Pyramid 2019/2020

[Burnie_man]

So the proposed rule change to save the 15th placed LL club is presumably rejected??  Also interesting to see the HL/LL line specifically highlighted, meaning no change to that either.

[Pyramidic]

With regard to some of the legal info that Burnie_Man and FairWeatherFan have kindly turned out on the two Pyramid threads do we have an issue that the EoSL/EoSFA could potentially take to the Court of Arbitration for Sport ("CAS") or International Council of Arbitration for Sport ("ICAS") if their postion is over-ruled by the SFA?

Are the rules / statutes that have been quoted legally binding in sports terms?

 

Sources: Court of Arbitration for Sport ("CAS")  / International Council of Arbitration for Sport ("ICAS")

https://www.tas-cas.org/en/general-information/frequently-asked-questions.html

https://www.tas-cas.org/en/icas/code-statutes-of-icas-and-cas.html

 

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

So the proposed rule change to save the 15th placed LL club is presumably rejected??  Also interesting to see the HL/LL line specifically highlighted, meaning no change to that either.

It's not clear. You need applications regardless in case of no licensed Tier 6 champion or if 2 teams are relegated. So it could be because of a need for applications or just to cover themselves if those scenarios happen.

[Kilbowie Benches]

6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's not clear. You need applications regardless in case of no licensed Tier 6 champion or if 2 teams are relegated. So it could be because of a need for applications or just to cover themselves if those scenarios happen.

Is anything ever clear in Scottish Football!  

[In TJ we trust]

13 hours ago, Baxter's Nutmeg said:

This is where the info is coming from then! It’s the PG Tips you are getting 

Aye they didn’t come in pyramid tea bags.

[In TJ we trust]

13 hours ago, locheeboy said:

Wow, I’m obviously touching a nerve. Now I’m not sure if you are McGinty or maybe you are his goat

Careful now there are people associated with his club who may get upset with you

[Burnie_man]

Ok here are the minutes as I was sent them.  I wasn't going to share them in full but give there are accusations of "lying" from certain quarters I think it's important to see the full transcript (I do not know who wrote these and the source isn't the EoS). It looks to me that what the EoS are reporting back to member clubs is entirely accurate, and that TJ is worried that there are disagreements in the discussions and wants the SFA Board to intervene presumably to force through change. I don't think they can, the PWG is not a constituted body, they follow no procedures and there is no time limit on their discussions.  The leagues represented have as much of a voice as the SFA, who to my eyes are there as an arbiter to facilitate agreement.

There appears to be disagreements on the SJFA running its own discipline, on the issue of the HL/LL line, and on the ERJFA entering at all. As was pointed out, Maxwell appears to be still moaning about the clubs who joined the EoS 6 months previously. He wants a quick fix but he's not getting one.  All these "done deal" claims appear to emanate from TJ's belief that because the SFA Board agreed to the SJFA joining the Pyramid back around August, that this means it's on their terms.  No mention either of NRJFA.

Make up your own mind if you think there will be full agreement and plans in place to deliver the Juniors into the Pyramid anytime soon.

 

Minutes of Meeting

Sub-Group of Pyramid Working Group

Wednesday 9 January 2019

Attendance: Ian Maxwell (Chief Executive, Scottish FA) - IM, Laura Dougan (Head of Football Governance, Scottish FA) - LD, Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Department, Scottish FA) - SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Department Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary, Scottish FA) - VM, Tom Johnston (Secretary, Scottish Junior FA) - TJ, George Fraser (Chairman, Scottish Lowland Football League) - GF, Andrew Renwick (Vice-President, East of Scotland FA) - AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary, East of Scotland FA) - JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary, Southern Counties FA) - RO.

IM stated that the draft Minutes were now available from the meeting on 14 November 2018 and they would be circulated to all members after the meeting.

AR complained that the Minutes were not available before now and that there seemed to be a reluctance to produce and distribute Minutes. IM explained that they were late due to workload.

LD confirmed that TJ had amended the SJFA Disciplinary Procedures to bring them into line with the Scottish FA’s Disciplinary Procedures. The only difference was that the SJFA would continue to issue fines. The Claims Process would also mirror the Scottish FA’s process and requires clubs to produce video evidence. LD mentioned that the SJFA process for Team Staff discipline was more severe than the Scottish FA. LD stated that she was more than happy with the progress made by SJFA and would continue to work with TJ where required.

AR and JG declared their disappointment that SJFA club discipline would not be dealt with by Scottish FA. LD stated that this was not possible due to resource and that SJFA leagues would continue to administer their own discipline.

RO explained that each organisation has its own rules. The Play Off Rules will cover all organisations.

LD further explained that when all clubs, who qualify, go into the Play Off competition, they will be governed by the same set of Play Off Rules. There will be uniformity.

IM reiterated that when clubs enter the Play Off competition, they will all abide by the rules in place for that competition.

TJ confirmed that he had already written to the SLFL to say that the SJFA would agree to the Play Off Rules. He stated that the objective must be to protect the integrity of the Play Off Competition.

AR asked TJ how the SJFA leagues were run. TJ stated that the leagues dealt with their own administration. AR asked why the SJFA leagues were not represented at this meeting. TJ confirmed that he was the representative.

AR asked if the accumulation of cautions procedure for SJFA clubs would be the same as Scottish FA. LD confirmed that this would be the case.

IM asked GF to confirm the position with the draft Play Off Rules. GF stated that he would have to get a formal proposal from the working group to proceed. He confirmed that the Play Off Rules need agreement from the East, South, SLFL and the Scottish FA.

RO mentioned that this had not been the case in the past. GF confirmed that all parties must agree to the Play Off Rules. IM stated that if there was an agreement at this working group, then that would be all parties in agreement. JG stated that could not be the case as he would have to run the information past the EOS FA Board first.

There was a brief discussion on the agreement and whether majority agreement would suffice or if all parties had to agree. 

LD asked all parties present if they felt there was anything at the moment that would mean they could not agree to the proposal. She acknowledged that there were a few hurdles to get over but asked all parties if they felt there would be formal opposition.

JG mentioned that the SHFL were not represented at the working group. This was followed by a general discussion regarding the demarcation line and the geographical issues regarding that and how some teams would potentially have to travel large distances.

AR stated that it looked like the East were objecting to everything, but insisted that this was not the case. He felt there were grey areas and his Board may have objections relating to in particular discipline.

RO asked why, if there was a general desire for this to work, could the working group not focus on developing the rules and making it happen, rather than trying to find fault. JG said it was the job of the working group to make it happen.

AR said that he expected the new leagues to be represented at the NPGB. LD confirmed that they were already represented by TJ. AR also asked about the obligation on SJFA clubs to comply with audit regulations. TJ confirmed clubs require to do this at the moment. GF asked TJ if there was any feedback from SJFA clubs on the floodlight issue. TJ stated there was none at all. He said that the SJFA clubs have always known they would need floodlights to progress.

IM stated that he felt that there was nothing that could be considered a “show-stopper” and felt the process could be fairly straightforward. He stated that if there was a vote – for the wrong reasons – to stall the process, the Scottish FA Board would consider such action.

GF confirmed that there was a SLFL Board meeting on 17 January and a general meeting on 7 February. The East confirmed that they had a meeting soon and RO confirmed that the South had a meeting scheduled for end of February. All parties agreed to keep their clubs up to date.

IM agreed that he would produce a proposal, along with LD, to allow the SLFL to progress the Play Off Rules, as required by GF.

AR mentioned that the contentious matter was Tayside. That would be where the East clubs would have an objection. JG clarified that rather than Tayside, another East league would be the issue. There were already East leagues and there could be no room for another one. AR said that the Pyramid must be extended to north of the Tay and the West as there was a gap there.

TJ said that the SJFA has Tayside and West Lothian clubs and he would not be willing to tell them that they had to join the EOS FA to progress. TJ said that the matter had already been agreed by the Scottish FA Board and that AR and JG were going over old ground. The decision has been made at Scottish FA Board level and it has to be agreed how it will work. It cannot be changed or challenged at this stage.

IM suggested that the appetite from clubs for the Pyramid could change over time. Clubs who are not interested at the moment could be interested in the future. It was the purpose of this working group to make the Pyramid work.

AR declared that there would be objections from the East. IM asked if the fundamental objection was the geography issue. There was a general discussion regarding the 25 clubs leaving the SJFA at the end of Season 2017/2018 and joining the East of Scotland and who was responsible for that. IM stated that consultation was not a one way street and that communication from EOS FA surrounding the process could have been better.

LD asked parties to be upfront with their concerns so that the process would not be delayed. She asked for any problems to be dealt with now and not further down the line.

JG asked SB about a proposal he made for a change in the Scottish FA’s Articles. SB confirmed that the proposal had been received and would follow the normal Rules Revision process as Articles could not be changed during the course of the season.

TJ asked IM to alert the Scottish FA Board to the direction of travel as he felt, due to the concerns raised at this meeting, that there could be an issue with the working group being able to comply with a Board directive.

[AlanCamelonfan]

21 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Ok here are the minutes as I was sent them.  I wasn't going to share them in full but give there are accusations of "lying" from certain quarters I think it's important to see the full transcript (I do not know who wrote these and the source isn't the EoS). It looks to me that what the EoS are reporting back to member clubs is entirely accurate, and that TJ is worried that there are disagreements in the discussions and wants the SFA Board to intervene presumably to force through change. I don't think they can, the PWG is not a constituted body, they follow no procedures and there is no time limit on their discussions.  The leagues represented have as much of a voice as the SFA, who to my eyes are there as an arbiter to facilitate agreement.

There appears to be disagreements on the SJFA running its own discipline, on the issue of the HL/LL line, and on the ERJFA entering at all. As was pointed out, Maxwell appears to be still moaning about the clubs who joined the EoS 6 months previously. He wants a quick fix but he's not getting one.  All these "done deal" claims appear to emanate from TJ's belief that because the SFA Board agreed to the SJFA joining the Pyramid back around August, that this means it's on their terms.  No mention either of NRJFA.

Make up your own mind if you think there will be full agreement and plans in place to deliver the Juniors into the Pyramid anytime soon.

 

Minutes of Meeting

Sub-Group of Pyramid Working Group

Wednesday 9 January 2019

Attendance: Ian Maxwell (Chief Executive, Scottish FA) - IM, Laura Dougan (Head of Football Governance, Scottish FA) - LD, Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Department, Scottish FA) - SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Department Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary, Scottish FA) - VM, Tom Johnston (Secretary, Scottish Junior FA) - TJ, George Fraser (Chairman, Scottish Lowland Football League) - GF, Andrew Renwick (Vice-President, East of Scotland FA) - AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary, East of Scotland FA) - JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary, Southern Counties FA) - RO.

IM stated that the draft Minutes were now available from the meeting on 14 November 2018 and they would be circulated to all members after the meeting.

AR complained that the Minutes were not available before now and that there seemed to be a reluctance to produce and distribute Minutes. IM explained that they were late due to workload.

LD confirmed that TJ had amended the SJFA Disciplinary Procedures to bring them into line with the Scottish FA’s Disciplinary Procedures. The only difference was that the SJFA would continue to issue fines. The Claims Process would also mirror the Scottish FA’s process and requires clubs to produce video evidence. LD mentioned that the SJFA process for Team Staff discipline was more severe than the Scottish FA. LD stated that she was more than happy with the progress made by SJFA and would continue to work with TJ where required.

AR and JG declared their disappointment that SJFA club discipline would not be dealt with by Scottish FA. LD stated that this was not possible due to resource and that SJFA leagues would continue to administer their own discipline.

RO explained that each organisation has its own rules. The Play Off Rules will cover all organisations.

LD further explained that when all clubs, who qualify, go into the Play Off competition, they will be governed by the same set of Play Off Rules. There will be uniformity.

IM reiterated that when clubs enter the Play Off competition, they will all abide by the rules in place for that competition.

TJ confirmed that he had already written to the SLFL to say that the SJFA would agree to the Play Off Rules. He stated that the objective must be to protect the integrity of the Play Off Competition.

AR asked TJ how the SJFA leagues were run. TJ stated that the leagues dealt with their own administration. AR asked why the SJFA leagues were not represented at this meeting. TJ confirmed that he was the representative.

AR asked if the accumulation of cautions procedure for SJFA clubs would be the same as Scottish FA. LD confirmed that this would be the case.

IM asked GF to confirm the position with the draft Play Off Rules. GF stated that he would have to get a formal proposal from the working group to proceed. He confirmed that the Play Off Rules need agreement from the East, South, SLFL and the Scottish FA.

RO mentioned that this had not been the case in the past. GF confirmed that all parties must agree to the Play Off Rules. IM stated that if there was an agreement at this working group, then that would be all parties in agreement. JG stated that could not be the case as he would have to run the information past the EOS FA Board first.

There was a brief discussion on the agreement and whether majority agreement would suffice or if all parties had to agree. 

LD asked all parties present if they felt there was anything at the moment that would mean they could not agree to the proposal. She acknowledged that there were a few hurdles to get over but asked all parties if they felt there would be formal opposition.

JG mentioned that the SHFL were not represented at the working group. This was followed by a general discussion regarding the demarcation line and the geographical issues regarding that and how some teams would potentially have to travel large distances.

AR stated that it looked like the East were objecting to everything, but insisted that this was not the case. He felt there were grey areas and his Board may have objections relating to in particular discipline.

RO asked why, if there was a general desire for this to work, could the working group not focus on developing the rules and making it happen, rather than trying to find fault. JG said it was the job of the working group to make it happen.

AR said that he expected the new leagues to be represented at the NPGB. LD confirmed that they were already represented by TJ. AR also asked about the obligation on SJFA clubs to comply with audit regulations. TJ confirmed clubs require to do this at the moment. GF asked TJ if there was any feedback from SJFA clubs on the floodlight issue. TJ stated there was none at all. He said that the SJFA clubs have always known they would need floodlights to progress.

IM stated that he felt that there was nothing that could be considered a “show-stopper” and felt the process could be fairly straightforward. He stated that if there was a vote – for the wrong reasons – to stall the process, the Scottish FA Board would consider such action.

GF confirmed that there was a SLFL Board meeting on 17 January and a general meeting on 7 February. The East confirmed that they had a meeting soon and RO confirmed that the South had a meeting scheduled for end of February. All parties agreed to keep their clubs up to date.

IM agreed that he would produce a proposal, along with LD, to allow the SLFL to progress the Play Off Rules, as required by GF.

AR mentioned that the contentious matter was Tayside. That would be where the East clubs would have an objection. JG clarified that rather than Tayside, another East league would be the issue. There were already East leagues and there could be no room for another one. AR said that the Pyramid must be extended to north of the Tay and the West as there was a gap there.

TJ said that the SJFA has Tayside and West Lothian clubs and he would not be willing to tell them that they had to join the EOS FA to progress. TJ said that the matter had already been agreed by the Scottish FA Board and that AR and JG were going over old ground. The decision has been made at Scottish FA Board level and it has to be agreed how it will work. It cannot be changed or challenged at this stage.

IM suggested that the appetite from clubs for the Pyramid could change over time. Clubs who are not interested at the moment could be interested in the future. It was the purpose of this working group to make the Pyramid work.

AR declared that there would be objections from the East. IM asked if the fundamental objection was the geography issue. There was a general discussion regarding the 25 clubs leaving the SJFA at the end of Season 2017/2018 and joining the East of Scotland and who was responsible for that. IM stated that consultation was not a one way street and that communication from EOS FA surrounding the process could have been better.

LD asked parties to be upfront with their concerns so that the process would not be delayed. She asked for any problems to be dealt with now and not further down the line.

JG asked SB about a proposal he made for a change in the Scottish FA’s Articles. SB confirmed that the proposal had been received and would follow the normal Rules Revision process as Articles could not be changed during the course of the season.

TJ asked IM to alert the Scottish FA Board to the direction of travel as he felt, due to the concerns raised at this meeting, that there could be an issue with the working group being able to comply with a Board directive.

To be fair I can see from the minutes why people like Larry think they are in but that's because as you say maxwell wants an easy life. TJ wants to preserve his own association. Fair enough I don't think he can tell clubs to go but Tayside wouldn't get into eosfl. TJ though doesn't seem to want to compromise and it's making eosfl look like moaners but why should they just roll overy and accept a mess. 

By the looks of it won't be resolved for next season. 

 

Laughable that ld is saying get concerns out the way now. They raised them months ago. 

[Kilbowie Benches]

If I was an SFA board member and read those minutes would I be keen to give derogation to EoS clubs looking for a license without floodlights hmmm

[Bad Wolf]

40 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

IM stated that if there was an agreement at this working group, then that would be all parties in agreement.

Is IM a) an utterly clueless numptie, or b) TJ's bidie-in? He seems intent on sabotaging the entire process on the basis that an (correct me if I'm wrong) advisory working group affiliated to the parent body whose decisions are non-binding should be able to overturn properly and legally enacted decisions of constituent members of said parent body.  I know it's Scottish football, so nothing should be a surprise, but I'm flabbergasted nonetheless.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Bad Wolf

[AlanCamelonfan]

7 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

If I was an SFA board member and read those minutes would I be keen to give derogation to EoS clubs looking for a license without floodlights hmmm

Exactly what I said twist it to suit agendas instead of working towards a solution. Only ones who seem to want that is eosfl. Everyone wants a west league eosfl. 

Easiest solution would be just to drop wrsjfa in but since it comes with so much baggage it has to be wosfl and if none of them want to go then stay junior

[Gimme]

If I was an SFA board member and read those minutes would I be keen to give derogation to EoS clubs looking for a license without floodlights hmmm

There has to be a single rule for all though. Clubs submitted applications under the 2018 criteria and the goalposts moved afterwards. I'm reasonably sure the SFA didn't ask the clubs if they'd like their £2k fee refunded so the applications should be deemed as accepted under the rules in place at the time. Its not too dissimilar to the situation Linlithgow Rose were in when they applied (in that the SFA tried to change the rules mid process). 

Its in the hands of the SFA to grant any club a temporary reprieve on any aspect of licencing provided plans are in place to address. Refusing applicants a licence because they don't have floodlights while simultaneously allowing others to renew theirs despite the same shortcoming would surely leave them open to all manner of allegations, although that's nothing new for the SFA.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dev]

51 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Ok here are the minutes as I was sent them.  I wasn't going to share them in full but give there are accusations of "lying" from certain quarters I think it's important to see the full transcript (I do not know who wrote these and the source isn't the EoS). It looks to me that what the EoS are reporting back to member clubs is entirely accurate, and that TJ is worried that there are disagreements in the discussions and wants the SFA Board to intervene presumably to force through change. I don't think they can, the PWG is not a constituted body, they follow no procedures and there is no time limit on their discussions.  The leagues represented have as much of a voice as the SFA, who to my eyes are there as an arbiter to facilitate agreement.

There appears to be disagreements on the SJFA running its own discipline, on the issue of the HL/LL line, and on the ERJFA entering at all. As was pointed out, Maxwell appears to be still moaning about the clubs who joined the EoS 6 months previously. He wants a quick fix but he's not getting one.  All these "done deal" claims appear to emanate from TJ's belief that because the SFA Board agreed to the SJFA joining the Pyramid back around August, that this means it's on their terms.  No mention either of NRJFA.

Make up your own mind if you think there will be full agreement and plans in place to deliver the Juniors into the Pyramid anytime soon.

 

Minutes of Meeting

Sub-Group of Pyramid Working Group

Wednesday 9 January 2019

Attendance: Ian Maxwell (Chief Executive, Scottish FA) - IM, Laura Dougan (Head of Football Governance, Scottish FA) - LD, Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Department, Scottish FA) - SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Department Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary, Scottish FA) - VM, Tom Johnston (Secretary, Scottish Junior FA) - TJ, George Fraser (Chairman, Scottish Lowland Football League) - GF, Andrew Renwick (Vice-President, East of Scotland FA) - AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary, East of Scotland FA) - JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary, Southern Counties FA) - RO.

IM stated that the draft Minutes were now available from the meeting on 14 November 2018 and they would be circulated to all members after the meeting.

AR complained that the Minutes were not available before now and that there seemed to be a reluctance to produce and distribute Minutes. IM explained that they were late due to workload.

LD confirmed that TJ had amended the SJFA Disciplinary Procedures to bring them into line with the Scottish FA’s Disciplinary Procedures. The only difference was that the SJFA would continue to issue fines. The Claims Process would also mirror the Scottish FA’s process and requires clubs to produce video evidence. LD mentioned that the SJFA process for Team Staff discipline was more severe than the Scottish FA. LD stated that she was more than happy with the progress made by SJFA and would continue to work with TJ where required.

AR and JG declared their disappointment that SJFA club discipline would not be dealt with by Scottish FA. LD stated that this was not possible due to resource and that SJFA leagues would continue to administer their own discipline.

RO explained that each organisation has its own rules. The Play Off Rules will cover all organisations.

LD further explained that when all clubs, who qualify, go into the Play Off competition, they will be governed by the same set of Play Off Rules. There will be uniformity.

IM reiterated that when clubs enter the Play Off competition, they will all abide by the rules in place for that competition.

TJ confirmed that he had already written to the SLFL to say that the SJFA would agree to the Play Off Rules. He stated that the objective must be to protect the integrity of the Play Off Competition.

AR asked TJ how the SJFA leagues were run. TJ stated that the leagues dealt with their own administration. AR asked why the SJFA leagues were not represented at this meeting. TJ confirmed that he was the representative.

AR asked if the accumulation of cautions procedure for SJFA clubs would be the same as Scottish FA. LD confirmed that this would be the case.

IM asked GF to confirm the position with the draft Play Off Rules. GF stated that he would have to get a formal proposal from the working group to proceed. He confirmed that the Play Off Rules need agreement from the East, South, SLFL and the Scottish FA.

RO mentioned that this had not been the case in the past. GF confirmed that all parties must agree to the Play Off Rules. IM stated that if there was an agreement at this working group, then that would be all parties in agreement. JG stated that could not be the case as he would have to run the information past the EOS FA Board first.

There was a brief discussion on the agreement and whether majority agreement would suffice or if all parties had to agree. 

LD asked all parties present if they felt there was anything at the moment that would mean they could not agree to the proposal. She acknowledged that there were a few hurdles to get over but asked all parties if they felt there would be formal opposition.

JG mentioned that the SHFL were not represented at the working group. This was followed by a general discussion regarding the demarcation line and the geographical issues regarding that and how some teams would potentially have to travel large distances.

AR stated that it looked like the East were objecting to everything, but insisted that this was not the case. He felt there were grey areas and his Board may have objections relating to in particular discipline.

RO asked why, if there was a general desire for this to work, could the working group not focus on developing the rules and making it happen, rather than trying to find fault. JG said it was the job of the working group to make it happen.

AR said that he expected the new leagues to be represented at the NPGB. LD confirmed that they were already represented by TJ. AR also asked about the obligation on SJFA clubs to comply with audit regulations. TJ confirmed clubs require to do this at the moment. GF asked TJ if there was any feedback from SJFA clubs on the floodlight issue. TJ stated there was none at all. He said that the SJFA clubs have always known they would need floodlights to progress.

IM stated that he felt that there was nothing that could be considered a “show-stopper” and felt the process could be fairly straightforward. He stated that if there was a vote – for the wrong reasons – to stall the process, the Scottish FA Board would consider such action.

GF confirmed that there was a SLFL Board meeting on 17 January and a general meeting on 7 February. The East confirmed that they had a meeting soon and RO confirmed that the South had a meeting scheduled for end of February. All parties agreed to keep their clubs up to date.

IM agreed that he would produce a proposal, along with LD, to allow the SLFL to progress the Play Off Rules, as required by GF.

AR mentioned that the contentious matter was Tayside. That would be where the East clubs would have an objection. JG clarified that rather than Tayside, another East league would be the issue. There were already East leagues and there could be no room for another one. AR said that the Pyramid must be extended to north of the Tay and the West as there was a gap there.

TJ said that the SJFA has Tayside and West Lothian clubs and he would not be willing to tell them that they had to join the EOS FA to progress. TJ said that the matter had already been agreed by the Scottish FA Board and that AR and JG were going over old ground. The decision has been made at Scottish FA Board level and it has to be agreed how it will work. It cannot be changed or challenged at this stage.

IM suggested that the appetite from clubs for the Pyramid could change over time. Clubs who are not interested at the moment could be interested in the future. It was the purpose of this working group to make the Pyramid work.

AR declared that there would be objections from the East. IM asked if the fundamental objection was the geography issue. There was a general discussion regarding the 25 clubs leaving the SJFA at the end of Season 2017/2018 and joining the East of Scotland and who was responsible for that. IM stated that consultation was not a one way street and that communication from EOS FA surrounding the process could have been better.

LD asked parties to be upfront with their concerns so that the process would not be delayed. She asked for any problems to be dealt with now and not further down the line.

JG asked SB about a proposal he made for a change in the Scottish FA’s Articles. SB confirmed that the proposal had been received and would follow the normal Rules Revision process as Articles could not be changed during the course of the season.

TJ asked IM to alert the Scottish FA Board to the direction of travel as he felt, due to the concerns raised at this meeting, that there could be an issue with the working group being able to comply with a Board directive.

Based upon the assumption that the above is accurate then it would appear that TJ and or SJFA has attempted to by-pass the PWG by going direct to the SFA Board.

Presumably this can only be done with the kind co-operation of those in the SFA who prepare the Agendas for SFA Board meetings.  Who might that/they be?

This, of course, might be intended to circumvent the SFA's own rules and regulations, and agreed procedures, or it may not. However, it would seem to have that effect, would it not?

Surely it might be somewhat foolhardy for any employee(s) of the SFA to try to pull this seeming  "fast one" given that, when more clubs gain Full Membership of the SFA (via club licencing) these non SPFL clubs would be in a very strong position, indeed, to enforce a review of certain aspects of the SFA's operations, would they not? They could also support or not support candidates for the SFA Board, or put forward their own candidates? Perhaps they should, already, be browsing through the SFA's rules, regulations and procedures with a view to arranging an internal review of staffing, etc. Presumably there are deadlines for the submission of proposed rule changes etc? 

[AlanCamelonfan]

I think it'd quite clear what should be done iso wrsjfa to say sorry tom and go it alone as west territory if clubs want to be in the pyramid. They could weLL manage they have the new fixtures secretary and it seems to me loyalty to one man and a grade is holding it all back.

 

As for ersjfa if they want to stay junior stay junior if not should join eosfl. Tayside is another matter as it's quite clear lowland league wont accept Tayside clubs so if they want to get into pyramid it looks like needing to sort something out with highland league 

[superbigal]

So no need for me to read Larry's minutes as factually he has not told any lies as far as I can tell.

Until there is in writing the ersjfa are not in the lowland feeder at tier 6 then tbh the only conclusion for now is they are.

My scenario that Brechin vics could be in the lowland league while Brechin city are in the highland league is completely feasible.

Likewise Lochee utd in the lowland league while Dundee utd in the highland league.

 

 

This is all nonsence of course but is the sfa official current position

[AlanCamelonfan]

7 minutes ago, superbigal said:

So no need for me to read Larry's minutes as factually he has not told any lies as far as I can tell.

Until there is in writing the ersjfa are not in the lowland feeder at tier 6 then tbh the only conclusion for now is they are.

My scenario that Brechin vics could be in the lowland league while Brechin city are in the highland league is completely feasible.

Likewise Lochee utd in the lowland league while Dundee utd in the highland league.

 

 

This is all nonsence of course but is the sfa official current position

Well actally it's not because they said it has to be agreed by all parties at this point it hasn't. 

It's not to say they won't but I think it's unlikely. It's attitudes like this that are keeping this drama going.

[GNU_Linux]

So no need for me to read Larry's minutes as factually he has not told any lies as far as I can tell.
Until there is in writing the ersjfa are not in the lowland feeder at tier 6 then tbh the only conclusion for now is they are.
My scenario that Brechin vics could be in the lowland league while Brechin city are in the highland league is completely feasible.
Likewise Lochee utd in the lowland league while Dundee utd in the highland league.
 
 
This is all nonsence of course but is the sfa official current position

The LL posted advertising for applications for next season in light of the gap left by Selkirk & used the current HL/LL line which indicates the line has not been moved.

[LongTimeLurker]

These are the parts that jump out of the page for me:

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

...AR asked TJ how the SJFA leagues were run. TJ stated that the leagues dealt with their own administration. AR asked why the SJFA leagues were not represented at this meeting. TJ confirmed that he was the representative...

...IM asked GF to confirm the position with the draft Play Off Rules. GF stated that he would have to get a formal proposal from the working group to proceed. He confirmed that the Play Off Rules need agreement from the East, South, SLFL and the Scottish FA.

RO mentioned that this had not been the case in the past. GF confirmed that all parties must agree to the Play Off Rules. IM stated that if there was an agreement at this working group, then that would be all parties in agreement. JG stated that could not be the case as he would have to run the information past the EOS FA Board first....

....IM stated that he felt that there was nothing that could be considered a “show-stopper” and felt the process could be fairly straightforward. He stated that if there was a vote – for the wrong reasons – to stall the process, the Scottish FA Board would consider such action....

...TJ said that the SJFA has Tayside and West Lothian clubs and he would not be willing to tell them that they had to join the EOS FA to progress. TJ said that the matter had already been agreed by the Scottish FA Board and that AR and JG were going over old ground. The decision has been made at Scottish FA Board level and it has to be agreed how it will work. It cannot be changed or challenged at this stage.

AR declared that there would be objections from the East. IM asked if the fundamental objection was the geography issue. There was a general discussion regarding the 25 clubs leaving the SJFA at the end of Season 2017/2018 and joining the East of Scotland and who was responsible for that. IM stated that consultation was not a one way street and that communication from EOS FA surrounding the process could have been better...

JG asked SB about a proposal he made for a change in the Scottish FA’s Articles. SB confirmed that the proposal had been received and would follow the normal Rules Revision process as Articles could not be changed during the course of the season.

TJ asked IM to alert the Scottish FA Board to the direction of travel as he felt, due to the concerns raised at this meeting, that there could be an issue with the working group being able to comply with a Board directive....

Ian Maxwell is clearly on Tom Johnston's side on most of this, so a lot depends on what the SFA constitution actually says should happen after a "Board directive".  A clearer picture might also emerge if we knew what the EoSFA wants to change in the SFA's Articles.

[Burnie_man]

So no need for me to read Larry's minutes as factually he has not told any lies as far as I can tell.

Until there is in writing the ersjfa are not in the lowland feeder at tier 6 then tbh the only conclusion for now is they are.

My scenario that Brechin vics could be in the lowland league while Brechin city are in the highland league is completely feasible.

Likewise Lochee utd in the lowland league while Dundee utd in the highland league.

 

 

This is all nonsence of course but is the sfa official current position

Not sure how you can conclude that anyone is "in" based on those minutes. It's clear that nobody is "in" and that there is no agreement. TJ then seems to appeal to Maxwell to raise this with the board.

 

[locheeboy]

12 minutes ago, superbigal said:

So no need for me to read Larry's minutes as factually he has not told any lies as far as I can tell.

Until there is in writing the ersjfa are not in the lowland feeder at tier 6 then tbh the only conclusion for now is they are.

My scenario that Brechin vics could be in the lowland league while Brechin city are in the highland league is completely feasible.

Likewise Lochee utd in the lowland league while Dundee utd in the highland league.

 

 

This is all nonsence of course but is the sfa official current position

Al, come and see me