Pyramid 2019/2020

[Burnie_man]

7 minutes ago, PRICEY said:

 

So with us almost halfway through the season,you don’t know the league structure that 26 teams will be playing in next season?.

Did you read my reply? No we don't, but then it's not easy when you have lot's of Junior clubs wanting to join.

[GordonS]

8 minutes ago, PRICEY said:

 

So with us almost halfway through the season,you don’t know the league structure that 26 teams will be playing in next season?.

 

There will probably be more than 26, which is why it's being kept fluid. Which is good.

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, PRICEY said:

 

So with us almost halfway through the season,you don’t know the league structure that 26 teams will be playing in next season?.

This time last year how many clubs knew they'd be playing in EoS Conference A/B/C, or East Region Premier North/South?

[ian44wood]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

It could be another season of Conferences to accomodate the new members, with the aim of forming an EoS First Division for 2020-21, or they may form a First Division for next season below the Premier and then maybe regional below that.

Hopefully we see more applications from West Lothian and Fife and we can move further towards full integration of clubs.

 

That won't  be fair on the clubs that moved.

Why should the clubs that made the move get penalized by another year of conferences.

If the remaining east juniors now decide they now want to join the EOS league let them start at the bottom.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, ian44wood said:

That won't  be fair on the clubs that moved.

Why should the clubs that made the move get penalized by another year of conferences.

If the remaining east juniors now decide they now want to join the EOS league let them start at the bottom.

I don't disagree with that, just setting out examples of what may happen. At the moment we don't know what "bottom" looks like.

[AlanCamelonfan]

45 minutes ago, ian44wood said:

That won't  be fair on the clubs that moved.

Why should the clubs that made the move get penalized by another year of conferences.

If the remaining east juniors now decide they now want to join the EOS league let them start at the bottom.

It would be the bottom it would be tier 7

[honestly united]

5 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Other countries (like England's National League North/South) don't have a 103 mile drive between the "border clubs" though...

The problem is most of the Tayside/Angus area already has clubs higher up in the league system, and they're unlikely to drop down to the fifth tier anytime soon, so there's a big gap.

If you want to have a flexible boundary you could reduce the number of national leagues (to two or three) so that you have more clubs to play with (or get the Juniors involved). In the meantime - the boundary could move north to take in all of the East Juniors, but then you end up with too many teams in the Lowland area, so that would then need to split into west/east regions.

At the moment your correct, but give it a few season and their is the possibility of clubs from Angus or Tayside being your buffer zone between north and south

[GordonS]

9 minutes ago, honestly united said:

At the moment your correct, but give it a few season and their is the possibility of clubs from Angus or Tayside being your buffer zone between north and south

Even then, north of Dundee and south of Aberdeen there are only a few towns with a few clubs. The country thins out there. It's also an odd geography, because the effective distance from Tayside to the North East is made much longer by the need to go via Aberdeen, or the adventurous route over Cairn o Mount, though the by-pass will make a big difference to this.

My own view is that clubs in this area should be given the choice of what league they'd go into, by nominating before the start of each season. I don't think we can use the approach in England with clubs shunted around, or that used in the League Cup, as our population spread is too uneven.

 

[Marten]

10 hours ago, GordonS said:

Even then, north of Dundee and south of Aberdeen there are only a few towns with a few clubs. The country thins out there. It's also an odd geography, because the effective distance from Tayside to the North East is made much longer by the need to go via Aberdeen, or the adventurous route over Cairn o Mount, though the by-pass will make a big difference to this.

My own view is that clubs in this area should be given the choice of what league they'd go into, by nominating before the start of each season. I don't think we can use the approach in England with clubs shunted around, or that used in the League Cup, as our population spread is too uneven.

 

The only way how the approach like in England would work is 2 tier 5 leagues in the south (i.e. LL East / LL West) and 1 in the north. Then Dundee would likely fall in LL East, making it easier to manage. But even then, the "English" approach could mean a team like Cove Rangers ending up in the same league as clubs in the Borders due to the thinly populated area between Dundee and Aberdeen as you already highlighted.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Couldn't the issues with a "hard" dividing line (border clubs being cut off from local rivals or having needlessly long journeys that wouldn't be there on the other side) or a "soft" dividing line (could slowly travel North or South like in England where ye've had Bishop's Stortford play in the Conference North for instance) to have something inbetween? Keep the line on the Tay but allow cubs, say, 30 miles North or South of it can decide which league they fall into?

[Dev]

.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Dev
wrong topic

[Dev]

18 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Other countries (like England's National League North/South) don't have a 103 mile drive between the "border clubs" though...

The problem is most of the Tayside/Angus area already has clubs higher up in the league system, and they're unlikely to drop down to the fifth tier anytime soon, so there's a big gap.

If you want to have a flexible boundary you could reduce the number of national leagues (to two or three) so that you have more clubs to play with (or get the Juniors involved). In the meantime - the boundary could move north to take in all of the East Juniors, but then you end up with too many teams in the Lowland area, so that would then need to split into west/east regions.

This map shows perfectly why the country must be divided in two for Pyramid purposes.

The Pyramid is there to provide the a pathway for each and every club, if it so wishes, to find its' own level. However, it is necessary to take into account the one thing that you cannot change i.e. the Geography.

This is why the boundary between the footballing two regions is where it is.

Currently there is no automatic promotion into Division Two and Play-Offs are in place between the leading Highland and Lowland Leagues Champions which allows the best club out of the two regions to enter that Division Two Play-Off. If one region is perceived to be weaker than the other it really doesn't matter because it does not prevent the best club from competing in the Play-Off with the bottom Division Two club.

Including Dundee/Angus clubs in the northern half of the country might seem inconsiderate but if they grasped the opportunity the Highland region could be significantly strengthened, as could the profile of football in this area e.g. guaranteed entry into the Scottish Cup each season etc.

[old speckled hen]

Thanks for that info folks. Incidentally, Selkirk were mentioned as a possible addition next season but one of the criteria was that you had to have the previous three years of accounts in good order, whether that just means in good order to look at or whether it means that you mustn't have had financial problems I don't know. Could it be the amateur club Serkirk Vics who would be applying, that would maybe be a way round it?

[AlanCamelonfan]

16 minutes ago, old speckled hen said:

Thanks for that info folks. Incidentally, Selkirk were mentioned as a possible addition next season but one of the criteria was that you had to have the previous three years of accounts in good order, whether that just means in good order to look at or whether it means that you mustn't have had financial problems I don't know. Could it be the amateur club Serkirk Vics who would be applying, that would maybe be a way round it?

It will be a newco same as gretna

[effeffsee_the2nd]

6 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Couldn't the issues with a "hard" dividing line (border clubs being cut off from local rivals or having needlessly long journeys that wouldn't be there on the other side) or a "soft" dividing line (could slowly travel North or South like in England where ye've had Bishop's Stortford play in the Conference North for instance) to have something inbetween? Keep the line on the Tay but allow cubs, say, 30 miles North or South of it can decide which league they fall into?

 

6 hours ago, Dev said:

This map shows perfectly why the country must be divided in two for Pyramid purposes.

The Pyramid is there to provide the a pathway for each and every club, if it so wishes, to find its' own level. However, it is necessary to take into account the one thing that you cannot change i.e. the Geography.

This is why the boundary between the footballing two regions is where it is.

Currently there is no automatic promotion into Division Two and Play-Offs are in place between the leading Highland and Lowland Leagues Champions which allows the best club out of the two regions to enter that Division Two Play-Off. If one region is perceived to be weaker than the other it really doesn't matter because it does not prevent the best club from competing in the Play-Off with the bottom Division Two club.

Including Dundee/Angus clubs in the northern half of the country might seem inconsiderate but if they grasped the opportunity the Highland region could be significantly strengthened, as could the profile of football in this area e.g. guaranteed entry into the Scottish Cup each season etc.

like I say I've kept an eye on this from a distance out of pure curiosity, I admit I don't watch any non league football so this won't change my enjoyment of them game unless Falkirk keep going the way they're going for a few seasons in a row.    I've followed discussions on the pyramid for  a few year now , I think it would bring out the best in the non league grades after a few seasons and everybody is able to find the right level.  no more big fish in small ponds and poor whipping boys getting pumped every week. 

Anyway , if you give teams around the boundary a choice then they will all choose the south,  people mostly do what they think is best for them and tae f**k with everyone else. no team will really want to make trips to golspie and brora with the shite roads.  the teams in angus and dundee ( least in the short term) need to "take one for the team" if you like for the sake of not leaving the north section a pish poor backwater once the better sides slowly get promoted .  only problem with fixed boundarys is that there are so few north region teams in the spfl, if a highland team gets promoted in favour of a lowland team you just know the sfa will make a right old c**t of things

[GordonS]

3 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Anyway , if you give teams around the boundary a choice then they will all choose the south...

You would think so, but Montrose Roselea recently switched from the East Region Juniors to the North Region Juniors, so there's presumably more to it. And a trip from Angus to Brora isn't much worse than Angus to Coldstream.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

You would think so, but Montrose Roselea recently switched from the East Region Juniors to the North Region Juniors, so there's presumably more to it. And a trip from Angus to Brora isn't much worse than Angus to Coldstream.

ah well happy to be corrected mate, not personaly made the trip myself . I know that Dundee to coldstream or dumfries in mostly dual carriageway where as a lot of the way up north isn't, although the majority of teams in the highland league  are in Aberdeenshire and not the true highlands.  what about further down in the north region once promotion relegation kicks in? are there more teams from the far north and west coast where population and roads are much sparser?

[Cyclizine]

Sadly, our geography, club distribution and population split doesn't fit easily with having equal numbers of clubs in each region. I think the most pragmatic long-term solution is something like the Regionalligen in Germany. Have relatively fixed boundaries and just set the promotion and play-off places in proportion the  number of licenced clubs in each region. You'd need to have more than one relegation slot in SPFL2 though - at least one automatic and one playoff place. This means that you can have a relatively shallow pyramid in the North, due to the density of the clubs, but a deeper one in the East/West without making it 'easier' for a North team to gain promotion. This approach works further down the levels as well.

[Glenconner]

The travel is not the worst of it although nobody seems to mention a team isn’t expected to arrived 2 minutes before kickoff or the higher you go in the leagues floodlights and midweek games kick in. What if the company doesn’t give an eff about a player playing for XYZ Utd. Effing off at lunchtime 5 weeks in a row might not be suitable for every workplace. Wouldn’t fancy leaving Wick after a midweek game and then travelling to say Dundee.

[cmontheloknow]

56 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

The travel is not the worst of it although nobody seems to mention a team isn’t expected to arrived 2 minutes before kickoff or the higher you go in the leagues floodlights and midweek games kick in. What if the company doesn’t give an eff about a player playing for XYZ Utd. Effing off at lunchtime 5 weeks in a row might not be suitable for every workplace. Wouldn’t fancy leaving Wick after a midweek game and then travelling to say Dundee.

wick rarely play midweek though.