Pyramid 2019/2020

[GordonS]

When you're talking about population parity and where to draw the line, it's useful to have a look at a cartogram. Obviously, we need to find a balance between travel distances and strict demographics.

[FairWeatherFan]

Current Boundary

Highland League catchment area: 75

HFL (18), North Region (32), NCL (9), North of Tay East Region (16)

Lowland League catchment area: 153

LL (15), EoS (39), SoS (16), West Region (63), South of Tay East Region (20)

 

 

East Region into Lowland

Highland League catchment area: 59

HFL (18), North Region (32), NCL (9)

Lowland League catchment area: 169

LL (15), EoS (39), SoS (16), West Region (63), East Region (36)

[Burnie_man]

17 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Current Boundary

Highland League catchment area: 75

HFL (18), North Region (32), NCL (9), North of Tay East Region (16)

Lowland League catchment area: 153

LL (15), EoS (39), SoS (16), West Region (63), South of Tay East Region (20)

 

 

East Region into Lowland

Highland League catchment area: 59

HFL (18), North Region (32), NCL (9)

Lowland League catchment area: 169

LL (15), EoS (39), SoS (16), West Region (63), East Region (36)

That illustrates that regardless of what happens, you'd still want LL to have more of a chance at SPFL than HL. 

eg if and when League 2 relegate the bottom club and second bottom into a play off, you'd want the LL automatically promoted to replace team 42, with LL second place, HL Champs and League 2 second bottom playing-off, or something like that.

[Enigma]

That illustrates that regardless of what happens, you'd still want LL to have more of a chance at SPFL than HL. 
eg if and when League 2 relegate the bottom club and second bottom into a play off, you'd want the LL automatically promoted to replace team 42, with LL second place, HL Champs and League 2 second bottom playing-off, or something like that.

You could have a situation where the LL 2nd place is 20 points of 1st but gets a bash at promotion but the HL 2nd place on goal difference doesn’t. So, no, it indicates the LL should be split East-West. Even so I think Taysiders go North.

[Spyro]

I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and I know I’ll get hell for some of the ideas here, but here is a different perspective on things...

FORGET who the actual teams are in each league and look at the structure itself, along with the playoff systems, I think it will sort out the “strong league v weak league” issue. The only issue is some clearly weak league playing along side stronger but so what if promotion/relegation is fair?!

 

Obvisiously it’s already too far gone to do things this way,  but I really think it’s the only sensible way of doing this...

league reconstruction.pdf

[FairWeatherFan]

8 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

That illustrates that regardless of what happens, you'd still want LL to have more of a chance at SPFL than HL. 

eg if and when League 2 relegate the bottom club and second bottom into a play off, you'd want the LL automatically promoted to replace team 42, with LL second place, HL Champs and League 2 second bottom playing-off, or something like that.

Main reason for posting it up was just to show it's 16 clubs. Simply saying they go North or South doesn't really change anything.

Longer term you would have to look at a 3 region split just with how the Lowland area surpasses the North. However, I would say in a 3 region split I do think that Tayside should go North.

 

[Robert James]

On 05/03/2019 at 18:41, gogsy said:

 

 

Glenrothes Strollers Football Club

2 hrs ·

Club statement

We can confirm that Glenrothes strollers FC have made an official application to the East of Scotland league.

Many years now we have had a fantastic youth set up and have had football teams available through the age groups from U5’s to adult.

...

This step was taken to further develop our pathway for the players and to grow the competitive game through the pyramid system already set up. Success of the application would see competitive football at a good level in the local area for players to aspire to and support.

We hope you can support us in our growth and development.

Glenrothes Strollers FC committee

Congratulations, and best wishes for 2019/20.

[Robert James]

13 hours ago, virginton said:

'Let's bullshit our way through until we need to cobble together another solution for the higher tier' is not actually a credible plan. The place for Tayside clubs is quite clearly alongside those in Angus and Aberdeenshire to form a credible feeder to the HL instead of playing the likes of Tweedmouth just to replicate the boundaries of a failed Junior setup. 

Spot on.

 

11 hours ago, Enigma said:

A LL covering, what 70%? Of Scotland’s population would be a complete joke. Tayside clubs must go North.

The correct solution.

 

12 hours ago, virginton said:

It won't be possible to find a credible solution for the north if Tayside clubs are already admitted within a different setup; if a viable feeder gets set up for the NE region then those clubs would oppose being put in their right feeder league - all the more effectively once they're actually inside the tent with everyone else. 

The only leverage that the SFA has to bring about a balanced and functioning national setup involves sticking to the one firm dividing line that everyone has just agreed on and obliging clubs to find their place either side of that. Once you start moving those goalposts then the Tier 5 structure as it stands currently is destined to fail.  And sorting that predictable mess out would make Brexit seem like a stunning piece of effective governance. 

A very good assessment.

Dundee & Angus clubs in the Lowland catchment area, is just WRONG.

The pyramid must be balanced, otherwise we will be arguing about it for the next 10 years.  Evolution NOT revolution is the way ahead.

[superbigal]

A LL covering, what 70%? Of Scotland’s population would be a complete joke. Tayside clubs must go North.

I get fed up of this population point.Okay the lowland boundary should be massively moved south immediately to satisfy this argument.

Eos disbanded and majority of its clubs told they are now feeder to highland league.

 

Kelty hearts also sent north from lowland league probably a few more as well.

 

Bet that would go down well.

 

 

 

 

 

[Robert James]

On 13/03/2019 at 11:44, Ginaro said:

Possible tier 7 conferences based on current positions and points.

No need for 2 EoS tier 7 "conferences" next season, unless there is a late surge of Junior club applications, which is now very unlikely  Instead, move directly to 2 permanent tier 7 divisions, geographically arranged.  No need for a  hierarchical tier 8.

Yes I know some posters will argue that one tier 7 league may be stronger than the other, but it doesn't matter. Introduce 3 up 3 down between the EoS Premier and the 2 regional divisions, with the 2 champion clubs being promoted automatically, plus a 'north'/'south' play-off for the 3rd promotion spot

Less travelling, more derbies, player preference, etc. This will be the option preferred by the 'lesser' EoS clubs, in my view.

[Burnie_man]

No need for 2 EoS tier 7 "conferences" next season, unless there is a late surge of Junior club applications, which is now very unlikely  Instead, move directly to 2 permanent tier 7 divisions, geographically arranged.  No need for a  hierarchical tier 8.
Yes I know some posters will argue that one tier 7 league may be stronger than the other, but it doesn't matter. Introduce 3 up 3 down between the EoS Premier and the 2 regional divisions, with the 2 champion clubs being promoted automatically, plus a 'north'/'south' play-off for the 3rd promotion spot
Less travelling, more derbies, player preference, etc. This will be the option preferred by the 'lesser' EoS clubs, in my view.

There isn't really a desire for regional leagues next season and for half the clubs it doesn't work very well anyway. We could be in a regional league with Peebles and St.Andrews. It is most likely to be two seeded conferences.

[Burnie_man]

A very good assessment.
Dundee & Angus clubs in the Lowland catchment area, is just WRONG.
The pyramid must be balanced, otherwise we will be arguing about it for the next 10 years.  Evolution NOT revolution is the way ahead.

The Pyramid wont be balanced by 16 clubs.

[Marten]

9 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

A very good assessment.
Dundee & Angus clubs in the Lowland catchment area, is just WRONG.
The pyramid must be balanced, otherwise we will be arguing about it for the next 10 years.  Evolution NOT revolution is the way ahead.

The Pyramid wont be balanced by 16 clubs.

And tbh, other than Lochee & Broughty I can't really see any north of Tay club being capable of making the step up to tier 5 in the medium-long term, regardless of whether it's HL or LL. So for the sake of a decent pyramid, I have no issue in getting 2 clubs into the tier 5 league they prefer.

[Burnie_man]

And tbh, other than Lochee & Broughty I can't really see any north of Tay club being capable of making the step up to tier 5 in the medium-long term, regardless of whether it's HL or LL. So for the sake of a decent pyramid, I have no issue in getting 2 clubs into the tier 5 league they prefer.

Agree. Once you have the west feeding into the LL the chances of any Tayside club getting there also diminishes. I think you may get Lochee in there eventually if they get Licenced but they wont get anywhere near SPFL.

I agree that Tayside clubs should team up with NRJFA and feed the HL, but in reality if they feed the LL little will change, and as you say it gets the pyramid working.

Then again, the line may not move and/or nothing comes of the meeting and all this is immaterial. We'll see.

[FairWeatherFan]

40 minutes ago, Marten said:

And tbh, other than Lochee & Broughty I can't really see any north of Tay club being capable of making the step up to tier 5 in the medium-long term, regardless of whether it's HL or LL. So for the sake of a decent pyramid, I have no issue in getting 2 clubs into the tier 5 league they prefer.

I don't recall Montrose Roselea being a East Region Super League club. They're now one of the top North Juniors.

Carnoustie & Forfar WE could get up to Highland League level as well I'd say.

You've just got to get them licensed and the other leading Tayside clubs licensed.

[Auld Heid]

I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and I know I’ll get hell for some of the ideas here, but here is a different perspective on things...
FORGET who the actual teams are in each league and look at the structure itself, along with the playoff systems, I think it will sort out the “strong league v weak league” issue. The only issue is some clearly weak league playing along side stronger but so what if promotion/relegation is fair?!
 
Obvisiously it’s already too far gone to do things this way,  but I really think it’s the only sensible way of doing this...
league reconstruction.pdf

Until you agree the basics the pyramid remains a concept.

A solution must include all Scotland not just parts.

Basic rules on what is required to be in that tier and next one up. More importantly a plan B to avoid teams stopping progress. To succeed teams must flow both ways between tiers.

The PWG couldn't agree night follows day - SFA need to intervene and show leadership (won't hold my breath)

[Black & Red Socks]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

There isn't really a desire for regional leagues next season and for half the clubs it doesn't work very well anyway. We could be in a regional league with Peebles and St.Andrews. It is most likely to be two seeded conferences.

But when do you stop creating conferences? Once a conference is created does it stay that way season on season or is a seeded redraw of conferences made each season? I appreciate all we’re doing is indulging in speculation here, but neither of these seem satisfactory- far better to go to tiered leagues straight away (I fully understand that this might be hard to garner support for due to the relegation of teams from Tier 6 all the way to Tier 8) or have one final season of seeded conferences to allow allocation of Tier 7 and Tier 8 places thereafter. This latter model being the one I assume would have to be followed should there either be a merger or an influx of new clubs anyway.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Black & Red Socks

[Burnie_man]

But when do you stop creating conferences? Once a conference is created does it stay that way season on season or is a seeded redraw of conferences made each season? I appreciate all we’re doing is indulging in speculation here, but neither of these seem satisfactory- far better to go to tiered leagues straight away (I fully understand that this might be hard to garner support for due to the relegation of teams from Tier 6 all the way to Tier or have one final season of seeded conferences to allow allocation of Tier 7 and Tier 8 places thereafter. This latter model being the one I assume would have to be followed should there either be a merger or an influx of new clubs anyway.

That won't happen for the reasons you stated. Club finishes a point below the new cut off line for tier 7, and suddenly finds itself in tier 8, after having started the season in tier 6. Also Glenrothes are joining and think they are joining at tier 7, same with Strollers and potentially Syngenta.

I hope next season is that last one of conferences though.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, Robert James said:

No need for 2 EoS tier 7 "conferences" next season, unless there is a late surge of Junior club applications, which is now very unlikely  Instead, move directly to 2 permanent tier 7 divisions, geographically arranged.  No need for a  hierarchical tier 8.

Yes I know some posters will argue that one tier 7 league may be stronger than the other, but it doesn't matter. Introduce 3 up 3 down between the EoS Premier and the 2 regional divisions, with the 2 champion clubs being promoted automatically, plus a 'north'/'south' play-off for the 3rd promotion spot

Less travelling, more derbies, player preference, etc. This will be the option preferred by the 'lesser' EoS clubs, in my view.

Part of the reason you might see conferences next year, even with just those teams. Is the fact you might have to split the Edinburgh teams into different divisions.

There's also the fact there might be the mid term preference of with just those clubs of say:

EoS Premier 16

EoS First 14

EoS Second 12

Which a conference set up would better arrange.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Part of the reason you might see conferences next year, even with just those teams. Is the fact you might have to split the Edinburgh teams into different divisions.

There's also the fact there might be the mid term preference of with just those clubs of say:

EoS Premier 16

EoS First 14

EoS Second 12

Which a conference set up would better arrange.

 

All things being equal (and they might not be of course), that would be my preferred set-up for 2020/21.