Let's Talk Atlantic League

[Sergeant Wilson]

Haven't UEFA already introduced a 3rd level.tournament? It's a pity because you'd be beating TV companies off with a stick for a Scottish/Irish/Scandinavian league. I'd imagine SKY would dump the English football, Super Sunday would be Rangers v Molde followed by Celtic away to Osterunds.

[ftk]

We would be better just having a British league. If the Welsh teams can play in England why not the Scottish?

Uefa wouldnt have a problem with it either now as they have said a Netherlands/ Belgium combined league can go ahead in the future.

[ahemps]

I don't know why Scotland would be invited to an Atlantic league? If Norway, Denmark and Sweden created a Scandinavian league you would have Brondby, Copenhagen, Midtjylland, Malmo, Hammarby, AIK, Rosenborg, Brann, Molde etc. plus whoever else. All these teams are around the same size 'potentially' so it could be a competitive league. They share much more cultural  similarities and the 3 countries together could demand a big tv deal.

Celtic and Rangers would ultimately be bigger than all these teams so why would they want that when they don't need them????

Scotland is in an awkward position if it comes to cross border leagues in that the old firm are too big for smaller countries (Norway, Ireland etc.) to want them and the big countries don't want or need them (England, Netherlands).

[Andy groundhopper]

Sounds ok in principle, but just imagine IF the Old Firm didn't win the Atlantic League, there would be problems ahead. Not a bad idea if it isn't a closed shop situation.

[Stag Nation]

16 hours ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said:

I honestly think every single soccer club in Scotland with investment could win promotion to this league in the same way that Ross County, and Clydebank made their ways up through the Scottish League system with investment. 

 

Are there any "soccer" clubs in Scotland?

[invergowrie arab]

Most of these countries aren't near the Atlantic.

 

[Thistle Scotland Europe]

My proposal for the Atlantic League-

I definitely support the idea of the Atlantic League for Scottish sides.

I definitely agree with the idea.

The reports suggest that the TV rights would be 350 million pounds a year, to be split between 20 club sides.

Split over 20 sides that equal more than 15 million pounds a year of TV cash for each club in the league.

Hopefully there would be money set aside for parachute payments, and compensation to national leagues who have lost their biggest club sides.  

 

Why I support the Atlantic League?

The only way Scottish clubs can grow is if they join a big European trophy that enables the ambitious Scottish sides to earn more TV cash, and sponsorship so they can compete for major European trophies.

15 million pounds a year would put all Scottish clubs in the Atlantic League above the finances of almost any English Championship side. At present hardly any Scottish sides can even compete with an English Championship side on finances. So we lose our best players to English Championship sides.

In an Atlantic League the sides like Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs would be able to buy multi-million-pound players every season. In fact any Scottish side that qualified for the Atlantic League would be able to consider multi-million pound signings.

 

My only proviso with European Super League is when they are only open to the big countries, and are closed shops with no relegation.

So for me, as long as there is open relegation and promotion I am happy with this Atlantic League idea.

 

My own idea would be to have two conferences of 20 with teams from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, Poland, Sweden, Finland, Lithuania, Estonia, The Faroe Islands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Iceland and  Slovakia in the trophy.

If the idea is successful then there could be teams from France, Portugal, the Netherlands, and Belgium invited into an expanded version of the trophy.

EVEN MORE RADCIAL IDEA

How about two or three teams invited into the league from the USA, and Canada?

There was a Canadian side in the European Rugby League set up. So how about three teams from the East Coast of North American. Maybe one team from Canada and two from the USA. How about a team from New York, or New Jersey? It would help soccer develop in the USA.

 

There is no chance of the English allowing Scottish sides into their league.

I am not anti-English.

But I do not want Scottish sides to join the English league, as it would make people think Scotland is part of England.

Also if we had a British League. The annoying thing is it would start being regarded as a continuation of the English League. So all the trophies English sides had won would be counted as forerunners to the British League. And all the trophies the Scottish sides have won would be regarded as non-league cups. So Scottish sides would be starting off with having officially won no trophies. And all the English clubs would be starting off with all the trophies they had won in the English system. It would be really, really annoying.

But I have always supported cross border cups with the English, on top of European and domestic soccer. Like bringing back the Anglo-Scottish Cup. Or like the way that English, Welsh, and Irish have been allowed to have sides in the Scottish Challenge Cup.

But sadly I have come to the conclusion that the English would never allow Scottish, or Irish League sides to take part in their cup trophies, and there is no demand for an Anglo-Scottish Cup. I do not even think the English would allow the Old Firm into their league. It is just gone as an idea. The English are happy with English clubs and the 4 historic Welsh sides to remain in the English League.

So the only way for Scottish sides to join a bigger league is to create a cross border league with other small or medium sized European nations.

 

I would love Scottish sides to grow so they can challenge for European trophies.

My priorities are for Scotland to get far in international tournaments, and for Scotland to attract and develop good players and for the Scottish club sides to do well in Europe. I think an Atlantic League would help this as it would earn more money for Scottish sides, so Scottish sides could compete in Europe to a certain level.

I would expect Glasgow Celtic, Glasgow Rangers, Aberdeen, Dundee United, Heart of Midlothian, and Hibernian to be allowed to represent Scotland in the Atlantic League. But other clubs could get promoted and replace them. 

Thanks. --

[Thistle Scotland Europe]

Atlantic League better than joining English League.

I am not Anti-English. But I do not want the leading Scottish sides to join the English League. It would make everyone think Scotland is part of England, which would be humiliating for Scotland’s national identity.

 

Other reasons against joining English League –

All the trophies the Scottish club sides have won would be degraded to that of a non-league trophy, while all the trophies the English have won would be seen as real national trophies.

Celtic and Rangers might go decades without winning trophies. Look at Leeds United, Newcastle United, Sunderland, and Aston Villa to see how difficult it is for even big English sides to win national trophies.

Celtic and Rangers might go decades without winning trophies, or qualifying for Europe.

The main reason is though that Scottish clubs would not start off in the top tier. They would be forced to start off in the bottom tier. In tier 8. I read of one fool who claimed that Celtic and Rangers should just take a hit and put themselves into the English League at the bottom tier. And then work their way up the systems. That is utter nonsense. What is the point in leaving national titles, and European football behind to spend decades trying to get into the EPL?

So Celtic and Rangers alone could take decades to get into the EPL. Rangers struggled to get out of the Scottish Championship which is about the level of the National League Tier 5 in England.

I think Celtic and Rangers would take 6 years to get into League Two, with the difficulties of adapting to new leagues, and attracting players and fans to non-league. It could take them another 5 years to adapt and get out of the League One League Two system. And then it could take them 10 years to get out of the Championship. It could then take them if lucky 5 years to change themselves in to the being able to challenge for the EPL title. That adds up to 28 years to adapt themselves to EPL challengers if everything goes realistically right for them.

By that time there might be a European Super League, that Celtic and Rangers missed out on so they could play tier 8 of the English League.

Surely it makes more sense for Celtic and Rangers to click their fingers and go straight into the top tier of a European Super League for smaller nation’s club sides?

Bring in Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, and Dundee United into the European Super League system too.  

Then you get fools who say let someone else form the European Super League and join later. That is just pathetic. The Scottish clubs would once again have to start off at the bottom of the pyramid system that is if they would be allowed to join after it had already started.

Surely it makes more sense to join at the start, so that Scottish clubs are in the top division when it is formed.

 

PLUS THE MOST IMPORTANT PROBLEM WITH JOINING THE ENGLISH LEAGUE.

The English DO NOT WANT SCOTTISH SIDES IN THE ENGLISH LEAGUES.

The English are a very patriotic nation and the vast majority of English people have no motivation or interest in having Scottish or Irish sides in their league. They are patriotic in England. And do not see any need to bring Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United or the Irish sides into their league. They have the richest league in the world. Why would they need to bring Scottish and Irish clubs into their league? It is not about turkeys not voting for Christmas. It is the English are patriotic and want English teams in the English Leagues. IT IS UTTER NONSENSE TO THINK ENGLAND WOULD ALLOW SCOTTISH SIDES IN. They do not even want an Anglo Scottish Cup. Why would they wan us inn their league?

It makes far more sense for Scotland to be at the forefront of creating new European Super Leagues where Scotland can be the instigator and get in at the start so they can start in the top division. Rather than joining the English leagues at tier 8. And being forced to wait going for 30 years for a Scottish to even challenge for trophies.

Atlantic League better than joining English League.

I am not Anti-English. But I do not want the leading Scottish sides to join the English League. It would make everyone think Scotland is part of England, which would be humiliating for Scotland’s national identity.

 

Other reasons against joining English League –

All the trophies the Scottish club sides have won would be degraded to that of a non-league trophy, while all the trophies the English have won would be seen as real national trophies.

Celtic and Rangers might go decades without winning trophies. Look at Leeds United, Newcastle United, Sunderland, and Aston Villa to see how difficult it is for even big English sides to win national trophies.

Celtic and Rangers might go decades without winning trophies, or qualifying for Europe.

The main reason is though that Scottish clubs would not start off in the top tier. They would be forced to start off in the bottom tier. In tier 8. I read of one fool who claimed that Celtic and Rangers should just take a hit and put themselves into the English League at the bottom tier. And then work their way up the systems. That is utter nonsense. What is the point in leaving national titles, and European football behind to spend decades trying to get into the EPL?

So Celtic and Rangers alone could take decades to get into the EPL. Rangers struggled to get out of the Scottish Championship which is about the level of the National League Tier 5 in England.

I think Celtic and Rangers would take 6 years to get into League Two, with the difficulties of adapting to new leagues, and attracting players and fans to non-league. It could take them another 5 years to adapt and get out of the League One League Two system. And then it could take them 10 years to get out of the Championship. It could then take them if lucky 5 years to change themselves in to the being able to challenge for the EPL title. That adds up to 28 years to adapt themselves to EPL challengers if everything goes realistically right for them.

By that time there might be a European Super League, that Celtic and Rangers missed out on so they could play tier 8 of the English League.

Surely it makes more sense for Celtic and Rangers to click their fingers and go straight into the top tier of a European Super League for smaller nation’s club sides?

Bring in Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, and Dundee United into the European Super League system too.  

Then you get fools who say let someone else form the European Super League and join later. That is just pathetic. The Scottish clubs would once again have to start off at the bottom of the pyramid system that is if they would be allowed to join after it had already started.

Surely it makes more sense to join at the start, so that Scottish clubs are in the top division when it is formed.

 

PLUS THE MOST IMPORTANT PROBLEM WITH JOINING THE ENGLISH LEAGUE.

The English DO NOT WANT SCOTTISH SIDES IN THE ENGLISH LEAGUES.

The English are a very patriotic nation and the vast majority of English people have no motivation or interest in having Scottish or Irish sides in their league. They are patriotic in England. And do not see any need to bring Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United or the Irish sides into their league. They have the richest league in the world. Why would they need to bring Scottish and Irish clubs into their league? It is not about turkeys not voting for Christmas. It is the English are patriotic and want English teams in the English Leagues. IT IS UTTER NONSENSE TO THINK ENGLAND WOULD ALLOW SCOTTISH SIDES IN. They do not even want an Anglo Scottish Cup. Why would they wan us inn their league?

It makes far more sense for Scotland to be at the forefront of creating new European Super Leagues where Scotland can be the instigator and get in at the start so they can start in the top division. Rather than joining the English leagues at tier 8. And being forced to wait going for 30 years for a Scottish to even challenge for trophies.

[ahemps]

If the old firm leave to whatever league they can get into then the SPFL would be fine as it is. We would have 3 big clubs in Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs but they are all within striking distance of the vast majority of the rest unlike just now where the old firm have the biggest domestic advantage in European football making it impossible to challenge them. We would see several different teams wining the league as it would be genuinely competitive and that would be good enough for most fans.

I don't know what to make of the current the staus quo in football in that almost every league is dominated by the same small amount of teams and whether this is sustainable or not? PSG and Bayern's dominance almost make their leagues pointless yet their leagues continue to be popular. Scotland, Portugal and Holland are proof that decades of dominance by the same 2-3 teams don't kill off the popularity of league football and in fact they are more popular leagues than say Sweden which is a genuinely competitive league.

I like the idea of cross border leagues if it means teams can find their level and we see much more competitive balanced competitions.

[G51]

I don't really see teams leaving their domestic leagues to join the Atlantic League.

What I could see is a major restructuring of European football, with UEFA and FIFA's approval, that means we effectively silo certain European competitions. This is where the Atlantic League might come in.

The Champions League becomes a competition for Big Five Leagues only. As part of this, it expands to look more like an American tournament - the five countries are split into divisions, with five division winners and three "wildcards" with the best record qualifying for the knockout rounds. Some shite like that. CL qualification determined by domestic performance, but the domestic season is drastically reduced to accomodate the expanded European competition.

If that happens, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Northern and Western Europe said "Actually, we don't really fancy travelling to North Macedonia and Kazakhstan as part of European competition, so lets make our own one and follow the new CL format"

I think the push overall is to get more European games and less domestic ones.

[Gus Setsniffer]

On 29/12/2020 at 19:51, Thistle Scotland Europe said:

 

All the trophies the Scottish club sides have won would be degraded to that of a non-league trophy

 

[Gus Setsniffer]

On 29/12/2020 at 19:51, Thistle Scotland Europe said:

 

 

Celtic and Rangers alone could take decades to get into the EPL. 

 

 

 

Only Manchester United & Liverpool are bigger clubs than the ugly sisters, they'd be ripe fruit to Bin Bin Salah Bin, or some tier 2 Jeff Bezos, you think their fans and the nut hugging scottish sports media are bad now,

open all mics    MW810 ...Burnley v Rangers, FM 92-95.. Burnley v Rangers,  DAB....Burnley v Rangers

3 different people shouting ''Chance'' at the same time

 

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Gus Setsniffer

[ahemps]

4 hours ago, Gus Setsniffer said:

Only Manchester United & Liverpool are bigger clubs than the ugly sisters

In what planet are the old firm the 3rd and 4th biggest clubs in the UK? Maybe in the 80's and possibly 90's when they could compete with the big English sides on and off the park but they are miles behind them now. Maybe if you ask a 50yr old English football fan they might argue the old firm are quite big but if you ask a 20yr old the same thing they think of the old firm as championship level clubs.

They really are not that big anymore. I think it was just over 2 years ago that a Sheffield derby had bigger viewing figures than the old firm game when they played on the same day. https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/alan-brazil-rangers-and-celtic-viewing-figures-show-the-old-firm-tv-bubble-is-well-and-truly-burst/ 

Chelsea have won 6 European trophies compared to 2 for the Old Firm. Have 15m followers on twitter, Old firm together is just over 1m. Are able to attract world cup winners to play for them and pay the wages of today's superstars. On what measurement are the old firm bigger than Chelsea?

I define 'bigger' by who would know them outside their own bubble. My granny knew who Mike Tyson was but not Lennox Lewis, that's because Tyson was the bigger name although probably not the better fighter. If you ask kids from Ghana, Thailand or Costa Rica if they know of Chelsea or Celtic, Chelsea would by a long way be far more known to them.

So please tell me how the old firm are bigger than Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs etc.?

 

[Stag Nation]

4 hours ago, Gus Setsniffer said:

Only Manchester United & Liverpool are bigger clubs than the ugly sisters, they'd be ripe fruit to Bin Bin Salah Bin, or some tier 2 Jeff Bezos, you think their fans and the nut hugging scottish sports media are bad now,

open all mics    MW810 ...Burnley v Rangers, FM 92-95.. Burnley v Rangers,  DAB....Burnley v Rangers

3 different people shouting ''Chance'' at the same time

According to the most recent version of the definitive Deloitte Money League, 11 EPL clubs are in the top 30 earners worldwide, from Man United (3rd) down to Palace (30th).

Celtic and Sevco do not feature at all. Big fish, small pond.

https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/sports-business-group/articles/deloitte-football-money-league.html

[Gus Setsniffer]

46 minutes ago, ahemps said:

In what planet are the old firm the 3rd and 4th biggest clubs in the UK? Maybe in the 80's and possibly 90's when they could compete with the big English sides on and off the park but they are miles behind them now. Maybe if you ask a 50yr old English football fan they might argue the old firm are quite big but if you ask a 20yr old the same thing they think of the old firm as championship level clubs.

They really are not that big anymore. I think it was just over 2 years ago that a Sheffield derby had bigger viewing figures than the old firm game when they played on the same day. https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/alan-brazil-rangers-and-celtic-viewing-figures-show-the-old-firm-tv-bubble-is-well-and-truly-burst/ 

Chelsea have won 6 European trophies compared to 2 for the Old Firm. Have 15m followers on twitter, Old firm together is just over 1m. Are able to attract world cup winners to play for them and pay the wages of today's superstars. On what measurement are the old firm bigger than Chelsea?

I define 'bigger' by who would know them outside their own bubble. My granny knew who Mike Tyson was but not Lennox Lewis, that's because Tyson was the bigger name although probably not the better fighter. If you ask kids from Ghana, Thailand or Costa Rica if they know of Chelsea or Celtic, Chelsea would by a long way be far more known to them.

So please tell me how the old firm are bigger than Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs etc.?

 

the question i replied to was it would take the old firm decades to get into the EPL?  so if part of the EPL, on that level footing are they still going to be smaller than Man City & Chelsea who were a couple of no marks from the 70's until corrupt foreigners bought them, do you think Dessie Dermot bought Sellick because he was a fan ? He only bought them cause he thought the old firm to England had legs, the pair of them already have bars and clubs allover the US & some in Australia too, its not difficult to get fair weather fans from abroad once you're in that club, as for asking a 50 year old or a 20 year old, i wouldn't as a 20 year old anything, cause they know f**k all, i already read a post elsewhere from one of that vintage that claimed present day Man Utd would beat any team from the 90's.

as for the link about viewing figures, its never been the draw for sky that their fans would have you believe even in the 90's, although they still have 60,000 & 50,000 in their ground while playing pish diddy teams every other week, how many more would they get if they f**k off down south ? While that huge club Chelsea, still have a capacity of under 41,000, and  Spurs & Arsenal regale us with the time they lost a European Cup Final

Edited January 1, 2021 by Gus Setsniffer

[Gus Setsniffer]

25 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

According to the most recent version of the definitive Deloitte Money League, 11 EPL clubs are in the top 30 earners worldwide, from Man United (3rd) down to Palace (30th).

Celtic and Sevco do not feature at all. Big fish, small pond.

https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/sports-business-group/articles/deloitte-football-money-league.html

so talksport is correct then ? Palace, Burnley, West Brom, are all bigger than anything up here, because its turnover & twitter followers that define a club ?

[Stag Nation]

16 hours ago, Gus Setsniffer said:

so talksport is correct then ? Palace, Burnley, West Brom, are all bigger than anything up here, because its turnover & twitter followers that define a club ?

Who mentioned twitter followers?

The original discussion was about the ability of Scotish clubs to compete with the English, and the most important factor there is financial.  You need to be able to buy, and pay, players of a competitive standard. The cold hard figures suggest that Celtic and Rangers could not.

If they were somehow parachuted into the EPL they would benefit from a bigger TV deal, but that's simply never going to happen.

[ahemps]

16 hours ago, Gus Setsniffer said:

the question i replied to was it would take the old firm decades to get into the EPL?  so if part of the EPL, on that level footing are they still going to be smaller than Man City & Chelsea who were a couple of no marks from the 70's until corrupt foreigners bought them,

This argument gets me, they are not part of the EPL and that is just tough for them. It may be the only reason Southampton can take Celtics best players but that is now the football environment we live in, players are leaving Celtic to join Southampton after a sustained period you have to accept that this is now the footballing order. Corinthians in Brazil claim to be supported by about 20 million people, they produce some of the best players in the world and in the past could have beaten the best of Europe, are they bigger than Real Madrid and Man Utd? No, because of location, it may be tough but it is a huge factor. Burnly being in Lancashire is to their advantage, Celtic in Scotland is a hinder to them. However Celtic can claim to be a higher profile than the likes of Newcastle because among other things they appear in the CL from time to time but that is because they get a free pass at qualifying that big supported clubs like Newcastle, Schalke, Valencia and even AC Milan don't get such an easy time of so being in Scotland has helped them in some regards.

16 hours ago, Gus Setsniffer said:

He only bought them cause he thought the old firm to England had legs, the pair of them already have bars and clubs allover the US & some in Australia too

So what, Scots have moved to these places and have continued to support their team. There is a Real Betis bar in Edinburgh, which means there is likely one in Manchester and London, if Real Betis have one then it's likely so do Bilbao, Atletico, Valencia....... Supporters congregating in a bar or cafe around the world to watch a game isn't unique to the old firm.

16 hours ago, Gus Setsniffer said:

as for the link about viewing figures, its never been the draw for sky that their fans would have you believe even in the 90's, although they still have 60,000 & 50,000 in their ground while playing pish diddy teams every other week, how many more would they get if they f**k off down south ? While that huge club Chelsea, still have a capacity of under 41,000, 

Again the old firm don't fill their stadium every week I saw this response to Police Scotland to a question of attendances for Celtic games

4/08/18 - Celtic v Livingston                                      49,346  
26/08/18 - Celtic v Hamilton                                        35,645 
02/09/18 - Celtic v Rangers                                         56,294  
29/09/18 - Celtic v Aberdeen                                       46,794  
20/10/18 - Celtic v Hibs                                               49,143 
03/11/18 - Celtic v Hearts                                            49,153 
08/12/18 - Celtic v Kilmarnock                                     41,579  
19/12/18 - Celtic v Motherwell                                     32,059  
22/12/18 - Celtic v Dundee                                          36,659

 

Chelsea may only get 43k but there stadium is full every week and they are planning to build a 60k stadium. Spurs and West Ham have just moved to bigger stadiums and are filling them every week, no doubt in mind Chelsea could fill 60k every week.

17 hours ago, Gus Setsniffer said:

Spurs & Arsenal regale us with the time they lost a European Cup Final

This is in recent memory, Arsenal and Spurs are more likely to win a major European trophy than either of the old firm. Celtic won there trophy over 50 years ago now, there is a shelf life as to how long this can be used to say you're a big club. It was huge achievement but does Steau Bucharest and Red Star Belgrades victory in the same competition shows that smaller teams can win cup competitions.

[Andy groundhopper]

Always thought that an Atlantic/European League was  the only way forward for the Scottish clubs - the Old Firm are too big for English League's 1 & 2, in fan numbers alone. Not sure how relegation would work in an Atlantic set up ? Don't want a closed shop situation.

[Dev]

The Old Firm keep the SPFL afloat. Without them the league would shrivel up and the OF know that. This is why they have Scottish football in their control and why it is in a mess.

Maybe the OF should be released to play outside the SPFL but, if that happened, their grip on the SFA must be reduced - and, in my opinion, that could be a good thing for the rest of Scottish football. They have too much influence.