modern technology. I notice the a nearby smaller footballing nation is introducing this sort of thing for clubs of similar standard in time for 2019/20. Surely this cannot be an insurmountable issue for the SFA, particularly if they cannot "afford the staff" but can afford an entirely superfluous  Juniors admin person - and have to do so because the Junior Regions are so incapable?  They ain't!

Sadly, in many ways, particularly for the Junior traditions, the East Region Juniors have been significantly weakened following the departure  of the main South of Tay Bridge clubs to the EOS. Unless this is going to be reversed  (and why would that seem likely?) the best thing all round is a Merger. However, the EOS is a competent organisation and the ERJFA needs to set aside the disappointment and move forward in a constructive manner. Even the most ardent Juniors fan doesn't pretend that the remaining East Juniors are, on balance, comparable with the 2019/20 EOS Premier Division, so why go through this fantasy i.e. pretending that they are on a par. That boat has sailed. Get on with it. Take responsibility so that the better ERJFA clubs can rise to their true level without unnecessary hold-ups. Then we shall see a high quality semi-pro league in the east feeding into the Lowland League. The same would follow in the West, and North, PDQ. Don't play of-field games or be political pawns in the hands of those who may not be that bothered about you (rather than their wage packet).

The present strategy of a tired tiny minority of alleged Juniors supporters seems to have some sort of "hard done by / lets Provoke anyone who doesn't agree and use the reaction against 'em" approach at its' core. Wind up anyone who thinks differently or smear them, they're fair game, and the game is the important thing - rather than the good of semi-pro football.  Of course, this is just from a very small group who are dead scared of change. In olden days in Yorkshire they used to call them Luddites. Now we have the Scottish semi-pre football version! There is a risk that their attitudes will create resentment and grievances for years to come. All of which is avoidable. Also, it is not representative of those many thousands of Juniors supporters who have their clubs at heart. Time to ditch the "Nay-Sayers" and move forward.

[vikingTON]

Ian Maxwell strikes me as being hopelessly out of his depth at this and just about every other aspect of his job at the SFA. Which is a major part of the reason why we are where we are at the end of March. 

[GNU_Linux]

Ian Maxwell strikes me as being hopelessly out of his depth at this and just about every other aspect of his job at the SFA. Which is a major part of the reason why we are where we are at the end of March. 

 

I feel like going into this he hadn't grasped what a fractured mess football outside the SPFL is in Scotland. Seemingly still hasn't.

 

[Jason King]

37 minutes ago, virginton said:

Ian Maxwell strikes me as being hopelessly out of his depth at this and just about every other aspect of his job at the SFA. Which is a major part of the reason why we are where we are at the end of March. 

To think, I had such high hopes following his stellar success at Partick.

[Sergeant Wilson]

41 minutes ago, virginton said:

Ian Maxwell strikes me as being hopelessly out of his depth at this and just about every other aspect of his job at the SFA. Which is a major part of the reason why we are where we are at the end of March. 

But he played the game, he sees it from all sides. He knows the game inside out. 

[PatP]

The SFA appointed Alex McLeish. If all the evidence is that they know nothing about football at the highest level, there is no chance they will have a clue about how to run a proper pyramid.  There is no need nor reason for 2 leagues at the same level in the same geographical area. It remains illogical to have a Highland and Lowland catchment area where teams in one just play in the other. 

The whole country knows that any regional structure needs to split central Scotland into 2 areas.  It's one thing the SFA should be learning from the SJFA.  Excuses that the number of licenced clubs is insufficient are valid. But a commitment to split the LL in two from 2020 would be fine. Then you could reconstruct the boundary line now, merge the east, bring in the west, approve the licences  and create at least 2 leagues of 12 - 16 at LL level at the end of next season depending on numbers of qualifying clubs.

But Alex M Leish. 

[Ginaro]

David Baxter as LL secretary has replied to emails from myself and other people on here, hopefully he gets more involved as so far nothing to doubt he's a sensible person.

Some interesting tweets from last night:

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Ginaro

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

David Baxter as LL secretary has replied to emails from myself and other people on here, hopefully he gets more involved as so far nothing to doubt he's a sensible person.

Some interesting tweets from last night:

 

I can attest to David Baxter being a quite responsive person to queries. It was through him I received responses confirming the HL/LL boundary and on the relegation situation of the LL following Selkirk's demise.

[San Starko Rover]

Nothing moved on and next meeting not until mid April. Really can’t see how it’s a done deal for SJFA to join next season if there’s still no agreement at this late stage.

[patriot1]

It's official.

SFA have proposed that there is a four way playoff for access to the Lowland League starting next season.

The boards of the EOS AND Lowland League have proposed rejecting this proposal. They are consulting their clubs.

[patriot1]

I should say that the Tayside question is completely blanked in this document. Si I assume if a Tayside team wins the East Region super League they would enter the LL playoff.

[AlanCamelonfan]

9 minutes ago, patriot1 said:

It's official.

SFA have proposed that there is a four way playoff for access to the Lowland League starting next season.

The boards of the EOS AND Lowland League have proposed rejecting this proposal. They are consulting their clubs.

Well I definatley wont be attending any game vs ersjfa team as that is a disgrace 

[AlanCamelonfan]

17 minutes ago, patriot1 said:

It's official.

SFA have proposed that there is a four way playoff for access to the Lowland League starting next season.

The boards of the EOS AND Lowland League have proposed rejecting this proposal. They are consulting their clubs.

Although if lowland league reject ithe surely it won't happen 

[GNU_Linux]

As per PWG rules members are able to veto proposals & said proposal can't be implimented without agreement of all parties. In this case two parties are looking like vetoing. Pretty sure the SFA can't strongarm through any change either as per the rules.

[FairWeatherFan]

 

[superbigal]

It's hardly a cat out of the bag.  Remember Maxwell did say it was a done deal in October.  

I did say I expected the SFA to announce this weeks ago. 

No idea if significance in timing or not.

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by superbigal