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Ardenvohr6

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Right let's get this fucking straight

Some amount of nonsense written here

I don't find it acceptable to abuse anyone within the game officials players or managers but everyone and including fans must be and should be able to accept criticism if they are not performing in the role nobody should be above criticism as long as it's not personal abuse

So can folk stick to the point rather than talking utter shite for likes

 

 

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Calm down there, I am agreeing with you about the standards, I am trying to give my opinion, as an ex amateur level ref, why its happening.
Yes sorry I get that and it's a fair point but the opening part of it seemed to suggest I was in support of the personal abuse of folk which could not be further from the truth
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Guest Moomintroll
Yes sorry I get that and it's a fair point but the opening part of it seemed to suggest I was in support of the personal abuse of folk which could not be further from the truth
I know, was trying to illustrate a point, you havent once said anything to support it on this thread or on the Candy thread. I do despair at the standard and the prevailing attitudes but sadly I think its only going to get worse.
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7 minutes ago, griffiti on the wall said:

Right let's get this fucking straight

Some amount of nonsense written here

I don't find it acceptable to abuse anyone within the game officials players or managers but everyone and including fans must be and should be able to accept criticism if they are not performing in the role nobody should be above criticism as long as it's not personal abuse

So can folk stick to the point rather than talking utter shite for likes

 

 

An official melt down right there.

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An official melt down right there.
Not a meltdown your just a bore with nothing to say
So why not listen to the previous poster and see what he has got to say as unlike every little committee monkey on here
This guy has actually been a referee and he can tell us why standards as he agreed have fallen ?
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I know, was trying to illustrate a point, you havent once said anything to support it on this thread or on the Candy thread. I do despair at the standard and the prevailing attitudes but sadly I think its only going to get worse.
Sorry for biting originally fella
Can you explain why in your opinion as a former referee standards are falling and indeed may get worse and if possible what you would see as a solution to this ?
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Guest Moomintroll
Sorry for biting originally fella
Can you explain why in your opinion as a former referee standards are falling and indeed may get worse and if possible what you would see as a solution to this ?
I genuinely have no answer to it as it runs on so many different levels. There is a recruitment issue so less of a pool of talent to draw on (See also Scotland National Team), of those that are coming through there are certain values that are encouraged by the supervisors as already discussed at length around inflexibility of decision making, approach to talking to players, management etc. This is not helped by the attitude of players and management towards bending and breaking the laws and the sometimes hysterical reaction towards the most routine of decisions. Both sides seem utterly entrenched at the moment and it has been a gradual process over 25+ years. It isnt going to happen but we somehow need to get the playing side screwing the nut while attracting and promoting referees who can communicate and man manage situations while recognising where enough is enough and cards need to be shown. Tl;dr version, we're fucked.
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I had said something similar before the all the nonsense on here broke out .
I think good refs can manage a game and let it flow but obviously I have never sat with a referees supervisor so don't know if they get marked down for that .
I remember certain games utd v arsenal even some Celtic v rangers games where the players would be obviously hyped up and the ref would keep things on a lid for the 1st 10-15 mins then the football would break out and there was no need for a flurry of early bookings to me that was just great man management of the game .
Not every tackle is a booking and not every booking is a red card .
On the issue of player discipline your absolutely spot on I had a go at our own keeper for his sending off on Saturday for calling the linesman a dick which was totally unacceptable and just plain stupid .
Players squealing like little girls after every tackle is embarrassing and the only folk that can stop that is the club's themselves.
On a side issue and one that cracks me up does the referee ask the linesman for assistance before the game or does he say leave the decisions to me as Imo most of them do nothing and indeed don't help the referee as he can't see every thing yet a linesman will see something yet would interact with the referee

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Guest Moomintroll
I had said something similar before the all the nonsense on here broke out .
I think good refs can manage a game and let it flow but obviously I have never sat with a referees supervisor so don't know if they get marked down for that .
I remember certain games utd v arsenal even some Celtic v rangers games where the players would be obviously hyped up and the ref would keep things on a lid for the 1st 10-15 mins then the football would break out and there was no need for a flurry of early bookings to me that was just great man management of the game .
Not every tackle is a booking and not every booking is a red card .
On the issue of player discipline your absolutely spot on I had a go at our own keeper for his sending off on Saturday for calling the linesman a dick which was totally unacceptable and just plain stupid .
Players squealing like little girls after every tackle is embarrassing and the only folk that can stop that is the club's themselves.
On a side issue and one that cracks me up does the referee ask the linesman for assistance before the game or does he say leave the decisions to me as Imo most of them do nothing and indeed don't help the referee as he can't see every thing yet a linesman will see something yet would interact with the referee
I can only go on my experience but I knew a few Grade 1 referees who would basically tell their linesman they are there for corners and throw ins only, no idea if it's still the case but for me assistant refs must see things that they aren't bringing to the attention of the ref. Whether it's because they are hiding or because that attitude still persists I have no way of knowing.
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I had said something similar before the all the nonsense on here broke out .
I think good refs can manage a game and let it flow but obviously I have never sat with a referees supervisor so don't know if they get marked down for that .
I remember certain games utd v arsenal even some Celtic v rangers games where the players would be obviously hyped up and the ref would keep things on a lid for the 1st 10-15 mins then the football would break out and there was no need for a flurry of early bookings to me that was just great man management of the game .
Not every tackle is a booking and not every booking is a red card .
On the issue of player discipline your absolutely spot on I had a go at our own keeper for his sending off on Saturday for calling the linesman a dick which was totally unacceptable and just plain stupid .
Players squealing like little girls after every tackle is embarrassing and the only folk that can stop that is the club's themselves.
On a side issue and one that cracks me up does the referee ask the linesman for assistance before the game or does he say leave the decisions to me as Imo most of them do nothing and indeed don't help the referee as he can't see every thing yet a linesman will see something yet would interact with the referee
One final question m8
The world cup in the summer was fantastic barely a booking or a red card during the whole tournament and probably the low card count in many many years .
The laws of the game don't really change but did the interpretation of the laws change for just that tournament or was it simply more flexibility given to the refs to administer there interpretation of the laws of the game ?
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Agree with GOTW and Moomintroll. Players and coaches have been moaning for years that the refs have took all contact out the sport but the truth is it was them. I continue to shout every week that not every coming together of players is a foul and not every foul should result in a card. However the reaction of players and management leaves a lot to be desired. I include my team in that comment as well. The days of a good "old fashioned junior" game of football are a rarity now

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One final question m8
The world cup in the summer was fantastic barely a booking or a red card during the whole tournament and probably the low card count in many many years .
The laws of the game don't really change but did the interpretation of the laws change for just that tournament or was it simply more flexibility given to the refs to administer there interpretation of the laws of the game ?
Genuinely no official idea but from my perspective it definitely looked like the referees had been told to go in with a lighter approach, remarked on it several times through the tournament as it seemed to be a completely different game management style to the last few finals. Only the obvious, nasty fouls were resulting in cautions, the run of the mill trips and mistimed tackles were not in the majority of games.
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I can only go on my experience but I knew a few Grade 1 referees who would basically tell their linesman they are there for corners and throw ins only, no idea if it's still the case but for me assistant refs must see things that they aren't bringing to the attention of the ref. Whether it's because they are hiding or because that attitude still persists I have no way of knowing.
That's probably something fans need to understand as I think the linesmen take far more abuse than the ref as he is online only yards from the fans and if the ref has told him not to get involved then no point giving the linesman stick for basically doing as has been told pre match .
I would love to see them more involved tho as it can only be beneficial to the ref if he has two folk helping him especially if he has missed an incident or is not 100% sure .
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That's probably something fans need to understand as I think the linesmen take far more abuse than the ref as he is online only yards from the fans and if the ref has told him not to get involved then no point giving the linesman stick for basically doing as has been told pre match .
I would love to see them more involved tho as it can only be beneficial to the ref if he has two folk helping him especially if he has missed an incident or is not 100% sure .
I think refs unfortunately in the main take the approach that it's all about them and ignore their assistants. This season I have seen them overrule throw in decisions where the assistant has had a clear view of who had the final touch before the ball went out of play. However I have also heard assistants state they have been instructed before hand just to deal with throw ins and offsides , and to ignore everything else. Which again is poor. I would also say that as a fan who didn't play at a serious level due to limited ability, I am however familiar with the laws of the game and like most supporters want to see consistency applied to all decision making. Unfortunately our frustrations manifest themselves at the regular inconsistencies applied on a weekly basis and this is the current experience at SPFL recently which is also well documented.
And finally love them or loathe them we can't have a game without them.
T
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I think refs unfortunately in the main take the approach that it's all about them and ignore their assistants. This season I have seen them overrule throw in decisions where the assistant has had a clear view of who had the final touch before the ball went out of play. However I have also heard assistants state they have been instructed before hand just to deal with throw ins and offsides , and to ignore everything else. Which again is poor. I would also say that as a fan who didn't play at a serious level due to limited ability, I am however familiar with the laws of the game and like most supporters want to see consistency applied to all decision making. Unfortunately our frustrations manifest themselves at the regular inconsistencies applied on a weekly basis and this is the current experience at SPFL recently which is also well documented.
And finally love them or loathe them we can't have a game without them.
T
Absolutely spot on T
It's the inconsistencies that get fans backs up and if the linesmen would assist properly then it's more likely that we would see standards improve .
It's great to read the replys of moonim as since he has been a referee you get a better understanding of the how's and the why's involved in the decision making .
Do you think that the SJFA should post up the refs reports after they have made there decision on a fine or suspension that way fans can read for themselves why the ref took that decision rather than us just using guesswork to why a decision has been made .
I believe we should have accountability at all levels of the game folk will say clubs can see the report but fans are just as an important ingredient of the game as much as anyone else probably more so as without them your club die or virtually just become a glorified amateur side .
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2 hours ago, griffiti on the wall said:

Not a meltdown your just a bore with nothing to say
So why not listen to the previous poster and see what he has got to say as unlike every little committee monkey on here
This guy has actually been a referee and he can tell us why standards as he agreed have fallen ?

Don’t confuse the fact that I work and don’t have all day to rant at fellow posters for having nothing to say.

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It’s utterly mental the amount of abuse the stand-side linesman takes from fans at Meadow Park for incidents that not only happen in the other half but in the opposite side of the pitch.

The linesman on Saturday was subject to a lot of abuse due to the referee making a lot of incorrect decisions.

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It’s utterly mental the amount of abuse the stand-side linesman takes from fans at Meadow Park for incidents that not only happen in the other half but in the opposite side of the pitch.

The linesman on Saturday was subject to a lot of abuse due to the referee making a lot of incorrect decisions.
Agreed Stuart and fans are literally just yards from him and he gets slaughtered most weeks but the referee is not helping him if he gets told pre match not to get involved.
Would be great to hear a linesman's view on it
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Spoiler

 

What seems to be largely absent from any discussion about referees is a solution to the problem from those who are adamant that officials aren't up to scratch. You can have the most in depth knowledge of the rules of the game, but that alone will not make you a good referee without the required communication skill and personality to deliver those rules.

Over thirty years ago, (36 as it goes,) a very well known referee had to come into the shop I worked in as part of his 'proper job'. Without doubt, this man was one of the most arrogant individuals I have ever had the misfortune to meet, but to the farts in a suit, he got decisions 'right' and so was fawned over as an example to follow as a referee, even as an appalling communicator.

You will only get better referees when there is a culture  of encouragement to improve, rather than the threat of demotion simply because, in the eyes of an assessor, he got a few things wrong. Most people would say experience makes you better at what you are doing and that encouragement to improve works far better than  negativity. You will never get the latter from the bloke who can only see things from his own team's viewpoint, which is why their view is irrelevant.

 

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