Pyramid 2019/2020

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, The Mantis said:

 

Have to agree with Rab, he’s over 70 but mentally he’s sharp as a tack. That example you gave is a bit puzzling admittedly. 

For me it was a language issue

Quote

AR mentioned that the contentious matter was Tayside. That would be where the East clubs would have an objection. JG clarified that rather than Tayside, another East league would be the issue. There were already East leagues and there could be no room for another one. AR said that the Pyramid must be extended to north of the Tay and the West as there was a gap there.

AR using Tayside to represent all of the East Region because of the mix of North & South of Tay teams which is the issue.

JG corrects to saying the issue is just having overlapping East Leagues.

AR changes to say a North of Tay should be created.

[Black & Red Socks]

As I think has already been mentioned, the long and the short of it is - regardless of who took issue with what and when - the most recent minutes make abundantly clear the EoSFL’s quite sensible opposition to a geographically overlapping league in the Pyramid. This is an opposition that is fair, clear and should be maintained.

Changes to the game - ie the addition of new leagues ( the Juniors) - are as important as they are desirable, but these changes should not be made simply for expediencies sake or, worse still, for the sake of the continuation of a body with no realistic or necessary place in the future of the game. Why create a portion of the Pyramid in the east that, geographically, mirrors that which is already there? Why? I’m at a loss to be able to answer this question, other than it suits Ian Maxwell to keep Tom Johnston onside and reveals the man as another in a long list of those who care not a jot about doing the right thing, only the easy thing.

The EoSFL’s reps have been wrongly criticised in this thread when I believe that they have been both consistent and correct - Tom Johnston and the SJFA quite simply shouldn’t be represented at a meeting (the PWG) dedicated to discussing the interaction of leagues in the current and projected Pyramid, only the ERSJFA, the NRSJFA and the WRSJFA should. They are all represented by this one man simply for the preservation of this one mans job.

Sadly, there’s probably no coincidence that Ian Maxwell and Tom Johnston each have an office not so very far separated along a reasonably short corridor at our National Stadium. Everyone else represented at the PWG have no such office. Go figure what’s being said during the coffee breaks at Hampden Park.

[Ginaro]

Just catching up with the last 8 pages...

The thing that jumps out at me from these minutes is short-termism. Basically the SJFA will do the discipline and make money off fines, the LL play-off rules will be amended, and at the end of 2019/20 there will be a nice four-way play-off at tier 6. Juniors in the pyramid - job done, happy days for TJ and IM...

There doesn't seem to be a plan for junior/senior integration, and the PWG solution just throws up more problems regarding two east leagues, the tier 5 dividing line and of course the North Juniors. At least the discussion back in 2013 acknowledged having three or four feeder leagues to the LL would be cumbersome and things should be merged.

Where do the East Juniors see themselves in say 5-10 years time? Still with fewer clubs as a competitor to the EOS, or having somehow attracted all the EOS clubs back? Is there an end game for TJ and the SJFA (that isn't just self-preservation)?

The big unknown is the number of clubs the EOS will have in their league come 1st April. You wonder how many will be needed to sway TJ and IM into even considering an east merger.

Quote

IM stated that he felt that there was nothing that could be considered a “show-stopper” and felt the process could be fairly straightforward.

Well let's hope the LL/EOS reps make him fully aware of the problem of having two leagues in the east, and also with north of Tay clubs joining the LL.

[John S]

It wasn't a full season fixture list but getting one to the end of March at the beginning of the season was great.

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

The big unknown is the number of clubs the EOS will have in their league come 1st April. You wonder how many will be needed to sway TJ and IM into even considering an east merger.

This is one of the points that should be driven home at these PWG meetings.  To have two competitor leagues covering the same area trying to attract clubs to move from one to the other, or competing for new clubs is absolutely insane. That isn't a Pyramid, that's just a mess.

How the CEO of the SFA cannot comprehend this beggars belief.

[GNU_Linux]

Regarding new EOS members is there any rumours pertaining to numbers that have applied? The Preston manager in his radio piece never gave numbers just that clubs had enquired/applied. Numbers ofc could change depending on ERJFA restructuring.

[12 Angry Men]

let's hope the LL/EOS reps make him fully aware of the problem of having two leagues in the east, and also with north of Tay clubs joining the LL.

This. This all the way. The Lowland League rep(s) really should be backing up the EoSFL in this regard. They must see the absolute folly of two equivalent leagues in the east and if they sit on their hands on this and, in so doing, help let it come to pass then shame on them. Shame on them.

I’m lead to believe that the Civil Service Strollers rep was ‘seconded’ onto the EoSFL board during the period when many ERSJFA clubs moved to the EoSFL - he wasn’t seconded solely for that reason but I nonetheless understand he was a functional part of the board that welcomed these east Junior clubs into the Senior game - and was active in helping many of them make the decision to do so, forcefully supportive of the EoSFL’s position of absolute opposition to any future participation of ERSJFA teams in the Pyramid. Why would his - and, ergo, the Lowland League’s position on this now be any different? I would hope he wasn’t being disingenuous.

I’m told he is an active member of this group - perhaps he can clarify his and the Lowland Leagues position?

[Cameron Wilson]

The leaked minutes are very interesting and worthy of a good look. I would just be wary of drawing too many conclusions from them as they are only one part of the picture. It's clear a lot is being said in back channels regardless of how accurate the minutes are.

It looks like everyone on this thread knows more about the specifics and problems of expanding the pyramid than Ian Maxwell does. He appears to simply want the juniors in the pyramid and be able to tick this box and then focus on what he deems to be higher priorities. He seems not interested in the details even if it means strange and bizarre ideas like two separate regional leagues covering the same region. To absolutely no-one's surprise,  this lack of concern for the base of the Scottish pyramid is just another reflection of the overall lack of vision and leadership in the SFA as a whole. 

It must be remembered the EoS risked going out of existence for the benefit of Scottish football by haemorrhaging all their best clubs to create the LL. Their objections to the East Juniors joining at tier 6 are perfectly reasonable. The onus is on the juniors to find a way to obey the wish of the majority of their members to join the pyramid. 

That said, right now the following possible general outcomes, in descending order of probability, appear to be:

1. The PWG makes no headway. More east juniors defect to the EoS, leaving an even more fractured rump of mainly smaller clubs spread out over Fife, WL and Tayside and more problems for them down the line. The rest of the junior regions remain outside the pyramid. Clydebank join EoS. A possible WoS league enters the picture again as ambitious west junior clubs grow impatient.

2. East juniors split into north and south. The south league joins pyramid at tier 7 underneath EoS premier for one last season of conferences, or possibly underneath EoS lower divisions at tier 8. North form a Tayside league, possibly merging in some way with north juniors. The juniors then move over as a block into the pyramid. Exact details of north junior pyramid participation and HL involvement to be solved later, most likely postponed for years.

3. West juniors enter the pyramid for next season, but the north and east don't - the juniors find a way to solve any internal issues caused by some regions being in the pyramid and others not.  As a result fewer east juniors defect to EoS thinking that if the west is already in, the east will follow at some point, and the east juniors restructure to keep members content for now.

4. EoS and East Juniors find a way to merge, possibly involving the HL/LL boundary line being adjusted. This allows everything else to be more or less solved amicably after that over a transitional season or two.

5. The SFA somehow railroads the east juniors into the pyramid at tier 6. What happens after that is anyone's guess, with litigation as @Robert James suggests a very possible consequence, but its also possible that all parties involved reluctantly accept that absurdity is an inescapable fact of Scottish football life, and find a way to muddle through it for the foreseeable future.

I imagine some posters will think option 5 should be placed higher up the list....call me naive but I have faith in the power of common sense even in Scottish football.

There's all manner of variations on the above, but those look to be the main possibilities at this stage. The north seems to be one of the main variables at present. It's unclear how much desire there is up there for them to join the pyramid. If they do - what is the HLs attitude to this? If not, what needs to happen for the rest of the juniors to join whilst leaving the north on the outside? Does the NCL want to be fully incorporated into the pyramid? If not, would their attitude change if the north juniors do get in?

Still so many questions yet to be answered.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Cameron Wilson
careless typo

[Auld Heid]

2 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

The leaked minutes are very interesting and worthy of a good look. I would just be wary of drawing too many conclusions from them as they are only one part of the picture. It's clear a lot is being said in back channels regardless of how accurate the minutes are.

It looks like everyone on this thread knows more about the specifics and problems of expanding the pyramid than Ian Maxwell does. He appears to simply want the juniors in the pyramid and be able to tick this box and then focus on what he deems to be higher priorities. He seems not interested in the details even if it means strange and bizarre ideas like two separate regional leagues covering the same region. To absolutely no-one's surprise,  this lack of concern for the base of the Scottish pyramid is just another reflection of the overall lack of vision and leadership in the SFA as a whole. 

It must be remembered the EoS risked going out of existence for the benefit of Scottish football by haemorrhaging all their best clubs to create the LL. Their objections to the East Juniors joining at tier 6 are perfectly reasonable. The onus is on the juniors to find a way to obey the wish of the majority of their members to join the pyramid. 

That said, right now the following possible general outcomes, in descending order of probability, appear to be:

1. The PWG makes no headway. More east juniors defect to the EoS, leaving an even more fractured rump of mainly smaller clubs spread out over Fife, WL and Tayside and more problems for them down the line. The rest of the junior regions remain outside the pyramid. Clydebank join EoS. A possible WoS league enters the picture again as ambitious west junior clubs grow impatient.

2. East juniors split into north and south. The south league joins pyramid at tier 7 underneath EoS premier for one last season of conferences, or possibly underneath EoS lower divisions at tier 8. North form a Tayside league, possibly merging in some way with north juniors. The juniors then move over as a block into the pyramid. Exact details of north junior pyramid participation and HL involvement to be solved later, most likely postponed for years.

3. West juniors enter the pyramid for next season, but the north and east don't - the juniors find a way to solve any internal issues caused by some regions being in the pyramid and others not.  As a result fewer east juniors defect to EoS thinking that if the west is already in, the east will follow at some point, and the east juniors restructure to keep members content for now.

4. EoS and East Juniors find a way to merge, possibly involving the HL/LL boundary line being adjusted. This allows everything else to be more or less solved amicably after that over a transitional season or two.

5. The SFA somehow railroads the east juniors into the pyramid at tier 6. What happens after that is anyone's guess, with litigation as @Robert James suggests a very possible consequence, but its also possible that all parties involved reluctantly accept that absurdity is an inescapable fact of Scottish football life, and find a way to muddle through it for the foreseeable future.

I imagine some posters will think option 5 should be placed higher up the list....call me naive but I have faith in the power of common sense even in Scottish football.

There's all manner of variations on the above, but those look to be the main possibilities at this stage. The north seems to be one of the main variables at present. It's unclear how much desire there is up there for them to join the pyramid. If they do - what is the HLs attitude to this? If not, what needs to happen for the rest of the juniors to join whilst leaving the north on the outside? Does the NCL want to be fully incorporated into the pyramid? If not, would their attitude change if the north juniors do get in?

Still so many questions yet to be answered.

There is a 6th point - which is real (not everybody is as well informed as the posters on here) That people lose interest due to the lack of progress and clarity.

[Kilbowie Benches]

No club or association in membership of the SFA can take legal action against it.

[Salvo Montalbano]

The minutes are just bizarre and look like the kind of amateurish ones you get in the public sector where nobody has worked in an industry where meetings actually decide things or have a list of objectives with timeframes etc. at the end. The bit that's simply beyond comprehension is when it's stated that the Junior discipline procedure has been brought into line with the Senior one. Except is hasn't, there are different rules for one body than the other. The fact that the SFA don't seem to see that there is 1) a contradiction and 2) a massive conflict of interest given that the fines are essentially helping pay for the office bearers' wages really paints the SFA in a bad light. At best it's a throwback to the old "blazers" days where stuffy old men in dark rooms decided things by committee behind closed doors but really it's a sign of incompetence, arrogance and bloody mindedness.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

No club or association in membership of the SFA can take legal action against it.

Appreciate that the sfa may have a rule saying that however that’s not legal. Every organisation has to stand up to legal scrutiny. An individual not formally connected to a club could take action.

[Kilbowie Benches]

1 minute ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Appreciate that the sfa may have a rule saying that however that’s not legal. Every organisation has to stand up to legal scrutiny. An individual not formally connected to a club could take action.

They’d need to have deep pockets!

[superbigal]

Time to print the 3 Key documents in order together to make life easier.  Credit to Burnieman for Jan & LocheeBoy for email.

Minutes of Meeting

Sub Group of the Pyramid Working Group 

Wednesday 14 November 2018

Attendance: Ian Maxwell (CE, Scottish Fa) - IM,  Laura Dougan (Head of football Governance Scottish FA) -  LD,  Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Dept Scottish FA)-SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Dept Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary Scottish FA)-VM, Iain McQueen (Asst Secretary/Treasurer SJFA)-IMcQ, Tom Johnston (Secretary SJFA)-TJ, George Fraser (Chairman SLFL)-GF,  Andrew Renwick (Vice-President EOSFA)-AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary EOSFA)-JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary  Southern Counties FA)-RO.

IM welcoming everyone to the first sub-group meeting of the Pyramid Working Group. He confirmed that the Pyramid Working Group had previously discussed the structure and agreed the implementation of the proposed changes for 2019/20.

A disciplinary process comparison report, compiled by VM, was circulated to members.

IM confirmed East, South and Lowland Leagues have fairly similar discipline procedures and fall under the jurusdiction of the Judicial  Panel Protocol. SJFA football is different.

TJ confirmed that he had already looked through the disciplinary comparison document and had no problem with implementing changes within the SJFA to bring its disciplinary systems into line with the Scottish FA's disciplinary systems. He felt that it would benefit the clubs to make these changes and that SJFA clubs would comply with any changes the SJFA made in this respect.

IM asked TJ & IMcQ if they would still impose fines on players, as well as a suspension. TJ stated that they would still impose fines because it does not impact on the incurring or serving of player suspensions.

JG stated that the whole system requires harmonisation not just the discipline.

AR suggested that discipline for all leagues should be the same and, due to this, felt that fines for SJFA players should no longer apply. TJ & IMcQ explained that the fines are used to generate income for the SJFA and its regions. TJ advised that the SJFA administers its own player discipline and suspensions, mainly through volounteers, and the money generated by disciplinary fines was an essential part of these processes.

LD confirmed that the Scottish FA would not deal with the discipline for the SJFA leagues. The administration  of the discipline for these clubs would only fall under the responsibility of the Scottish FA when the clubs concerned compete in the Lower Pyramid Play Off matches.

GF asked if a suspension list would be produced for the SJFA clubs. TJ confirmed that there is already a suspension list on the SJFA website every week and that practice would continue.

RO asked if the Scottish FA would deal with the claims process for SJFA clubs, or if the compliance Officer would cite the SJFA team staff if they should be sent off, in the same way as senior clubs. It was confirmed that the Scottish FA would not deal with the claims process for SJFA clubs and the compliance officer would not issue notices of complaint to the SJFA team staff.  Such matters will continue to be dealt with by the SJFA in accordance with its disciplinary sytems and processes.

RO suggested that the best way to deal with this issue is to produce a set of Lower Pyramid Play Off Rules. This was agreed and GF advised that he would progress this. It was acknowledged that the rules would require to provide for all possible routes to potential promotion/relegation.

A registration comparison document, compiled by SB, was circulated to the members. There was a general discussion regarding registration deadlines and the difference between the leagues and the different deadline dates.

LD proposed that the Lower Pyramid Play Off Rules should detail the registration requirements for all clubs participating in the Play Off competition.

AR confirmed that the Lower Pyramid Play Off competition is run by the Scottish Lowland Football League (SLFL) and they would construct the set of rules.

There was a general discussion regarding club licensing for SJFA clubs, as only clubs who have a club license and gain full Scottish FA membership are eligible to compete in the Lower Pyramid Play Off competition.

TJ said that the requirement for a club license might focus the attention of some SJFA clubs. However he pointed out that there would be some clubs who would never be interested in promotion. A club may never be in a position to gain a Club License.

GF confirmed that the SLFL will create a set of revised Lower Pyramid Play Off Rules and put a proposal out to all concerned.

RO suggested that those that deal with the fixture scheduling from each league/association and the SJFA should meet prior to the beginning of the season and come up with a calendar suitable to all.

There was discussion about the date of the last league match for each league. TJ confirmed that the SJFA leagues finish on the third Saturday in June each year. However, he did advise that the SJFA will be reducing the number of their competitions and bringing the end of season for the leagues forward, so they finish earlier. This is a process that has already started. IMcQ said that local cup competitions cause problems and the SJFA had looked at trimming these and making league games a priority.

There was further discussion regarding registration deadlines for signing players and possibility of signing recreational players. RO asked if a date for registration could be written into Play Off Rules. Along the lines off "only players signed before 31 March will be eligible to play in the Play OFF Competition". SB agreed that he would approach the IT department and produce figures on the number of players signed after that date in the SHFL and SLFL.

TJ confirmed that the SJFA would amend their sanctions/suspensions to mirror the Scottish FA. TJ confirmed he would liaise with LD and VM regarding the disciplinary procedures. LD confirmed that unintended consequences would also be looked at.

There was a suggestion of a trial year but it was felt it would only be delaying the change. IM suggested it would be a trial year anyway, as it is unlikely that a club would be in a position to go up , due to not having a club license.

It was agreed the group would meet again in early January 2019.

 

 

 

Minutes of Meeting
Sub-Group of Pyramid Working Group
Wednesday 9 January 2019
Attendance: Ian Maxwell (Chief Executive, Scottish FA) - IM, Laura Dougan (Head of Football Governance, Scottish FA) - LD, Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Department, Scottish FA) - SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Department Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary, Scottish FA) - VM, Tom Johnston (Secretary, Scottish Junior FA) - TJ, George Fraser (Chairman, Scottish Lowland Football League) - GF, Andrew Renwick (Vice-President, East of Scotland FA) - AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary, East of Scotland FA) - JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary, Southern Counties FA) - RO.
IM stated that the draft Minutes were now available from the meeting on 14 November 2018 and they would be circulated to all members after the meeting.
AR complained that the Minutes were not available before now and that there seemed to be a reluctance to produce and distribute Minutes. IM explained that they were late due to workload.
LD confirmed that TJ had amended the SJFA Disciplinary Procedures to bring them into line with the Scottish FA’s Disciplinary Procedures. The only difference was that the SJFA would continue to issue fines. The Claims Process would also mirror the Scottish FA’s process and requires clubs to produce video evidence. LD mentioned that the SJFA process for Team Staff discipline was more severe than the Scottish FA. LD stated that she was more than happy with the progress made by SJFA and would continue to work with TJ where required.
AR and JG declared their disappointment that SJFA club discipline would not be dealt with by Scottish FA. LD stated that this was not possible due to resource and that SJFA leagues would continue to administer their own discipline.
RO explained that each organisation has its own rules. The Play Off Rules will cover all organisations.
LD further explained that when all clubs, who qualify, go into the Play Off competition, they will be governed by the same set of Play Off Rules. There will be uniformity.
IM reiterated that when clubs enter the Play Off competition, they will all abide by the rules in place for that competition.
TJ confirmed that he had already written to the SLFL to say that the SJFA would agree to the Play Off Rules. He stated that the objective must be to protect the integrity of the Play Off Competition.
AR asked TJ how the SJFA leagues were run. TJ stated that the leagues dealt with their own administration. AR asked why the SJFA leagues were not represented at this meeting. TJ confirmed that he was the representative.
AR asked if the accumulation of cautions procedure for SJFA clubs would be the same as Scottish FA. LD confirmed that this would be the case.
IM asked GF to confirm the position with the draft Play Off Rules. GF stated that he would have to get a formal proposal from the working group to proceed. He confirmed that the Play Off Rules need agreement from the East, South, SLFL and the Scottish FA.
RO mentioned that this had not been the case in the past. GF confirmed that all parties must agree to the Play Off Rules. IM stated that if there was an agreement at this working group, then that would be all parties in agreement. JG stated that could not be the case as he would have to run the information past the EOS FA Board first.
There was a brief discussion on the agreement and whether majority agreement would suffice or if all parties had to agree. 
LD asked all parties present if they felt there was anything at the moment that would mean they could not agree to the proposal. She acknowledged that there were a few hurdles to get over but asked all parties if they felt there would be formal opposition.
JG mentioned that the SHFL were not represented at the working group. This was followed by a general discussion regarding the demarcation line and the geographical issues regarding that and how some teams would potentially have to travel large distances.
AR stated that it looked like the East were objecting to everything, but insisted that this was not the case. He felt there were grey areas and his Board may have objections relating to in particular discipline.
RO asked why, if there was a general desire for this to work, could the working group not focus on developing the rules and making it happen, rather than trying to find fault. JG said it was the job of the working group to make it happen.
AR said that he expected the new leagues to be represented at the NPGB. LD confirmed that they were already represented by TJ. AR also asked about the obligation on SJFA clubs to comply with audit regulations. TJ confirmed clubs require to do this at the moment. GF asked TJ if there was any feedback from SJFA clubs on the floodlight issue. TJ stated there was none at all. He said that the SJFA clubs have always known they would need floodlights to progress.
IM stated that he felt that there was nothing that could be considered a “show-stopper” and felt the process could be fairly straightforward. He stated that if there was a vote – for the wrong reasons – to stall the process, the Scottish FA Board would consider such action.
GF confirmed that there was a SLFL Board meeting on 17 January and a general meeting on 7 February. The East confirmed that they had a meeting soon and RO confirmed that the South had a meeting scheduled for end of February. All parties agreed to keep their clubs up to date.
IM agreed that he would produce a proposal, along with LD, to allow the SLFL to progress the Play Off Rules, as required by GF.
AR mentioned that the contentious matter was Tayside. That would be where the East clubs would have an objection. JG clarified that rather than Tayside, another East league would be the issue. There were already East leagues and there could be no room for another one. AR said that the Pyramid must be extended to north of the Tay and the West as there was a gap there.
TJ said that the SJFA has Tayside and West Lothian clubs and he would not be willing to tell them that they had to join the EOS FA to progress. TJ said that the matter had already been agreed by the Scottish FA Board and that AR and JG were going over old ground. The decision has been made at Scottish FA Board level and it has to be agreed how it will work. It cannot be changed or challenged at this stage.
IM suggested that the appetite from clubs for the Pyramid could change over time. Clubs who are not interested at the moment could be interested in the future. It was the purpose of this working group to make the Pyramid work.
AR declared that there would be objections from the East. IM asked if the fundamental objection was the geography issue. There was a general discussion regarding the 25 clubs leaving the SJFA at the end of Season 2017/2018 and joining the East of Scotland and who was responsible for that. IM stated that consultation was not a one way street and that communication from EOS FA surrounding the process could have been better.
LD asked parties to be upfront with their concerns so that the process would not be delayed. She asked for any problems to be dealt with now and not further down the line.
JG asked SB about a proposal he made for a change in the Scottish FA’s Articles. SB confirmed that the proposal had been received and would follow the normal Rules Revision process as Articles could not be changed during the course of the season.
TJ asked IM to alert the Scottish FA Board to the direction of travel as he felt, due to the concerns raised at this meeting, that there could be an issue with the working group being able to comply with a Board directive

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

The minutes are just bizarre and look like the kind of amateurish ones you get in the public sector where nobody has worked in an industry where meetings actually decide things or have a list of objectives with timeframes etc. at the end. The bit that's simply beyond comprehension is when it's stated that the Junior discipline procedure has been brought into line with the Senior one. Except is hasn't, there are different rules for one body than the other. The fact that the SFA don't seem to see that there is 1) a contradiction and 2) a massive conflict of interest given that the fines are essentially helping pay for the office bearers' wages really paints the SFA in a bad light. At best it's a throwback to the old "blazers" days where stuffy old men in dark rooms decided things by committee behind closed doors but really it's a sign of incompetence, arrogance and bloody mindedness.

That is exactly what it is, levying fines in order to pay salaries and expenses. They admit it in the minutes.

The Secretary of the ERJFA is paid well into four figures for his services, at least it was when I sat at these meeting and voted on their pay increases (£6k+ from memory) and I believe that WRJFA position is paid even more. The Secretary of the SJFA is well over £30k.  Then there is the “honorary” payments to the other blazers.  The SJFA have (or had) well over £400k in the bank, they also have an office at Hampden to pay for.

I don’t know how much the (joint) Secty of the EoS and LL is paid, from what I’m told it is negligible, and probably the same for the fixtures guru who also compiles them for both leagues. They don't need full-time staff nor Hampden offices and they are run much better than the Juniors.

There is no equality in the discipline system as long as it is in the best interests of the Junior organisations to levy their own fines against players.  Involving the SJFA in the Pyramid is a farce, even more so by allowing them to keep their own rules, yet the SFA/IM seem keen to facilitate this.

[Kilbowie Benches]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

That is exactly what it is, levying fines in order to pay salaries and expenses. They admit it in the minutes.

The Secretary of the ERJFA is paid well into four figures for his services, at least it was when I sat at these meeting and voted on their pay increases (£6k+ from memory) and I believe that WRJFA position is paid even more. The Secretary of the SJFA is well over £30k.  Then there is the “honorary” payments to the other blazers.  The SJFA have (or had) well over £400k in the bank, they also have an office at Hampden to pay for.

I don’t know how much the (joint) Secty of the EoS and LL is paid, from what I’m told it is negligible, and probably the same for the fixtures guru who also compiles them for both leagues. They don't need full-time staff nor Hampden offices and they are run much better than the Juniors.

There is no equality in the discipline system as long as it is in the best interests of the Junior organisations to levy their own fines against players.  Involving the SJFA in the Pyramid is a farce, even more so by allowing them to keep their own rules, yet the SFA/IM seem keen to facilitate this.

It tells you in the minutes that the SFA don’t have the staff to administer the discipline for the extra clubs.

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

It tells you in the minutes that the SFA don’t have the staff to administer the discipline for the extra clubs.

Perhaps as the governing body they recruit more staff then, it's their Pyramid.

[falkirktv]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Perhaps as the governing body they recruit more staff then, it's their Pyramid.

would agree, surely the fines would pay for the increased staff.

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

The leaked minutes are very interesting and worthy of a good look. I would just be wary of drawing too many conclusions from them as they are only one part of the picture. It's clear a lot is being said in back channels regardless of how accurate the minutes are.

It looks like everyone on this thread knows more about the specifics and problems of expanding the pyramid than Ian Maxwell does. He appears to simply want the juniors in the pyramid and be able to tick this box and then focus on what he deems to be higher priorities. He seems not interested in the details even if it means strange and bizarre ideas like two separate regional leagues covering the same region. To absolutely no-one's surprise,  this lack of concern for the base of the Scottish pyramid is just another reflection of the overall lack of vision and leadership in the SFA as a whole. 

It must be remembered the EoS risked going out of existence for the benefit of Scottish football by haemorrhaging all their best clubs to create the LL. Their objections to the East Juniors joining at tier 6 are perfectly reasonable. The onus is on the juniors to find a way to obey the wish of the majority of their members to join the pyramid. 

That said, right now the following possible general outcomes, in descending order of probability, appear to be:

1. The PWG makes no headway. More east juniors defect to the EoS, leaving an even more fractured rump of mainly smaller clubs spread out over Fife, WL and Tayside and more problems for them down the line. The rest of the junior regions remain outside the pyramid. Clydebank join EoS. A possible WoS league enters the picture again as ambitious west junior clubs grow impatient.

2. East juniors split into north and south. The south league joins pyramid at tier 7 underneath EoS premier for one last season of conferences, or possibly underneath EoS lower divisions at tier 8. North form a Tayside league, possibly merging in some way with north juniors. The juniors then move over as a block into the pyramid. Exact details of north junior pyramid participation and HL involvement to be solved later, most likely postponed for years.

3. West juniors enter the pyramid for next season, but the north and east don't - the juniors find a way to solve any internal issues caused by some regions being in the pyramid and others not.  As a result fewer east juniors defect to EoS thinking that if the west is already in, the east will follow at some point, and the east juniors restructure to keep members content for now.

4. EoS and East Juniors find a way to merge, possibly involving the HL/LL boundary line being adjusted. This allows everything else to be more or less solved amicably after that over a transitional season or two.

5. The SFA somehow railroads the east juniors into the pyramid at tier 6. What happens after that is anyone's guess, with litigation as @Robert James suggests a very possible consequence, but its also possible that all parties involved reluctantly accept that absurdity is an inescapable fact of Scottish football life, and find a way to muddle through it for the foreseeable future.

I imagine some posters will think option 5 should be placed higher up the list....call me naive but I have faith in the power of common sense even in Scottish football.

There's all manner of variations on the above, but those look to be the main possibilities at this stage. The north seems to be one of the main variables at present. It's unclear how much desire there is up there for them to join the pyramid. If they do - what is the HLs attitude to this? If not, what needs to happen for the rest of the juniors to join whilst leaving the north on the outside? Does the NCL want to be fully incorporated into the pyramid? If not, would their attitude change if the north juniors do get in?

Still so many questions yet to be answered.

An excellent post : perhaps you should send a copy to IM & Co ?

Regarding the NCL, it has been stated on P & B that at a meeting held last June, the clubs expressed an interest in joining the pyramid. If correct, the SFA needs to progress this in tandem with the North Juniors, as these two Associations represent distinctly different Scottish geographical areas. Also :

(1) the NCL is a "senior" league, which  is  broadly equivalent to the SoSL in terms of playing standards, and (in many cases) supporter levels 

(2) the NCL clubs should not be prevented from being afforded pyramid 'feeder' status, even if at present, only one of its clubs (Golspie) holds an SFA licence

(3) if the HFL embraces pyramid relegation in the future, clubs like Wick Academy, Brora Rangers, Fort William, and (probably) Clachnacuddin, would be unlikely to join a North/Tayside 'feeder' league, and would look to join the NCL (as FW would have done for this season, if they hadn't formed a new management committee)  

(4) some NCL clubs are known to be ambitious, and 2 clubs currently participate in the Highland Youth League. If there is to be a HFL pyramid, which includes the North Juniors, the NCL should also have a similar status for the reasons stated above.

Also, highland whisky is better in the north, especially on a cold winter's night.

 

[GNU_Linux]

Surely the staff shortage could be covered by the sjfa merging into the SFA & the employees of the sjfa transfer to becoming sfa employees.