Off The Ball - Is it good?

[VictorOnopko]

11 hours ago, Hendo said:

Cowan really didnt do any of that. He pointed out that the initial investigation had not found evidence of racism, as claimed by Bartley, and asked him to apologise. This is not quite undermining anti racist initiatives. (...)

Defending Bartley is like defending Jimmy Savile because he raised lots of money for charity.

Tam didn't just ask Bartley to apologise - he got on his high horse and demanded a specific, in-person apology from a guy who (we now know) *did* hear racial abuse, using his national BBC radio show as a platform - even though many might think that some sensitivity should maybe be shown to someone who believed he had heard what, in fact, he had heard (otherwise, Tam's stance seems to be "how DARE you make a claim of racism when you haven't proved it and can't be 1000% certain' - you should publicly apologise on my programme). 

When Tam was informed that the racial abuse had taken place, he dribbled out a vague apology which didn't name Bartley.  That makes him a coward and a hypocrite, because it was much, much less than he himself ranted at Bartley for.

If you don't think all this has anything to do with Tam's strong dislike for Eilidh Barbour, I have a bridge to sell you.

As for your second claim/comparison, just wow...

Edited December 16, 2022 by VictorOnopko

[VincentGuerin]

10 hours ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

I do find it quite mad that Eilidh Barbour is happy to date a known love rat and convicted danger to women.

It’s not relevant to the topic at hand, however.

This is typical of the modern view of any person being basically shrunk down to the worst aspects we know about them or the worst thing they've ever done.

Without going all 'But you shag one sheep...' on you, most people walking the streets among us will have done things they are very much not proud of. Some will have righted themselves (usually after being caught), while others will have got away with it. Others will have been caught and suffered severe consequences.

Do you reckon a large chunk of the posters on this site, or indeed of the people you know, aren't 'love rats'? For all the moral posturing on here, I'd bet my arse that this place is full of folk cheating (or have done) on their partners, or with convictions they'd never share with us, or who have got away with something they'd never share on here. That's just life. There'll be plenty of folk on here whose partners are/have cheated on them and they'll (I'll?) have no idea.

The danger to women part was obviously very grim, but life can move on from a low point. I suppose the difference between people Bartley and people who will bring that up anonymously online for the rest of his life is that we know what he's done. Nobody knows what you've done. Or what I've done.

If someone decides she wants to be his partner, then I'd argue your position to query that, as a person who knows neither of them and who will have your own flaws, is a weak one. Stop living on Twitter.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

52 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

This is typical of the modern view of any person being basically shrunk down to the worst aspects we know about them or the worst thing they've ever done.

Without going all 'But you shag one sheep...' on you, most people walking the streets among us will have done things they are very much not proud of. Some will have righted themselves (usually after being caught), while others will have got away with it. Others will have been caught and suffered severe consequences.

Do you reckon a large chunk of the posters on this site, or indeed of the people you know, aren't 'love rats'? For all the moral posturing on here, I'd bet my arse that this place is full of folk cheating (or have done) on their partners, or with convictions they'd never share with us, or who have got away with something they'd never share on here. That's just life. There'll be plenty of folk on here whose partners are/have cheated on them and they'll (I'll?) have no idea.

The danger to women part was obviously very grim, but life can move on from a low point. I suppose the difference between people Bartley and people who will bring that up anonymously online for the rest of his life is that we know what he's done. Nobody knows what you've done. Or what I've done.

If someone decides she wants to be his partner, then I'd argue your position to query that, as a person who knows neither of them and who will have your own flaws, is a weak one. Stop living on Twitter.

edit: have now read this post.

I’ve never been convicted of threatening and alarming females, and I’d imagine the majority of people on this forum would be the same. I wouldn’t particularly want to associate with someone who had been but maybe that’s just me. This wasn’t some young and foolish mistake, he was about 30 at the time. So weird that you’d post an essay in defence of this - makes me wonder what skeletons are in your closet tbh.

Of course my position to query that is a weak one, they’re free to do whatever they want. It’s an anonymous Scottish football forum at the end of the day where the vast majority of posts are completely uninformed. Regardless, it was a throwaway, irrelevant comment that you seem to have taken to heart for whatever reason.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Bonksy+HisChristianParade

[Shandon Par]

Now this matter is settled it will allow Off the Ball to dedicate more time to attacking Eni Aluko and Micah Richards.

[Stylish Kid]

7 minutes ago, Shandon Par said:

Now this matter is settled it will allow Off the Ball to dedicate more time to attacking Eni Aluko and Micah Richards.

Micah Richards is a knob, along with all those other EPL MNF twats 

 

Eni Aluko is a Tory.

 

Fire away 

[Ric]

Ooft..

..this incident has brought out some cracking whataboutery hasn't it? @VincentGuerin has got it spot on, though, nobody is a clean slate but the idea you should not call out cases of bigotry or abuse because the recipients aren't somehow the most perfect of people is fucking stupid. It's such an online debate tactic although the 'tu quoque' fallacy has been in existence long before then.

It seems to be that some people would be OK with Bartley experiencing racism because he deserves it. There is a hint of hypocrisy and no little white privilege being demonstrated here. It's clear that Cowan has at no time in his life encountered racial abuse from a random because he is white. Anyone who has had friends, family members or partners who are non-white, will know that racism, even casual, happens on an almost daily basis. Scotland to an extent is a little better than some places but we are naive to suggest we somehow are not affected by it.

The whole pile on by the "yer da's" on Barbour was a reflection of the misogyny within our society, which is just as prevalent as the bigotry.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

2 minutes ago, Ric said:

 

 

the idea you should not call out cases of bigotry or abuse because the recipients aren't somehow the most perfect of people is fucking stupid. .

Who has said this please Ric?

[paranoid android]

15 hours ago, diegomarahenry said:

this looks like a spat between two people and doesn’t need folk manufacturing stuff because they don’t like Tam Cowan. 

Anything involving racism is a hot topic these days - add that to TC's previous sexist comments, and it's uncomfortable for the BBC.

Sometimes 'comedians' are on the edge of controversy for comedic effect - that was probably the case with his comments about women's football - in this case he jumped on an opportunity to get on his high horse, and it backfired - oops. 

I don't think TC or SC are really bad guys, but Cowan has fucked up a few times - hearing him shouting at a female colleague because she had inadvertently talked over one of his 'jokes' was an uncomfortable listen.

I haven't listened for ages, but will probably listen tomorrow - no such thing as bad publicity. 

[Ric]

2 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Who has said this please Ric?

..you incapable of reading big man?

[Ric]

2 minutes ago, paranoid android said:

Anything involving racism is a hot topic these days - add that to TC's previous sexist comments, and it's uncomfortable for the BBC.

What amazes me is that the BBC will normally tie itself in knots just to keep to their charter. If a mainstream TV person was to actively attack someone on twitter like Cowan has, they'd be immediately suspended. For some reason, BBC Scotland seems to be happy to "just wait and see".

[Alert Mongoose]

Probably been said already but, not withstanding the fact Bartley is on the right side here, I'm a little uncomfortable with someone who has a conviction for threatening an ex partner parading around social media in this way.

Unedifying behaviour from all parties here in my unqualified opinion .

[Alert Mongoose]

9 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Who has said this please Ric?

Probably me in my post above it would appear. I'm not saying he can't call it out but the clamour he is creating jars a little when you look at it for me. Just an opinion though.

[Alert Mongoose]

17 minutes ago, Ric said:

eople would be OK with Bartley experiencing racism

Has he? I thought he just called it out but I've not been following the full story so may have missed it.

ETA having read your previous comments and perceived (or otherwise) injustice with regards to OTB I would question just how objective your opinion is here.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Alert Mongoose

[Alert Mongoose]

1 hour ago, VincentGuerin said:

Stop living on Twitter.

Probably the best advice all round.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

16 minutes ago, Ric said:

..you incapable of reading big man?

Well for the avoidance of doubt I think Bartley is spot on to call out racism, where it has been confirmed.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Bonksy+HisChristianParade

[Ric]

1 minute ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Has he? I thought he just called it out but I've not been following the full story so may have missed it.

I suppose the answer is, go ask people who are "non-white" and ask them of their experiences. Now you very well may identify within that group, that's the beauty of an anonymous Internet. If there wasn't some on here who have actually met me I could be any gender, colour or sexuality because I don't broadcast those.

In fact, although it's some time ago, a few people on here met a previous partner of mine, Eman. She was Scottish but of Pakistani heritage, spoke with a broad Govan accent, but looked Pakistani. On almost a daily basis, she was subjected to racist comments, either overt or casual. That's not a specifically Scottish thing, btw, we experienced it when we went travelling too. To suggest that those who are "non-white" don't face that is naive, and not backed up by the data available.

The same could be said for misogyny, it's endemic in our society as demonstrated by the Barbour situation.

 

What I would say is that, in general, it's a generational thing. Many people have to correct elderly relatives from calling someone a "coloured lad" or describing black people as "them". In many cases that is education, that the world has changed. I think many "younger posters" on here would be surprised the level of bigotry, racism, xenophobia that exists within the older generation. This was demonstrated very clearly within the Brexit debate.

Cowan is most a symptom of that generational hate/ignorance, rather than the cause. The cause, very broadly, is that this section of society seems incapable to accept the world has changed, yet were no doubt calling for change to their world when they were much younger.

[coprolite]

13 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

 

 

So you've put here that defending Bartley's right to carry out his antiracism role unimpeded is the same as defending a mass child rapist.

Starting a sentence with “so” is worse than the behaviour of Bartley, Cowan or Saville.

[Alert Mongoose]

3 minutes ago, Ric said:

The cause, very broadly, is that this section of society seems incapable to accept the world has changed, yet were no doubt calling for change to their world when they were much younger.

That's probably fair.  Humans seem to be programmed to scream louder as they, and their opinions, get more marginalised.  I think that sometimes incidents of racism appearing to get worse might actually be a symptom of it dying out.  I hope it is anyway.

[Ric]

14 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Well for the avoidance of doubt I think Bartley is spot on to call out racism, where it has been confirmed.

The very fact you have to make that point shows it was in doubt in the first place. Very telling...

 

[Highland Capital]

Now granted I haven't heard the entire show but at any point did Cosgrove attempt to call Cowan out?  I find it hard to believe that a man like him would listen to a privileged white man like Cowan demanding a black man apologise for rightly thinking he'd heard racism and not call it out.  I'd like to think he did, but I do notice he hasn't condemned Cowan on Twitter at all and in the clips I did hear he seems to be laughing away.

Edit - I see Cosgrove has said on Twitter that Cowan should apologise but I'm not sure I'm a fan of his 'talk to Tam' retort he's made more than once.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Highland Capital