Trapdoorwatch 2018-19

[Cowden Cowboy]

 

I’m sure dropping into a league to play against some youth sides with zero fans will be a much more attractive proposition.

Still in the SPFL though with the status and benefits that brings - you need to grasp that point. You also have no evidence that loaning young players out is better for their development than them playing regularly in 'Tier 5' - that's just an opinion.

[Muzza81]

1 hour ago, highlandcowden said:

you've not been in that position.

my team has,twice and its an appalling prospect,you try and bring yourself round to the inevitability of it all-hey!lots of new places to visit-but in reality its fucking horrible

While that’s true at the minute in a few years it will hopefully be a cracking league with plenty well established teams and crowds averaging similar to bottom half of League 2. Scottish football needs to eventually open up* the bottom of the SPFL and we are getting close  to that time. 

*I appreciate it is currently an open shop but I mean remove the play off. 

[highlandcowden]

4 hours ago, Muzza81 said:

 Scottish football needs to eventually open up* the bottom of the SPFL and we are getting close  to that time. 

 

im in full agreement with you even though for the last 2 years we've been the beneficiaries of a playoff system skewed to give the league team an advantage.i think part of the dread of dropping out is an awareness of how difficult getting back would be.all the same,f**k cove rangers

[Clyde01]

Still in the SPFL though with the status and benefits that brings - you need to grasp that point. You also have no evidence that loaning young players out is better for their development than them playing regularly in 'Tier 5' - that's just an opinion.

So the likes of Scott McKenna, Callum McGregor, Ryan Christie who are now established internationals would have been better served playing alongside young lads in tier 5 against Brora and Spartans rather than being loaned out to clubs at much higher levels and playing alongside seasoned pros?

Is that the gist of your argument?

I have grasped the point that tier 5 would be under the SPFL but remain to be convinced what ‘status and benefits’ this would actually bring. As far as I can see your status is filler to play against colt sides.

[haufdaft]

How much more exciting will the league be with perhaps 25% of your league games (and season book) against Colt teams?

[JakeSAFC]

Surely they're not trying to push this through again? What a load of absolute bollocks.

[Cowden Cowboy]

So the likes of Scott McKenna, Callum McGregor, Ryan Christie who are now established internationals would have been better served playing alongside young lads in tier 5 against Brora and Spartans rather than being loaned out to clubs at much higher levels and playing alongside seasoned pros?

Is that the gist of your argument?

I have grasped the point that tier 5 would be under the SPFL but remain to be convinced what ‘status and benefits’ this would actually bring. As far as I can see your status is filler to play against colt sides.

No it isn't the gist and that should be obvious - there is no real evidence that one method works better than the other and no bar to players experiencing and benefitting from both

[peternapper]

The whole thing is nothing to do with bringing players through its only being pushed to appease a couple clubs both of which have probably more players from abroad filling their squads than young scots. Have always been against this whole carry on as to me it should be one team in the league per club. How would the entrants from the colt sides be determined would they be able to be promoted & if finishing bottom what would happen. The sooner those behind this take their obsession with this & shove the better.

[Jaggy Snake]

I still don't see how this proposal would even get past the Premiership clubs. Assuming change like this would require first a vote by the Premiership clubs, then a vote by all 42 clubs, that is.

If we assume young players would develop better playing in the fifth tier, which is pure conjecture, why would 8 out of 12 clubs in the top division vote for only 4 other clubs to get that advantage?

Edited November 18, 2018 by Jaggy Snake

[Cowden Cowboy]

I still don't see how this proposal would even get past the Premiership clubs. Assuming change like this would require first a vote by the Premiership clubs, then a vote by all 42 clubs, that is.
If we assume young players would develop better playing in the fifth tier, which is pure conjecture, why would 8 out of 12 clubs in the top division vote for only 4 other clubs to get that advantage?

To allow a 'trial' of the concept

[peternapper]

Let them trial their reserve league (has it started yet) where they could play any players they want. If they get a foothold into the actual league there will be no way to get rid of them when they get tired of putting teams into them. It does not seem all that long ago that we apparently had too many clubs in the country without adding to them with second teams for some.

 

[vikingTON]

Except that it's hardly a minor adjustment: it is creating a new national tier of the pyramid and punting everyone below it down a level on the ostensible premise of the gubbins Colts' involvement. So if the 'trial' proves to be a completely pointless failure - which is the short-odds favourite - then what do they do? Punt the eight other teams back into the Highland and Lowland Leagues?

Not to mention the fact that its creation would leave the HL with 14 teams and presumably a shan, 26-game season with four fewer home games for each team unless the pyramid is also restructured in the north. Anyone who thinks that is a reasonable set of adjustments to allow a trial run to take place is either i) an idiot or ii) utterly deluded by the promise of extra funds to compensate for this shan proposal. 

[craigkillie]

25 minutes ago, virginton said:

Except that it's hardly a minor adjustment: it is creating a new national tier of the pyramid and punting everyone below it down a level on the ostensible premise of the gubbins Colts' involvement. So if the 'trial' proves to be a completely pointless failure - which is the short-odds favourite - then what do they do? Punt the eight other teams back into the Highland and Lowland Leagues?

Not to mention the fact that its creation would leave the HL with 14 teams and presumably a shan, 26-game season with four fewer home games for each team unless the pyramid is also restructured in the north. Anyone who thinks that is a reasonable set of adjustments to allow a trial run to take place is either i) an idiot or ii) utterly deluded by the promise of extra funds to compensate for this shan proposal. 

On top of that, the 12 team "League 3" would have to either play a really short 22-game season, a brutally long 44-game season or an unbalanced 33-game season, none of which seems to make any sense. It's weird that both of the recent Colts proposals have come up with this 12 team division plan - almost as though the youth development coaches at Rangers and Celtic who are pushing it don't have a clue.

[big al]

Do not like this idea at all.

there are so many varying reasons why this is wrong.

heres just 1. 

Lets take the shire. Say they come 5th in LL.  they will know find themselves a further tier down and away from the league 2 level (and league 1) they strive to get back to. And why is this? To accommodate the old firms foreign youngsters. 

[HibeeJibee]

10 hours ago, craigkillie said:

I am not in favour of Colts being in the SPFL (and I'm even less in favour of the term "Colts"). However, there has to be some discussion in Scottish football about which levels people think it is acceptable to have colts at. Nobody seems to moan about Stirling University or Stranraer running B teams at Tier 6, but it becomes an outrage when someone suggests that this should happen at Tier 5.

Fans of Linlithgow Rose and Threave Rovers have to watch their team playing against Colt sides in the league this season, what makes it OK for them but not for BSC Glasgow, Spartans, Cove Rangers etc?

Stirling Uni EOS are a quirk relating to when LL was founded... their presence is by no means popular, even though they've their own ground, and they'd never be elected if they were applying to join now (indeed they never did apply!). Currently no 'B' team can play outside the bottom rung, nor in the "professional" aka licensed tiers. Allowing them in SPFL is massively different.

 

1 hour ago, haufdaft said:

How much more exciting will the league be with perhaps 25% of your league games (and season book) against Colt teams?

It'd be 37% of matches i.e. 4/11.


Any thought of such being a 'trial' is clearly a sham. Once you'd let 'B' teams in they wouldn't be withdrawn. In any case, you could hardly dismantle it and send the actual clubs whence they came, their places in HL & LL would have been filled! On the other hand if you tried to pass it off as "we want an SPFL3 - oh by coincidence lets trial 'B' teams in it"... just omit the 'B' teams in the first place.
 

8 minutes ago, big al said:

Do not like this idea at all.

there are so many varying reasons why this is wrong.

heres just 1. 

Lets take the shire. Say they come 5th in LL.  they will know find themselves a further tier down and away from the league 2 level (and league 1) they strive to get back to. And why is this? To accommodate the old firms foreign youngsters. 

Every non-league side except 8 would be demoted a level and land another rung away from ever reaching what we currently call "league" football... Granted those lucky 8 would tread water but they'd be having to play nationwide, and whilst there'd be more promotion to chase v now they'd be competing with 'B' teams and/or relegated SPFL2 clubs.

Edited November 18, 2018 by HibeeJibee

[GNU_Linux]

Also with the reserve teams in the SOS no one really bats an eyelid as they help make up nunbers in a league with small membership and no probable new teams coming in.

[Clyde01]

To allow a 'trial' of the concept

They got to trial the concept in the Irn Bru cup and it’s been a miserable failure. The colt teams generally get pumped in front of crowds barely into 3 figures. The odd one has progressed via playing other colt sides or clubs that are treating the tournament with the contempt it deserves.

Plenty of people said at the time that allowing them in was setting a dangerous precedent but were ignored or laughed at for suggesting this was the first step in pushing the colts agenda. And yet here we are. . .

If you want to trial a concept surely fucking up the entire pyramid in the hope it might work isn’t the best way. Also plenty of junior sides have moved into the senior ranks and we are now wanting to parachute a bunch of colt sides in above them.

Tell me one positive outcome this proposal will achieve?

[Cowden Cowboy]

They got to trial the concept in the Irn Bru cup and it’s been a miserable failure. The colt teams generally get pumped in front of crowds barely into 3 figures. The odd one has progressed via playing other colt sides or clubs that are treating the tournament with the contempt it deserves.

Plenty of people said at the time that allowing them in was setting a dangerous precedent but were ignored or laughed at for suggesting this was the first step in pushing the colts agenda. And yet here we are. . .

If you want to trial a concept surely fucking up the entire pyramid in the hope it might work isn’t the best way. Also plenty of junior sides have moved into the senior ranks and we are now wanting to parachute a bunch of colt sides in above them.

Tell me one positive outcome this proposal will achieve?

Well they presumably found that the Irn Bru Cup games showed that their youth sides weren't as good as they thought and that one off cup games wouldn't help remedy that - so the idea is to play games v adult players every week to help raise the standards of the youths via more intensive, regular competitive games. Nothing very complex or particularly flawed in that - they think it's worth a try I guess. So that would be the positive outcome they anticipate.

[FairWeatherFan]

21 minutes ago, Clyde01 said:

 

They got to trial the concept in the Irn Bru cup and it’s been a miserable failure. The colt teams generally get pumped in front of crowds barely into 3 figures. The odd one has progressed via playing other colt sides or clubs that are treating the tournament with the contempt it deserves.

Plenty of people said at the time that allowing them in was setting a dangerous precedent but were ignored or laughed at for suggesting this was the first step in pushing the colts agenda. And yet here we are. . .

If you want to trial a concept surely fucking up the entire pyramid in the hope it might work isn’t the best way. Also plenty of junior sides have moved into the senior ranks and we are now wanting to parachute a bunch of colt sides in above them.

Tell me one positive outcome this proposal will achieve?

Unfortunately some of the attendances in the Challenge Cup are quite good compared to Tier 5, and probably quite a bit better compared to what the Reserve League gets. Which is why those SPFL clubs seem to be pushing the Colts idea and the SPFL management are happy enough to entertain it.

[Pompey Blue]

Portsmouth fan here who now lives in Northumberland and is an occasional visitor at Berwick Rangers home games. Hope you don’t mind my comments on this topic. 

We’ve had the same issue in England with the check a trade trophy, where the under 21 sides of premiership teams have been forced upon us, and I do mean forced. Every team in the 3rd and 4th divisions asked their fans what they thought of the idea and EVERY club saw their fans vote no to it to the degree of at least 90% against. So to combat this the EFL basically said we’ll pay you more to allow these teams to play. The result was that 66% of teams voted yes because they saw the pound signs. In the process completely ignoring their own fans views. 

Lots of teams fans including Pompey have organised boycotts and attendances have been very poor but in the end as is usually the case the fans were just brushed aside and ignored. I suspect the same thing will happen in Scotland.