Pyramid 2019/2020

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The Ian Maxwell came off the back of a Professional Game Board meeting. So I don't believe the SJFA and EoS would of been represented.

In which case they probably only covered the cliff notes of the previous PWG meeting.  The continued differences weren't likely highlighted as significant.

Given the absence of any reference to the HL/LL boundary in that draft email from Maxwell, it makes you wonder if the Professional Game Board even gave it any consideration, and you would think it would require the SPFL to agree to any changes to accommodate Tayside clubs, given the knock-on effects.

It's clear that not everyone came out of the last PWG meeting with the same understanding of what was agreed, and this is worsened by the fact there's no minutes circulated in order for any inaccuracies to be highlighted, very amateurish.

[Pyramidic]

33 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It's clear that not everyone came out of the last PWG meeting with the same understanding of what was agreed, and this is worsened by the fact there's no minutes circulated in order for any inaccuracies to be highlighted, very amateurish.

The whole process in my view appears to lack firm leadership , innovation and tact from the SFA. Personally I think that the Pyramid issue is too fraught with entrenched views to be delivered purely on the basis of consensus at the PWG. The Juniors are the ones seeking entry to the Pyramid and obviously they are the ones that will now need to "bend" to be accommodated. Not the EoSL. The SFA are heading "up **** creek" to think otherwise.

[LongTimeLurker]

16 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

....2) The SFA run roughshod over the EoS in favour of TJ and the SJFA, which is unlikely.

Ultimately it's up to the SFA how things proceed and everybody but the EoS agreeing to something can still be described as a consensus. A consensus does not imply unanimity.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Ultimately it's up to the SFA how things proceed and everybody but the EoS agreeing to something can still be described as a consensus. A consensus does not imply unanimity.

I think in this environment, consensus means unanimity on way forward.

As I said, the SFA are unlikely to progress this unless everyone agrees to the next step (not necessarily all happy, but all in agreement), and if the EoS, one of their oldest member leagues and the main founding component of the LL/Pyramid, isn't happy the SFA aren't likely to ignore that in favour of an organisation that has blanked and bad mouthed the Lowland League since it's inception.  

I also think the LL will be sympathetic to the EoS point of view, talk of LL2 is perhaps an illustration of that. Civil Service Strollers proposed LL2, they also have a representative who sits on the EoS Board.

[LongTimeLurker]

If LL2 involves east and west sections then problem solved basically as that takes the top clubs in both the east and the west away from the SJFA once and for all and it's a lot more reasonable to feed from four at tier 7 into two at tier 6 then one at tier 5.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Given the absence of any reference to the HL/LL boundary in that draft email from Maxwell, it makes you wonder if the Professional Game Board even gave it any consideration, and you would think it would require the SPFL to agree to any changes to accommodate Tayside clubs, given the knock-on effects.

It's clear that not everyone came out of the last PWG meeting with the same understanding of what was agreed, and this is worsened by the fact there's no minutes circulated in order for any inaccuracies to be highlighted, very amateurish.

With it being a PGB meeting the SPFL, HL & LL would all have been present though. So I think the boundary would have been discussed at some level, which is why connectivity to Lowland League was mentioned.

Original plan for Lowland League would of had East Region juniors involved. Angus SPFL clubs don't want to be in the HL. Tayside juniors don't want the HL and the HL don't want them.

I don't think the boundary would be that big an issue based on that.

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If LL2 involves east and west sections then problem solved basically as that takes the top clubs in both the east and the west away from the SJFA once and for all and it's a lot more reasonable to feed from four at tier 7 into two at tier 6 then one at tier 5.

I think that would be a good way forward with the EoS to control tier 7 and below in the east, and the WRJFA (or WoS) same in the west, and allow the LL to control tier 5 and a regional tier 6.   I don't think it will allow for the ERJFA to remain though and to be honest doesn't benefit anyone, better to have unity at tier 7 and therefore a strong feeder to a LL2 East.

The way Scottish football works though I'm not sure all of that could be got over the line for next season, time is short, particularly as I said TJ only has a mandate to negotiate on the basis that the SJFA remains intact. The flip side is the LL just go ahead and do it and invite applications (whether a single LL2 or a west and east), there would be a flood.

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

With it being a PGB meeting the SPFL, HL & LL would all have been present though. So I think the boundary would have been discussed at some level, which is why connectivity to Lowland League was mentioned.

Original plan for Lowland League would of had East Region juniors involved. Angus SPFL clubs don't want to be in the HL. Tayside juniors don't want the HL and the HL don't want them.

I don't think the boundary would be that big an issue based on that.

Is there anything out there that confirms Angus clubs don't want to be in the HL and would prefer LL? Because as it stands they will drop into the HL but to the best of my knowledge this has never been questioned.

I've never seen any evidence that the HL don't want Tayside Junior clubs, it's probably not even been discussed. The Maxwell email suggests the HL pyramid will be next in the agenda to resolve.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Is there anything out there that confirms Angus clubs don't want to be in the HL and would prefer LL? Because as it stands they will drop into the HL but to the best of my knowledge this has never been questioned.

I've never seen any evidence that the HL don't want Tayside Junior clubs, it's probably not even been discussed. The Maxwell email suggests the HL pyramid will be next in the agenda to resolve.

The Angus clubs in SPFL comes from Montrose and all the quotes at the time of the first SPFL relegation playoff. 

Tayside and HL not wanting each other is largely based on social media posts. 

The HL pyramid does get mentioned being next but only North Juniors are mentioned. 

 

[Vollyman]

I think in this environment, consensus means unanimity on way forward.
As I said, the SFA are unlikely to progress this unless everyone agrees to the next step (not necessarily all happy, but all in agreement), and if the EoS, one of their oldest member leagues and the main founding component of the LL/Pyramid, isn't happy the SFA aren't likely to ignore that in favour of an organisation that has blanked and bad mouthed the Lowland League since it's inception.  
I also think the LL will be sympathetic to the EoS point of view, talk of LL2 is perhaps an illustration of that. Civil Service Strollers proposed LL2, they also have a representative who sits on the EoS Board.

Short memory remember you contributed to the bad mouthing of the Lowland League when your club was a member of that organisation “the Lowland League will never happen it is a busted flush” a bit of hypocrisy.

[vikingTON]

The Montrose quotes were IMO partly i) a standard shitting the bed response to the prospect of leaving the national leagues, which any club and fanbase in the same position would experience and ii) a recognition that they were in no position to waltz back up anytime soon from a very competitive Highland League (at the top end anyway). 

It's worth questioning then what difference the precise regional tier would have really made had they been relegated. East Stirling aren't getting out of the Low,and League anytime soon, but it hasn't 'killed' the club as some people expected when they were finally papped out of the national leagues; nobody would give them a free pass to choose which league they want to compete in though. 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by vikingTON

[Burnie_man]

28 minutes ago, Vollyman said:

Short memory remember you contributed to the bad mouthing of the Lowland League when your club was a member of that organisation “the Lowland League will never happen it is a busted flush” a bit of hypocrisy.

Well given we as a club supported the formation of the Lowland League, and Junior involvment at its foundation, then no it's not. 

I also never said what you have typed, that was in 2015 when the Lowland League was already on the go, but the EoS was losing members and looked a busted flush, and I called it how I saw it at the time and thankfully I called it wrong.

However I've already gone over this a few months back, what relevance does this have exactly to the current situation other than having a dig at me? Do you or your club have anything positive to contribute?

Edited November 2, 2018 by Burnie_man

[Vollyman]

Well given we as a club supported the formation of the Lowland League, and Junior involvment at its foundation, then no it's not. 
I also never said what you have typed, that was in 2015 when the Lowland League was already on the go, but the EoS was losing members and looked a busted flush, and I called it how I saw it at the time and thankfully I called it wrong.
However I've already gone over this a few months back, what relevance does this have exactly to the current situation other than having a dig at me? Do you or your club have anything positive to contribute?

Over the years George Farm,Jackie Plenderleith, Johnny McLeod, Colin Stein,all played for Scotland and Joe Baker played for England plus many other ex Dale players had successful careers in football. The on going developments at Volunteer Park are geared for further contributions to the community and Scottish Football

[Burnie_man]

Over the years George Farm,Jackie Plenderleith, Johnny McLeod, Colin Stein,all played for Scotland and Joe Baker played for England plus many other ex Dale players had successful careers in football. The on going developments at Volunteer Park are geared for further contributions to the community and Scottish Football

Not sure that will help bring about an acceptable resolution to the ongoing discussions. Any opinion on what the outcome should be?

[FairWeatherFan]

53 minutes ago, virginton said:

The Montrose quotes were IMO partly i) a standard shitting the bed response to the prospect of leaving the national leagues, which any club and fanbase in the same position would experience and ii) a recognition that they were in no position to waltz back up anytime soon from a very competitive Highland League (at the top end anyway). 

It's worth questioning then what difference the precise regional tier would have really made had they been relegated. East Stirling aren't getting out of the Low,and League anytime soon, but it hasn't 'killed' the club as some people expected when they were finally papped out of the national leagues; nobody would give them a free pass to choose which league they want to compete in though. 

 

I think it was very much a combination of fears at the time. Fears that likely still persist as there hasn't been enough turnover to give evidence to the contrary. The drop in money from reduced prize money, falling attendances and lack of sponsorships.

The approach to player recruitment would likely have to change. In the first year you'd probably have a complete turnover of squad. Players willing to play Highland League football is a reduced talent pool compared to a league covering the Central Belt, and even then the better ones will probably signed up to your new Highland League rivals.

Of course most of the issues would of existed regardless of which league they were relegated into. Trips to Threave Rovers, Selkirk, Gala, Gretna and Dalbeattie wouldn't have been money spinners.

 

[Vollyman]

Not sure that will help bring about an acceptable resolution to the ongoing discussions. Any opinion on what the outcome should be?

The time has come for the SFA to make a decision all the various parties have had their say and the SFA are the governing body and should consider the input of all regions and form the Pyramid system to start next year,no doubt their will be those who will be unhappy. Let’s get it started and review it in a couple of years.

[Burnie_man]

The time has come for the SFA to make a decision all the various parties have had their say and the SFA are the governing body and should consider the input of all regions and form the Pyramid system to start next year,no doubt their will be those who will be unhappy. Let’s get it started and review it in a couple of years.

That's fair enough.

[GNU_Linux]

Have the EOS hinted at what their divisional structure will look like next season besides the premier of 16? Or is it a case of waiting to see what happens with the pyramid ie east juniors & where Tayside goes before deciding on a plan?

[Burnie_man]

29 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

Have the EOS hinted at what their divisional structure will look like next season besides the premier of 16? Or is it a case of waiting to see what happens with the pyramid ie east juniors & where Tayside goes before deciding on a plan?

Nope, only confirmed a top 16 Premier.  They reason that it's such a changing picture between now and July that it's very difficult to plan any further.

[FairWeatherFan]

20 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

Have the EOS hinted at what their divisional structure will look like next season besides the premier of 16? Or is it a case of waiting to see what happens with the pyramid ie east juniors & where Tayside goes before deciding on a plan?

It's a case of waiting to see what happens. Not only in terms of applications and potential pyramid restructuring, but having seen how things have gone on the field clubs are going to have preferences over regionalisation or additional tiers.

Everyone has been expecting further change of some sort next year. Closest thing I saw about it was from around the time of the AGM from John Greenhorn:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/lower-leagues/focus-on-local-football-east-of-scotland-league-now-place-to-be-1-4752193