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Shannon

Oldest Junior Football Team?

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When looking at Twitter this afternoon to see the ties for Junior Cup 3rd Round. I noticed a couple of Dundee East Craigie fans saying their team are the oldest Junior team
 
According to Wikipedia:
 
Dundee East Craigie have played unbroken since their formation, and lay claim to being the oldest Junior club in Scotland although this is disputed by other clubs such as Kirkintilloch Rob Roy, Larkhall Thistle and Vale of Clyde....
 
Who is correct? All 4 teams formed around 1879 / 1880?
 
I always thought Larkhall were oldest Junior team just through reading of their programme & history on their website. Who is right? Anyone know or care?


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East Craigie have a sign outside their ground proclaiming them to be Scotland's oldest junior club, but I seem to recall some years back that they merged (taken over?) by neighbours Elmwood as they were about to fold.

That gives them an Airdrieonians/Clydebank/Airdrie United/ back to Airdrieonians type of history. Could be wrong though.

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Got to be Larkhall Thistle 1878. Always played Junior and were never morphed by other clubs.

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28 minutes ago, Den Spark said:

East Craigie have a sign outside their ground proclaiming them to be Scotland's oldest junior club, but I seem to recall some years back that they merged (taken over?) by neighbours Elmwood as they were about to fold.

That gives them an Airdrieonians/Clydebank/Airdrie United/ back to Airdrieonians type of history. Could be wrong though.

Quick search through Courier on britishnewspaperarchive online finds nothing on East Craigie pre 1885. Their website and Wikipedia ;) claim that they were previously know as Craigie before that however nothing football related comes up under that search earlier than 1885. Dundee Junior Football Association was formed in 1885.

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5 minutes ago, Blackie Gold said:

Got to be Larkhall Thistle 1878. Always played Junior and were never morphed by other clubs.

No such thing as junior football in 1878 so second sentence is bull. Maybe you can point out the Junior Competitions they played in before the formation of the Lanarkshire Football Association ( in 1885 according to the Juniors Centenary book)

Edited by gogsy

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Rather than jump in without researching I trawled through the "History of the Juniors 100 Years which has Larkhall formed in 1878. Granted it didn't say they were Junior so I used the excellent Scottish Historians Club Index that states that Larkhall were Junior. Seemingly there was a grade of Junior football in 1878, but no SJFA or Lanarkshire League. But you being a Fife Fanny you might be right, but then again you might not be. Could you please point me in the direction though where I can phsically read that there was no Junior football in 1878, I would be deeply interested.

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9 minutes ago, gogsy said:

No such thing as junior football in 1878 so second sentence is bull. Maybe you can point out the Junior Competitions they played in before the formation of the Lanarkshire Football Association ( in 1885 according to the Juniors Centenary book)

Though they were playing at Gasworks in 1881. The early days of the Juniors seems as muddy as Lochburn come late March.

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The big historical club list that is online somewhere (sorry to be so vague - I am looking at an older offline version of it) that shows Junior clubs popping up from the early 1870s.

There is a lot of fluidity though between Junior and Senior in those early days and clubs jumped back and forth...

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2 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

There is a lot of fluidity though between Junior and Senior in those early days and clubs jumped back and forth...

Just like nowadays? :wacko:

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15 minutes ago, Blackie Gold said:

Rather than jump in without researching I trawled through the "History of the Juniors 100 Years which has Larkhall formed in 1878. Granted it didn't say they were Junior so I used the excellent Scottish Historians Club Index that states that Larkhall were Junior. Seemingly there was a grade of Junior football in 1878, but no SJFA or Lanarkshire League. But you being a Fife Fanny you might be right, but then again you might not be. Could you please point me in the direction though where I can phsically read that there was no Junior football in 1878, I would be deeply interested.

Scottish historians club index funnily enough has copied date from Larkhalls history. There was no grade of football known as junior  football in 1878. A lack of any evidence of any source from that period describing any grade of football as junior seems to give the game away here. If you do want to dip into the juniors centenary book again have a look at when the various early junior local associations were formed (page 25 in my copy), have a look and see if you can find any junior cup competitions or any organised competition in those areas prior to that. At the time of 1878 it was just football, there was no artificial difference.

Edited by gogsy

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13 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

The big historical club list that is online somewhere (sorry to be so vague - I am looking at an older offline version of it) that shows Junior clubs popping up from the early 1870s.

There is a lot of fluidity though between Junior and Senior in those early days and clubs jumped back and forth...

I had a look myself and just going through the teams starting with A there was quite a few that were formed before the SJFA.

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17 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

The big historical club list that is online somewhere (sorry to be so vague - I am looking at an older offline version of it) that shows Junior clubs popping up from the early 1870s.

There is a lot of fluidity though between Junior and Senior in those early days and clubs jumped back and forth...

This all the way.

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5 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Scottish historians club index funnily enough has copied date from Larkhalls history. There was no grade of football known as junior  football in 1878. A lack of any evidence of any source from that period describing any grade of football as junior seems to give the game away here.

So you have no evidence that there was a grade of Junior football when Larkhall were formed. I have put forward a source that teams were Junior, it comes from a renowned group of historians. Also the club itself class themselves as the oldest Junior club. Have you got the evidence to prove that they are telling a great big lie?

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2 minutes ago, Blackie Gold said:

I had a look myself and just going through the teams starting with A there was quite a few that were formed before the SJFA.

SJFA were formed after some of the local asociations. There was junior football as such and described as such before SJFA was formed .

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So Larkhall are right in stating they are the oldest Junior club formed in 1878?

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2 minutes ago, Blackie Gold said:

So Larkhall are right in stating they are the oldest Junior club formed in 1878?

Larkhall haven't been playing junior football since 1878. There was no junior football in Lanarkshire in 1878 .

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Where is your proof? Why would Larkhall publically display that they are Scotland's oldest Junior football club if it was a lie.

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Guess Larkhall can claim to be the oldest club playing junior football then, while East Craigie can claim to be the longest running junior club?

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