Jump to content

Trapdoorwatch 2018-19


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:


(b) Deaf - would be better option perhaps if referencing 'holding their silence'? Considering the first point without debating it - how many Scottish football fans = majority. Say we take a very rough conservative estimate based on attendances (without doing any research) that say Rangers and Celtic have 50k fans each, Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen say 15,000 each and rest of premier totals say 30,000. Say champ = 35,000. Throw in lg 1 and 2 say 25,000. That's a very conservative 235,000 which leaves aside the rest of Scottish football and all those fans who maybe don't attend too often. Thus you have evidence it seems that about 118,000 fans have expressed a view on this issue. I did see the poll on here where 1,071 fans I think had expressed a view. Can you show us where the other 117,000 or so can be verified or are you maybe paraphrasing?

I see constant negative feedback for these proposals online, this thread being a perfect example of it.  You must see it too because I imagine you look at many of the same outlets I do. Of course we don't have the views of all 118K football fans there in black and white, even you must admit how ridiculously unfeasible that would be, but it's clear to see that a majority are against it.  The only people you can provide who support the proposal are Rangers and Celtic coaches, who are the people proposing the fucking thing.

3 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:


You are very rude

Interesting that you chose to try and dismantle my other post but then yet again completely backed down here from listing the various downsides to loaning out players under the current system. And I don't think I'll be taking lessons in manners from someone who has branded me a Trump supporter, Brexiteer and tried to claim I have an issue with understanding or intelligence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes I see lots of negative feedback on these proposals from a very small section of fans of Scottish football.  You though then just decide to claim that that is the view of the majority of Scottish football fans.  There is a key difference there - you could maybe get a bus and put an ad on the side saying 'Majority of Scottish Football Fans oppose Colts Proposal' - that one with the £350 million a week or whatever for the NHS is probably free.  Not true that the only people I can provide in support are Rangers and Celtic coaches.  That's nonsense.  I can easily list some downsides but choose not to because anyone with any independent thought could do so - however without any real thought at all here are a quick few - difficulty in viewing each match played by loanee, travelling issues for loanee, administrative time for matters in terms of contracts, bonuses, etc, variable standards in terms of facilities, coaching, medical supervision at matches, playing in differing systems or positions from that preferred by lending club, not being selected for team by loanee club, not all players are loaned out so not all benefit,  don't have the advantage of playing with own teammates with settled system v experienced pros, etc

Edited by Cowden Cowboy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

yes I see lots of negative feedback on these proposals from a very small section of fans of Scottish football.  You though then just decide to claim that that is the view of the majority of Scottish football fans.  There is a key difference there - you could maybe get a bus and put an ad on the side saying 'Majority of Scottish Football Fans oppose Colts Proposal' - that one with the £350 million a week or whatever for the NHS is probably free.  I can easily list some downsides but choose not to because anyone with any independent thought could do so - however without any real thought at all here are a quick few - difficulty in viewing each match played by loanee, travelling issues for loanee, administrative time for matters in terms of contracts, bonuses, etc, variable standards in terms of facilities, coaching, medical supervision at matches, playing in differing systems or positions from that preferred by lending club, not being selected for team by loanee club, not all players are loaned out so not all benefit,  don't have the advantage of playing with own teammates with settled system v experienced pros, etc

How much positive feedback do you see?

Let's get stuck into these various downsides then now that you've finally bothered your arse:

1. Difficulty in viewing each match played by the loanee - Do Celtic currently send someone to watch every single match that each of their loanees play? I don't think they do. They attend selected matches to see how they're progressing, but it isn't logical nor feasible even under the current system to watch every single match played by every single loanee.

2. Travelling issues - go on then, cite these apparent travel issues. Never once have I heard of a loanee struggling to make the team because they couldn't get a lift to the game. Complete red herring.

3. Administrative costs - Can you compare the admin costs of loaning out 18 players compared with the admin costs of running an entire second team in the league set up? Surely some of these lads going out on loan will have all or a portion of their wages paid by the loaning club, hence costs are lower overall?

4. Bonuses. Right, I'll concede I don't know the ins and outs here, but is that really a huge stumbling block for anything?  It's obviously clearly sorted under our current system considering we've never known of a dispute.

5. Variable standards of facilities - Doesn't cut it under our current rules as the loanee trains all week at his full-time club and he'd be playing at the same grounds if the Colts were in the league.

6. Coaching - Again, doesn't cut it as he's being coached by his parent club all week.

7. Medical supervision at matches - do the standard physios and doctors not count for on loan players? 

8. Playing in different systems/positions - Surely this is a positive? Playing and learning different game plans and positions would surely only be a good thing?

9. Not being selected - Usually happens when a player isn't of the required standard, parent club should have loaned him out to an appropriate level. A problem easily fixed.

10. Not all players are loaned out - Well some of them aren't good enough for league clubs, they could easily be loaned out to the juniors or the like but parent clubs tend to turn their nose up at that.  It's not the fault of SPFL that Rangers and Celtic hoover up all available talent and don't have squads to give them games.

11. Don't play in a settled team - Well, welcome to football wee man, teams change on an almost weekly basis, get used to it.

 

11 various downsides that aren't particularly big issues and some of them aren't even downsides.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

How much positive feedback do you see?

Let's get stuck into these various downsides then now that you've finally bothered your arse:

1. Difficulty in viewing each match played by the loanee - Do Celtic currently send someone to watch every single match that each of their loanees play? I don't think they do. They attend selected matches to see how they're progressing, but it isn't logical nor feasible even under the current system to watch every single match played by every single loanee.  Thus you illustrate the downside as Celtic would see every match their colts team play

2. Travelling issues - go on then, cite these apparent travel issues. Never once have I heard of a loanee struggling to make the team because they couldn't get a lift to the game. Complete red herring.  They have a settled routine and have to rearrange this then have to travel probably twice a week to another more distant venues - that is an inconvenience for the player that would not arise in Colts situation

3. Administrative costs - Can you compare the admin costs of loaning out 18 players compared with the admin costs of running an entire second team in the league set up? Surely some of these lads going out on loan will have all or a portion of their wages paid by the loaning club, hence costs are lower overall?  Never mentioned admin costs at all

4. Bonuses. Right, I'll concede I don't know the ins and outs here, but is that really a huge stumbling block for anything?  It's obviously clearly sorted under our current system considering we've never known of a dispute.  Didn't say it was a huge issue - downsides is what we are talking about not huge issues

5. Variable standards of facilities - Doesn't cut it under our current rules as the loanee trains all week at his full-time club and he'd be playing at the same grounds if the Colts were in the league.  - But home club facilties will generally be less good each matchday

6. Coaching - Again, doesn't cut it as he's being coached by his parent club all week.  - But gets some influence from different coaches at club he is loaned to

7. Medical supervision at matches - do the standard physios and doctors not count for on loan players?  - Yes but might be much poorer/minimum standard than that available on matchday at their own club

8. Playing in different systems/positions - Surely this is a positive? Playing and learning different game plans and positions would surely only be a good thing? - It would only be so if that was part of the intention behind loan - the parent club might feel it more desirable to embed a certain system that suits them

9. Not being selected - Usually happens when a player isn't of the required standard, parent club should have loaned him out to an appropriate level. A problem easily fixed.  - No they loan him out in expectation he will play and will benefit from games

10. Not all players are loaned out - Well some of them aren't good enough for league clubs, they could easily be loaned out to the juniors or the like but parent clubs tend to turn their nose up at that.  It's not the fault of SPFL that Rangers and Celtic hoover up all available talent and don't have squads to give them games. _ no not easily loaned out to juniors as some of the downsides above would be even more marked. 

11. Don't play in a settled team - Well, welcome to football wee man, teams change on an almost weekly basis, get used to it.  - Again didn't say that - it was settled system with their regular teammates

 

11 various downsides that aren't particularly big issues and some of them aren't even downsides.  - to you they are not but cumulatively they are to the parent clubs

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How much positive feedback do you see?
Let's get stuck into these various downsides then now that you've finally bothered your arse:
1. Difficulty in viewing each match played by the loanee - Do Celtic currently send someone to watch every single match that each of their loanees play? I don't think they do. They attend selected matches to see how they're progressing, but it isn't logical nor feasible even under the current system to watch every single match played by every single loanee.
2. Travelling issues - go on then, cite these apparent travel issues. Never once have I heard of a loanee struggling to make the team because they couldn't get a lift to the game. Complete red herring.
3. Administrative costs - Can you compare the admin costs of loaning out 18 players compared with the admin costs of running an entire second team in the league set up? Surely some of these lads going out on loan will have all or a portion of their wages paid by the loaning club, hence costs are lower overall?
4. Bonuses. Right, I'll concede I don't know the ins and outs here, but is that really a huge stumbling block for anything?  It's obviously clearly sorted under our current system considering we've never known of a dispute.
5. Variable standards of facilities - Doesn't cut it under our current rules as the loanee trains all week at his full-time club and he'd be playing at the same grounds if the Colts were in the league.
6. Coaching - Again, doesn't cut it as he's being coached by his parent club all week.
7. Medical supervision at matches - do the standard physios and doctors not count for on loan players? 
8. Playing in different systems/positions - Surely this is a positive? Playing and learning different game plans and positions would surely only be a good thing?
9. Not being selected - Usually happens when a player isn't of the required standard, parent club should have loaned him out to an appropriate level. A problem easily fixed.
10. Not all players are loaned out - Well some of them aren't good enough for league clubs, they could easily be loaned out to the juniors or the like but parent clubs tend to turn their nose up at that.  It's not the fault of SPFL that Rangers and Celtic hoover up all available talent and don't have squads to give them games.
11. Don't play in a settled team - Well, welcome to football wee man, teams change on an almost weekly basis, get used to it.
 
11 various downsides that aren't particularly big issues and some of them aren't even downsides.  
The very definition of TELT. Great stuff.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is playing in a boys team against absolute cloggers from tier 5 going to develop anything. Will getting battered off 11 fisherman have them strolling into premiership first teams? If anything they will learn to play the kick and rush hoof ball that is prevalent at this level rather than any type of proper football.

Surely playing against the other top players from their age range alongside some experienced pros in the reserve league or going on loan to play alongside and learn from pros at a higher level than tier 5 is a much better system.

The reserve league has hardly been given a chance to make any judgement on its success but plenty of former players talk positively about the experiences they gained playing in the previous incarnation of this.

I’m not sure why you seem to think there is any merit in debating this. It’s clearly a shite idea, being driven by the old firm, with no regard for the impact on part time football or anything outside their own agendas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is playing in a boys team against absolute cloggers from tier 5 going to develop anything. Will getting battered off 11 fisherman have them strolling into premiership first teams? If anything they will learn to play the kick and rush hoof ball that is prevalent at this level rather than any type of proper football.

Surely playing against the other top players from their age range alongside some experienced pros in the reserve league or going on loan to play alongside and learn from pros at a higher level than tier 5 is a much better system.

The reserve league has hardly been given a chance to make any judgement on its success but plenty of former players talk positively about the experiences they gained playing in the previous incarnation of this.

I’m not sure why you seem to think there is any merit in debating this. It’s clearly a shite idea, being driven by the old firm, with no regard for the impact on part time football or anything outside their own agendas.

There is merit in debating this as it seems to be being proposed - but hey fine let's not debate and let the clubs get on with considering it or any variants.
Link to comment
Share on other sites


There is merit in debating this as it seems to be being proposed - but hey fine let's not debate and let the clubs get on with considering it or any variants.


Let’s try a different tact here.

If Cowdenbeath were to finish bottom and Kelty beat them in the play off. Would you be happy watching your team play in this league?

Cowdenbeath
Cove rangers
Fraserburgh
Brora rangers
Forres mechanics
East Kilbride
Spartans
BSC Glasgow
Rangers colts
Celtic colts
Hearts colts
Hibs colts
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Clyde01 said:

 


Let’s try a different tact here.

If Cowdenbeath were to finish bottom and Kelty beat them in the play off. Would you be happy watching your team play in this league?

Cowdenbeath
Cove rangers
Fraserburgh
Brora rangers
Forres mechanics
East Kilbride
Spartans
BSC Glasgow
Rangers colts
Celtic colts
Hearts colts
Hibs colts

 

Would imagine Cowdenbeath would happily buy into this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Clyde01 said:

 


Let’s try a different tact here.

If Cowdenbeath were to finish bottom and Kelty beat them in the play off. Would you be happy watching your team play in this league?

Cowdenbeath
Cove rangers
Fraserburgh
Brora rangers
Forres mechanics
East Kilbride
Spartans
BSC Glasgow
Rangers colts
Celtic colts
Hearts colts
Hibs colts

 

It's not like the Lowland League would be much better from a Cowdenbeath point of view.

Bonnyrigg Rose***
BSC Glasgow
Civil Service Strollers
Cowdenbeath
Cumbernauld Colts
Dalbeattie Star
East Kilbride
East Stirlingshire
Edinburgh University
Edusport Academy
Gala Fairydean Rovers
Gretna 2008
Linlithgow Rose***
Spartans
Stirling University
Vale of Leithen
 

 

*** Took Bonnyrigg & Linlithgow as getting promoted from the EoS and selected to replace Selkirk

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



Let’s try a different tact here.

If Cowdenbeath were to finish bottom and Kelty beat them in the play off. Would you be happy watching your team play in this league?

Cowdenbeath
Cove rangers
Fraserburgh
Brora rangers
Forres mechanics
East Kilbride
Spartans
BSC Glasgow
Rangers colts
Celtic colts
Hearts colts
Hibs colts

If it's tack you mean rather than tact - I would not be happy in the first place at losing in play off and being relegated but if that is the League my club ended up in I would support them the same as I always have. Same answer applies to Lowland League or if it came to it East of Scotland League.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's not like the Lowland League would be much better from a Cowdenbeath point of view.

Bonnyrigg Rose***
BSC Glasgow
Civil Service Strollers
Cowdenbeath
Cumbernauld Colts
Dalbeattie Star
East Kilbride
East Stirlingshire
Edinburgh University
Edusport Academy
Gala Fairydean Rovers
Gretna 2008
Linlithgow Rose***
Spartans
Stirling University
Vale of Leithen
 

 

*** Took Bonnyrigg & Linlithgow as getting promoted from the EoS and selected to replace Selkirk

 

To be fair, I can see the Lowland League improving greatly within a few years with top (ex-)juniors coming through.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Marten said:

To be fair, I can see the Lowland League improving greatly within a few years with top (ex-)juniors coming through.

It has already improved quite a bit from what it started as. But for the Juniors to prove their reputation true its still going to take years to filter through.

Then you're also looking for the off field standing to match improvements off the field, so increased sponsorships etc.

Fingers crossed the HL/LL champion wins the SPFL playoff this season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A point I haven't seen made yet as far as I can see.  This is clearly an attempt to make their be more Old Firm matches as well as giving youngsters a platform to test themselves against a different type of player.  However....

A quick Google brings up this from 2013 -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-22483405

Similar happened in 2014 -

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/fans-arrested-after-trouble-breaks-3473114

The Glasgow Cup final last season had to be played behind closed doors to avoid trouble. 

Let's not give these idiots another chance to cause bother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As mentioned earlier they come out with proposals but don't give any real detail to be discussed. As have always said hope it never gets off the ground but was wondering when they would play matches, would it be 3pm kick off on a Saturday at clubs dedicated ground as would be reasonable for part time teams, obviously the down side of that would be if their was any interest in going to these games it could well take folk away from other clubs games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the biggest arguments the OF fans who back this always seem to put forward to support the idea is it would help out the small teams as the colts would bring in a good attendance for the home team. Made up of fans who can’t get to the big teams games but there is zero evidence to back this up and the challenge cup suggests the opposite is true, with no support to watch the colt teams and the home support generally drops as a protest or just no interest in playing kids.

 

I highly doubt playing against bigger stronger cloggers will improve the skill or control of a youngster as they’ll be halved by the first clogger they go round. Far better to play against other youngsters and work on technique something our players have lacked for decades.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...