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The_Judge

SPFL reject idea to remove plastic pitches from top divison

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36 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Are the best artificial pitches as good as the best grass pitches?

 

Nope, during the course of the season though the best grass pitches will deteriorate and the artificial ones wont. So even the best grass pitches have minus points against artificial ones.

 

I find it amusing the biased comments from pundits too, anyone slips on a grass pitch and not a word is said, same thing on a plastic pitch and they immediately have some quip slagging the pitch off.

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2 hours ago, The_Judge said:

An interesting idea?

Are there any fans of Livingston, Hamilton or Kilmarnock that stopped going because of the change to an artificial pitch OR any fans of other SPFL teams that stopped visiting those grounds BECAUSE of the pitch change?

I can honestly say I didn't go to Rugby Park for the Hearts - Killie game earlier this season because I don't like watching games on those pitches. Not at Premiership level.

I don't mind it in lower league games, especially League One and League Two, because the standard is lower anyway and I think it has less of an impact on those games because of the style of play.

Instead of going to Rugby Park me and a couple of my mates went to Queens Park v Albion Rovers.

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I think the issue that some have with it is not the quality of the pitch (some are very good, some less so) but the feeling that it gives the home team more of an advantage than traditional grass pitches.

Anyone know if there's been any research on the matter?

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31 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I can honestly say I didn't go to Rugby Park for the Hearts - Killie game earlier this season because I don't like watching games on those pitches. Not at Premiership level.

I don't mind it in lower league games, especially League One and League Two, because the standard is lower anyway and I think it has less of an impact on those games because of the style of play.

Instead of going to Rugby Park me and a couple of my mates went to Queens Park v Albion Rovers.

That’s a bit like saying that I’m not going to watch my team the next time that there’s more rain than usual on the pitch that they’re going to play on. Your decision not to watch Hearts at Rugby Park must have made sense to you, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

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Posted this on another thread a few weeks ago, but I find it striking that almost all of the players and coaches who speak in favour of artificial pitches are on the payroll of a club who has one.

As I mentioned before, I also know an ex-top flight player who says that it's funny seeing players stick up for artificial pitches in public when employed by a club that uses one while absolutely slating them in private. Apparently this is a regular source of group-text chat 'bantz' among players, similar to when a player publicly praises a coach he is widely known to despise.

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Just now, kingjoey said:

That’s a bit like saying that I’m not going to watch my team the next time that there’s more rain than usual on the pitch that they’re going to play on. Your decision not to watch Hearts at Rugby Park must have made sense to you, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Made sense to me.

I don't like watching players run around awkwardly, pass the ball awkwardly, tackle awkwardly or seeing the ball run away from a player who would usually control it (insert Scottish fitba not for you gag here). And that's what you get with games at Rugby Park.

I don't fancy paying a right few quid for that, so decided I could cope with being apart from Hearts for an afternoon. Enjoyed Queens Park.

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1 hour ago, Mpire said:

I was skeptical about Livi putting in their pitch over the summer but based on the number of games we had to cancel last year that cost the club thousands and now that our new one is bedding in I'm in favor of it if its the right think for the club (i.e. we can't afford the artificial lights in the winter or have half synthetic half real grass like Hearts so I think its been a good thing everything considered.

Save even more money as don't need to pay to upkeep a training pitch either. Team trains in the stadium now!

Didn't they just train on the astro beside the stadium before this?

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Just now, Torpar said:

Didn't they just train on the astro beside the stadium before this?

No; more often than not for the last couple of seasons they trained on the astro turf in Murieston.

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7 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Posted this on another thread a few weeks ago, but I find it striking that almost all of the players and coaches who speak in favour of artificial pitches are on the payroll of a club who has one.

As I mentioned before, I also know an ex-top flight player who says that it's funny seeing players stick up for artificial pitches in public when employed by a club that uses one while absolutely slating them in private. Apparently this is a regular source of group-text chat 'bantz' among players, similar to when a player publicly praises a coach he is widely known to despise.

I've also heard of plenty of players from clubs with non artificial surface speak out in favour. I've rarely heard of players from clubs where the gaffer has spoken out against them (e.g. the rangers) speak out in favour. Swings and roundabouts.

 

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7 minutes ago, Durnford said:

I've also heard of plenty of players from clubs with non artificial surface speak out in favour. I've rarely heard of players from clubs where the gaffer has spoken out against them (e.g. the rangers) speak out in favour. Swings and roundabouts.

 

Like who?

Quick Google search finds Kenny Miller (while their manager) and Gary Holt defending the Livi pitch and Steve Clarke defending the Killie pitch, while Brendan Rodgers, Steven Gerrard, Robbie Neilson, various players and even the PFA express criticism or doubts.

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39 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

I think the issue that some have with it is not the quality of the pitch (some are very good, some less so) but the feeling that it gives the home team more of an advantage than traditional grass pitches.

Anyone know if there's been any research on the matter?

There can't really be any valid research on if it gives the home team advantage. Firstly most teams do better at home anyway. Secondly the variables (players and managers) change to much for there be a valid comparison. 

You'd need to play the same games with the same teams in the same stadium but on grass for a comparison.

I would have thought that any pitch, grass or artificial, would probably give a slight benefit to the home given they'll know it better (they'll know where the ball bounces differently on a certain patch or know that the ball holds up in certain areas more than others or where divots that have been replaced are etc). Any such advantage is very small.

The only advantage artificial pitches have are a psychological one as the narrative is that they're madly different and injure players. Players will hear this and it will be in their minds and it can affect them. A ready made excuse is a poor frame of mind to go in to a game with.

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23 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Made sense to me.

I don't like watching players run around awkwardly, pass the ball awkwardly, tackle awkwardly or seeing the ball run away from a player who would usually control it (insert Scottish fitba not for you gag here). And that's what you get with games at Rugby Park.

I don't fancy paying a right few quid for that, so decided I could cope with being apart from Hearts for an afternoon. Enjoyed Queens Park.

Ok, so all artificial pitches are the exact same and all grass pitches are exactly the same.

Glad we've cleared that up.

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2 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

There can't really be any valid research on if it gives the home team advantage. Firstly most teams do better at home anyway. Secondly the variables (players and managers) change to much for there be a valid comparison. 

You'd need to play the same games with the same teams in the same stadium but on grass for a comparison.

I would have thought that any pitch, grass or artificial, would probably give a slight benefit to the home given they'll know it better (they'll know where the ball bounces differently on a certain patch or know that the ball holds up in certain areas more than others or where divots that have been replaced are etc). Any such advantage is very small.

The only advantage artificial pitches have are a psychological one as the narrative is that they're madly different and injure players. Players will hear this and it will be in their minds and it can affect them. A ready made excuse is a poor frame of mind to go in to a game with.

A valid statistical investigation can easily be done into this, but not a this stage. The pitches are too new.

It would be very easy to compare home records of teams with and without artificial pitches, comparing them to the same clubs' prior home records and to home records of clubs finishing in similar league positions, or to clubs in a certain position in the leage's budget table, or to the variation between home and away form using all of the same comparisons etc. Not a difficult thing to do as any statistically significant change would stick out.

Need to wait a few years though.

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2 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Ok, so all artificial pitches are the exact same and all grass pitches are exactly the same.

Glad we've cleared that up.

Not what I said at all.

That's what you get at Rugby Park, though. It's a poor surface for football.

 

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4 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

A valid statistical investigation can easily be done into this, but not a this stage. The pitches are too new.

It would be very easy to compare home records of teams with and without artificial pitches, comparing them to the same clubs' prior home records and to home records of clubs finishing in similar league positions, or to clubs in a certain position in the leage's budget table, or to the variation between home and away form using all of the same comparisons etc. Not a difficult thing to do as any statistically significant change would stick out.

Need to wait a few years though.

But you ignoring the turnover of players and managers which are a factor. You can't simply attribute a win/loss record to the playing surface.

3 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Not what I said at all.

That's what you get at Rugby Park, though. It's a poor surface for football.

 

You have implied it by suggesting that the pitch at Rugby Park plays differently to a grass pitch. Without stating which grass pitch the only conclusion is that you believe all grass pitches to be the same.

Also what was the incident you saw at a game on the pitch at Rugby Park where a player saw the ball run away from them when they'd usually control it on every single grass pitch?

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1 minute ago, DA Baracus said:

1) But you ignoring the turnover of players and managers which are a factor. You can't simply attribute a win/loss record to the playing surface.

2) You have implied it by suggesting that the pitch at Rugby Park plays differently to a grass pitch. Without stating which grass pitch the only conclusion is that you believe all grass pitches to be the same.

3) Also what was the incident you saw at a game on the pitch at Rugby Park where a player saw the ball run away from them when they'd usually control it on every single grass pitch?

1) You can't on any single day, no. But running the numbers over various clubs with and without the artificial surfaces over a number of years and controlling figures for budget, league position etc would reveal whether there is any significant statistical difference. From a stats point of view that's a really simple task.

2) Of course grass changes based on climate, how it's laid etc. But grass is the standard. Artificial pitches simply play differently. Anyone who has kicked a ball on one knows that, and there is overwhelming consensus from players and coaches that this is the case. It's also clear as the nose on your face to anyone watching a game.

3) Pretty obtuse question. I don't watch games with a notebook for this purpose. It's plain to the observer. That said, it's also easy to say "He'd have mis-controlled that anyway". But I think even the casual observer can see that players are less comfortable playing at Rugby Park than they are normally.

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A quote from Gary Holt.

"It's a massive advantage for us. We train on it every day and we love it. It makes it quicker"

An advantage for the home team, plain and simple.

 

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1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

I can honestly say I didn't go to Rugby Park for the Hearts - Killie game earlier this season because I don't like watching games on those pitches. Not at Premiership level.

I don't mind it in lower league games, especially League One and League Two, because the standard is lower anyway and I think it has less of an impact on those games because of the style of play.

Instead of going to Rugby Park me and a couple of my mates went to Queens Park v Albion Rovers.

What a loyal fan you are.

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