Pyramid 2019/2020

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

Theres also the question of how would the Challenge/League Cup change as LL/HL clubs get to take part & is a decent incentive to finish in top x of the league.

If it goes through there could a knock on effect to the EOS/SOS playoffs as reserve sides currently can't take part. With reserve clubs above LL in the system the grounds for not allowing them would no longer be valid.

The gruesome twosome are the only two wanting colts on. Motherwell did but no longer as the person behind their push, ex-reserve coach Stephen Craigan left the club. He was behind it on the basis of the reserve league being a shitshow (which it is) but reforming the reserve league is a better idea than shoving colts in & creating a new tier 5. Really bad timing when the process of building a pyramid is still ongoing.

 

I think ultimately there will be a bribe to get this through  eg. the guarantee of purchasing 250 tickets at £10 idea or similar mentioned above. Four games with that sort of guarantee is £10k gate income, there may also be a slice of SPFL prize money offered to the other 8 clubs, and maybe guaranteed Challenge Cup and League Cup entry.   

They'll dangle some attractive carrots.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Challenge cup and league cup entry where you'll be pumped out both by start of August , leaving 10 months of league games and maybe 1-2 Scottish cup matches if you're lucky.

League Cup you'd have 4 group games  eg. Cove Rangers v Hearts & Spartans v Kilmarnock this season. Challenge Cup also a chance of going a couple of rounds (maybe even a foreign tie....) and of course later Scottish Cup entry.

I'd imagine that's attractive to all LL clubs.

I'm no saying I agree with colt teams and SPFL3 - I don't - but if it's going to happen there's no denying some will be very interested in it.

 

[Burnie_man]

Just now, gogsy said:

I don't agree with it either, best option is the current SPFL teams manage to block it. If it does happen then the Lowland league  teams that have an eye on SPFL would have to go for joining, if they remain in Lowland league they would still have to get through this SPFL3 league anyway.

It's sole purpose is to get OF colt teams into and then further up the Pyramid, after the first (or second season) SPFL3 will consist of LL, HL and a couple of L2 rejects, what then? It would just be a 10 team version of the LL with a few HL chucked in.  Viable on a national basis?

As I said, it depends how big the bribe is to L2 clubs (a softer landing than LL/HL?), and what's on offer to LL and HL to join (LC entry, easier entry to SPFL2, prizemoney etc).

I think it will happen. It's Scottish fitba.

[Marshmallo]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

If it’s to happen then the latter idea would be of more benefit for non-league clubs and I’m sure the LL clubs would like to see it, EK, BSC, Spartans & Kelty Hearts all get in and perhaps one or two more as I’m not sure they will find four HL clubs willing to take part, Cove Rangers and maybe one other. Depending on how they do it I’m sure Linlithgow and Bonnyrigg would be sitting up and taking notice.  Whitehill and Dalbeattie would also love it as it saves their bacon from possible relegation, and I’m sure Albion Rovers would be all for it as well for the same reasons, they might fall to SPFL3 as opposed to LL (if it were implemented next season)

How would playing four Colt teams and four HL teams be more attractive to any of those clubs than playing in a strong Lowland League against real football clubs?

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Marshmallo said:

How would playing four Colt teams and four HL teams be more attractive to any of those clubs than playing in a strong Lowland League against real football clubs?

As I said, 4 Bet Fred League Cup group games (Spartans played Kilmarnock and St.Mirren this season, Cove played Hearts) and the income/prestige it brings, Irn Bru Challenge Cup access and the possibility of a decent tie, possible SPFL prize money which has been talked about (eg SPFL team 42 receive £40k+), and most of all a chance to negotiate easier entry into SPFL2 than is currently available from the LL (maybe two up/down from SPFL2).   There will be 8 "real" clubs and two colts initially, after one or two seasons there will be no colts and 10 "real" teams, which after a few seasons will likely include the likes of Albion Rovers, Berwick Rangers, Cowdenbeath etc.

Regardless of what you or I think about the idea, if that is what is on offer then East Kilbride, Spartans, Kelty Hearts, Cove Rangers etc will probably bite your hand off for the chance.

[Stag Nation]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

It’s a batshit crazy idea but one way or the other this is going to happen.  I’ve read two options, a two year trial with Rangers and Celtic tagging onto L2, they can’t get promoted or relegated and they guarantee to buy 250 tickets at £10 for every away game.   The other idea is SPFL3 with HL and LL making up the numbers.

£2,500 is well beyond Rangers credit limit.

[Salvo Montalbano]

As I said, 4 Bet Fred League Cup group games (Spartans played Kilmarnock and St.Mirren this season, Cove played Hearts) and the income/prestige it brings, Irn Bru Challenge Cup access and the possibility of a decent tie, possible SPFL prize money which has been talked about (eg SPFL team 42 receive £40k+), and most of all a chance to negotiate easier entry into SPFL2 than is currently available from the LL (maybe two up/down from SPFL2).   There will be 8 "real" clubs and two colts initially, after one or two seasons there will be no colts and 10 "real" teams, which after a few seasons will likely include the likes of Albion Rovers, Berwick Rangers, Cowdenbeath etc.
Regardless of what you or I think about the idea, if that is what is on offer then East Kilbride, Spartans, Kelty Hearts, Cove Rangers etc will probably bite your hand off for the chance.

You can't just add in more teams to the BetFred Cup Group Stage though - if we add even the 6 extra SHFL and SLFL clubs into the mix you'd either need another group or two, bigger groups or more teams entering at the knock out stages. Given the newly signed TV contract with Premier Sports I can't see that being a viable option as they'll be expecting to show the likes of Hibs, Hearts etc. or whoever don't get into Europe in the groups.

[Jack Burton]

Sounds like a horrid league to me - 4 Highland league teams plus 2 to 4 Colt sides. 8 away trips to the Highlands plus a mimimum of 4 away against Colt sides.

Cant see it getting voted through by the SPFL clubs. The majority of fans are dead against it.

[Burnie_man]

You can't just add in more teams to the BetFred Cup Group Stage though - if we add even the 6 extra SHFL and SLFL clubs into the mix you'd either need another group or two, bigger groups or more teams entering at the knock out stages. Given the newly signed TV contract with Premier Sports I can't see that being a viable option as they'll be expecting to show the likes of Hibs, Hearts etc. or whoever don't get into Europe in the groups.

I doubt adding 6 extra teams will be a showstopper if it means they can get this through.

[Marten]

32 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

1 hour ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

You can't just add in more teams to the BetFred Cup Group Stage though - if we add even the 6 extra SHFL and SLFL clubs into the mix you'd either need another group or two, bigger groups or more teams entering at the knock out stages. Given the newly signed TV contract with Premier Sports I can't see that being a viable option as they'll be expecting to show the likes of Hibs, Hearts etc. or whoever don't get into Europe in the groups.

I doubt adding 6 extra teams will be a showstopper if it means they can get this through.

Just give the TV companies games of the ugly sisters' colts in return and they'll be happy...

[GNU_Linux]

If SPFL3 gets the go ahead do we foresee other clubs trying to add their colts into the regional leagues?

[Pyramidic]

1 hour ago, GNU_Linux said:

If SPFL3 gets the go ahead do we foresee other clubs trying to add their colts into the regional leagues?

I can foresee the Reserve/ Development League for SPFL clubs being given the status of a "Regional League" which would allow for promotion (with not much coming back down the other way).  The issue here I suppose is that the league has been de-regulated in the sense that games can be played on training grounds.

[Robert James]

8 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

It’s a batshit crazy idea but one way or the other this is going to happen.  I’ve read two options, a two year trial with Rangers and Celtic tagging onto L2, they can’t get promoted or relegated and they guarantee to buy 250 tickets at £10 for every away game.   The other idea is SPFL3 with HL and LL making up the numbers.

If it’s to happen then the latter idea would be of more benefit for non-league clubs and I’m sure the LL clubs would like to see it, EK, BSC, Spartans & Kelty Hearts all get in and perhaps one or two more as I’m not sure they will find four HL clubs willing to take part, Cove Rangers and maybe one other. Depending on how they do it I’m sure Linlithgow and Bonnyrigg would be sitting up and taking notice.  Whitehill and Dalbeattie would also love it as it saves their bacon from possible relegation, and I’m sure Albion Rovers would be all for it as well for the same reasons, they might fall to SPFL3 as opposed to LL (if it were implemented next season)

It would also open up the opportunity to relegate and promote more clubs between SPFL3 and LL (maybe 2up/down).   The knock-on effect of course is that more (licenced) EoS clubs get bumped upto the LL to make up the numbers, and in turn more clubs qualify for the EoS Premier next season.

Interesting times and it all adds to the confused picture at the moment. In an ideal world you deal with SPFL3 first, then move onto LL/LL2, then you start looking at EoS level and the Juniors, but Scottish football is never that simple, and I have my doubts this would happen for next season.

Gala Fairydean Rovers would be interested in SPFL3.  Good sized crowds, excellent ground and facilities.  As far as I can recall, GFR came close to being elected into the league when Peterhead & Elgin were chosen instead. 

[stanley]

If there is to be an SPFL3 (I certainly hope there won't be) then it should be done based on league positions not on facilities and the fact that teams applied for the league and were rejected many years ago.  

Edited February 19, 2019 by stanley

[stanley]

SPFL3 is an absolutely terrible idea which is why it might well end up happening.  Who knows how they come to decision in Scottish football?  Anything that potentially benefits the Old Firm seems likely to end up happening.

So many things wrong with the idea. 

1) Colts being part of the pyramid.  No first teams want to play them and no fans want to watch them and it shows complete disregard for clubs in the lower leagues.  Also, I really fail to see the benefits for younger players in the colt teams.  They would get far more benefits if they went out on loan.

2) The idea of it being a mix of HL, LL and colt teams is ridiculous.  Highly doubt the HL teams would be keen to be elevated up to playing teams in the central belt and colt teams.  We certainly have no need for another national league.

[GordonS]

Honestly, I'd much rather see Linlithgow Rose back in the East Juniors than in an SPFL3. Playing opponents 4 times a season, 12 trips to the Highlands, 4 trips to the god-awful soulless OF reserves, and having them come to us 4 times with their cretinous hangers-on? No, I couldn't be arsed with that at all. I'd go to the odd home game but I can think of better ways to spend my Saturdays than that shite. I'd go and watch Linlithgow Rugby before I'd watch us play the arsecheeks' colts.

[Auld Heid]

9 hours ago, GordonS said:

Honestly, I'd much rather see Linlithgow Rose back in the East Juniors than in an SPFL3. Playing opponents 4 times a season, 12 trips to the Highlands, 4 trips to the god-awful soulless OF reserves, and having them come to us 4 times with their cretinous hangers-on? No, I couldn't be arsed with that at all. I'd go to the odd home game but I can think of better ways to spend my Saturdays than that shite. I'd go and watch Linlithgow Rugby before I'd watch us play the arsecheeks' colts.

The problem you have is the PWG members don't seem to be able to agree basics never mind progress to a workable structure that suits all.   The pyramid remains more a concept discussed on P&B than an actual fully working reality.

Having clubs licensed is great - but the EoS still has teams who are unlicensed and stop progress if they win the league.  If that's a barrier to a fluid promotion and relegation system then that needs addressed first.   

It will never be a proper pyramid until there is an agreeable solution in place which also include the West, Tayside and North.  Again it's not a proper pyramid if it doesn't include solutions for all of Scotland.

Including Colt teams - may not appeal to some.  But the harsh reality is the bigger clubs would benefit from having a competitve league for their younger players to develop.  The longer the PWG members argue amongst themselves the more credible the suggestion may become - because it's a solution ready to go.   Pretty sure it won't be long before the SFA get fed up with the lack of progress with the PWG and faced with pressure for introducing Colt Teams may be swayed by Bigger Clubs. 

[Fife Journeyman]

might get shot down here but say the LL line was moved to incorporate the Tayside clubs, would the following set up be the end of the world with the winners of the 2 top leagues playing off for LL ?. The problem you have is who would administer these leagues. EOS or  ERJFA??. everyone in the pyramid and able to obtain licences. ( teams have been put in leagues as illustration purposes only)

PREM NORTH-   HOB,Dundonald,Crossgates,Jeanfield,St Andrews,Oakley,Broughty,Lochee, Thornton,Forfar WE, Tayport,Carnoustie, Kirrie,

DIV 1 NORTH-  Downfield,Glenrothes,Burntisland,Hillfield,Scone,Dundee NE, Luncarty,Kinnoull,East Craigie,Blairgowrie, Dundee Violet,  Lochee Harp

DIV 2 NORTH-   Brechin Vics, Arbroath Vics, Forfar Albion,C.Angus,Lochore,Rosyth,Kirkcaldy,Newburgh,Lochgelly.  ( invite 3 or more new applicants)

PREM SOUTH-  Penicuik,Musselburgh,Newtongrange,Dunbar,Bonyrigg,Boness,Tranent,Dalkeith,Broxburn,Linlithgow,Camelon,Preston,Whitburn,Fauldhouse,

DIV 1 SOUTH-  Leith,Easthouses,Coldstream,Arniston,Sauchie,LTHV,Haddington,Tynecastle,HWU,Blackburn,Stirling Uni, Pumpherston,Armadale,Livingston

DIV 2 SOUTH-  Peebles,Hawick,Tweedmouth,Dunipace,Eyemouth,Craigroyston,Edin Utd,Ormiston,Bathgate,Harthill,W.Calder,Stoneyburn ( any new applicants)

 

6 competitive leagues.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Fife Journeyman said:

might get shot down here but say the LL line was moved to incorporate the Tayside clubs, would the following set up be the end of the world with the winners of the 2 top leagues playing off for LL ?. The problem you have is who would administer these leagues. EOS or  ERJFA??. everyone in the pyramid and able to obtain licences. ( teams have been put in leagues as illustration purposes only)

PREM NORTH-   HOB,Dundonald,Crossgates,Jeanfield,St Andrews,Oakley,Broughty,Lochee, Thornton,Forfar WE, Tayport,Carnoustie, Kirrie,

DIV 1 NORTH-  Downfield,Glenrothes,Burntisland,Hillfield,Scone,Dundee NE, Luncarty,Kinnoull,East Craigie,Blairgowrie, Dundee Violet,  Lochee Harp

DIV 2 NORTH-   Brechin Vics, Arbroath Vics, Forfar Albion,C.Angus,Lochore,Rosyth,Kirkcaldy,Newburgh,Lochgelly.  ( invite 3 or more new applicants)

PREM SOUTH-  Penicuik,Musselburgh,Newtongrange,Dunbar,Bonyrigg,Boness,Tranent,Dalkeith,Broxburn,Linlithgow,Camelon,Preston,Whitburn,Fauldhouse,

DIV 1 SOUTH-  Leith,Easthouses,Coldstream,Arniston,Sauchie,LTHV,Haddington,Tynecastle,HWU,Blackburn,Stirling Uni, Pumpherston,Armadale,Livingston

DIV 2 SOUTH-  Peebles,Hawick,Tweedmouth,Dunipace,Eyemouth,Craigroyston,Edin Utd,Ormiston,Bathgate,Harthill,W.Calder,Stoneyburn ( any new applicants)

 

6 competitive leagues.

I proposed something similar a few weeks back, but with an overall (non-regional) EoS Premier (Premier based on what it will look like next season).   I think most people aren't averse to Tayside clubs coming in IF the boundary was moved (although moving it doesn't make any sense IMO), what they have aversion to is two competitor leagues covering the same area................

 

TIER 6	EoS Premier
	Bo'ness Utd
	Broxburn Athletic
	Camelon Juniors
	Crossgates Primrose
	Dunbar Utd
	Dundonald Bluebell
	Hill of Beath
	Jeanfield Swifts
	Leith Athletic
	Musselburgh Athletic
	Newtongrange Star
	Penicuik Athletic
	Preston Athletic
	Sauchie
	Tranent Juniors
	Whitehill Welfare
EoS Champ North	TIER 7	EoS Champ South
Glenrothes		Armadale Thistle
Kennoway Hearts		Bathgate Thistle
Oakley Utd		Blackburn Utd
Rosyth		Fauldhouse Utd
St.Andrews Utd		Livingston Utd
Tayport		Pumpherston
Thornton Hibs		Whitburn
Broughty Ath		Arniston Rangers
Carnoustie Panmure		Dalkeith Thistle
Downfield		Easthouses Lily
Dundee NE		Haddington Athletic
Forfar WE		Edinburgh Utd
Kirriemuir		Heriot Watt
Lochee Utd		Lothian Thistle HV
Luncarty		Coldstream
Scone Thistle		Peebles Rovers
EoS League 1 North	TIER 8	EoS League 1 South
Inverkeithing HS		Harthill Royal
Kirkcaldy YM		Stoneyburn
Lochgelly Albert		West Calder Utd
Lochore Welfare		Ormiston
Newburgh		Craigroyston
Arbroath Vics		Tynecastle
Blairgowrie		Burntisland Shipyard
Brechin vics		Dunipace
Coupar Angus		Stirling Uni EoS
Dundee Violet		Eyemouth Utd
East Craigie		Hawick RA
Forfar Albion		Tweedmouth Rangers
Kinnoull		Sygenta (Grangemouth)
Lochee Harp

Edited February 20, 2019 by Burnie_man

[gaz5]

might get shot down here but say the LL line was moved to incorporate the Tayside clubs, would the following set up be the end of the world with the winners of the 2 top leagues playing off for LL ?. The problem you have is who would administer these leagues. EOS or  ERJFA??. everyone in the pyramid and able to obtain licences. ( teams have been put in leagues as illustration purposes only)
PREM NORTH-   HOB,Dundonald,Crossgates,Jeanfield,St Andrews,Oakley,Broughty,Lochee, Thornton,Forfar WE, Tayport,Carnoustie, Kirrie,
DIV 1 NORTH-  Downfield,Glenrothes,Burntisland,Hillfield,Scone,Dundee NE, Luncarty,Kinnoull,East Craigie,Blairgowrie, Dundee Violet,  Lochee Harp
DIV 2 NORTH-   Brechin Vics, Arbroath Vics, Forfar Albion,C.Angus,Lochore,Rosyth,Kirkcaldy,Newburgh,Lochgelly.  ( invite 3 or more new applicants)
PREM SOUTH-  Penicuik,Musselburgh,Newtongrange,Dunbar,Bonyrigg,Boness,Tranent,Dalkeith,Broxburn,Linlithgow,Camelon,Preston,Whitburn,Fauldhouse,
DIV 1 SOUTH-  Leith,Easthouses,Coldstream,Arniston,Sauchie,LTHV,Haddington,Tynecastle,HWU,Blackburn,Stirling Uni, Pumpherston,Armadale,Livingston
DIV 2 SOUTH-  Peebles,Hawick,Tweedmouth,Dunipace,Eyemouth,Craigroyston,Edin Utd,Ormiston,Bathgate,Harthill,W.Calder,Stoneyburn ( any new applicants)
 
6 competitive leagues.

No.

You are relegating some clubs 2 divisions there, moving the goalposts after the season has started.

Complete non starter just to go right to that structure.

The structure itself, which is something similar to what Burnie suggested a while back, is fine as a proposal. But you need interim stages to get the teams where they deserve there, like the EoS have done this season, you can't just go straight to it or it unjustly impacts on a number of clubs.

Some get to come in at the same level they are at now but others, mainly current EoS clubs who you cos argue have been at the forefront of driving change in the game, get bumped down 2 league's instead of the 1 they expected at the start of the season.

That would be a worse shafting to those clubs who had the vision to try to move themselves forward than Colts teams in a shitty SPFL3. [emoji846]