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Nipper Salmond

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16 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

I presume all people who came on here to demonize him will be offering their apologies?

Thats certainly what happened when OJ was vindicated in court..

It sure showed those wrongful accusers what a mistake they'd made...

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11 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

As someone who had to share a double bed on a stag do with an 18 stone bloke who looks like Gentle Ben, no;  no it doesn't.

As R W Service put it in the risque Eskimo Nell, 'Have you ever been in the great unknown with a cock in your hand that wasn't yer own'

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3 minutes ago, The DA said:

I didn't invent the 'not proven' verdict.  If it meant the same as 'not guilty', it wouldn't need to exist.

Right. But the general consensus seems to be that when somebody is given a "not proven" verdict. It means they're guilty without proof. But never innocent without proof. Despite the burden of proof being on the prosecutor, not the defendant.

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13 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

People on this thread talking as if allegations of sexual misconduct are guaranteed to sink political careers when the literal Donald Trump is sitting in the White House. 

The SNP aren't the GOP 

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36 minutes ago, Thane of Cawdor said:

Sensitive pronoun use. Typical of the gallantry on this site.

"Their" seemed appropriate

It would be presumptive to assume gender but it would also be risky to rule out multiple personality disorder at this stage.

 

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1 minute ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

"Their" seemed appropriate

It would be presumptive to assume gender but it would also be risky to rule out multiple personality disorder at this stage.

 

Or possibly one of the CBD liquid spambots got programmed to be in heads gone mode before it starts linking to whatever website.  

Edited by carpetmonster

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5 minutes ago, The DA said:

I didn't invent the 'not proven' verdict.  If it meant the same as 'not guilty', it wouldn't need to exist.

I think a loose definition of Not Proven is that the Prosecution fails to provide sufficient evidence to convict but there is doubt so a not guilty also cannot be issued.

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5 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

The only people who can answer why a not proven instead of not guilty verdict is delivered are the jurors on the specific case. 

Agreed. 

The judge is supposed to instruct the jury on when a 'not proven' verdict would be appropriate.  But the study at https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-jury-research-fingings-large-mock-jury-study-2/pages/8/ suggests that the public doesn't understand the verdict very well and often uses it as a cop-out.  Hence 'not guilty but don't do it again'.

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On 18/03/2020 at 23:33, The_Kincardine said:

I am not convinced that what he did makes him a criminal even if he's an utter sleazebag.

I'm getting a bit bored always being right on these Politics threads.  Still, entertaining to see some of the diddies finally catching up with me 

2 hours ago, Antlion said:

ETA: the Kincardine will be crying into his union flag that yet another crackpot right-wing loyalist has failed to adopt “natter”.

Unlike the groupthink drones on here I have no interest in my idiolect becoming normative.  I'll choose my own words, thanks, and make one or two up if there isn't a suitable alternative.

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7 minutes ago, The DA said:

Agreed. 

The judge is supposed to instruct the jury on when a 'not proven' verdict would be appropriate.  But the study at https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-jury-research-fingings-large-mock-jury-study-2/pages/8/ suggests that the public doesn't understand the verdict very well and often uses it as a cop-out.  Hence 'not guilty but don't do it again'.

From that piece - Related to this, jurors choosing the not proven verdict tended to base their decision on a belief that that the evidence did not prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, or on the difficulty in choosing between two competing accounts.

Apologies for font - it may well have been in the NP verdict there was literally no evidence outside of the two parties' stories. It's why the verdict is hugely overrepresented in sexual cases.  'We think he did it but can't prove that' and 'we don't think he did it but can't prove that' can be equally as viable. 

Edited by carpetmonster

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Thats certainly what happened when OJ was vindicated in court..
It sure showed those wrongful accusers what a mistake they'd made...
So what do you suggest? A man gets accused of various crimes, goes to court and is found innocent. Is the legal system which basis our civilisation a joke? Or do we have to accept that many people were putting the boot into an innocent man?

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I didn't invent the 'not proven' verdict.  If it meant the same as 'not guilty', it wouldn't need to exist.
Legally, it means exactly the same as "not guilty". That's a fact.

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Can't be arsed reading through this thread sheet the dramatic news.

Two questions:

What is the p&b consensus on this? How are posters on general reacting?


And what are the details of the division within the snp? Is there a left v right thing going on or is it simply personalities? Old guard v new lot? Kent mccaskill calling for resignations seems like he's throwing petrol on it.

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6 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:
30 minutes ago, Bairn Necessities said:
Thats certainly what happened when OJ was vindicated in court..
It sure showed those wrongful accusers what a mistake they'd made...

So what do you suggest? A man gets accused of various crimes, goes to court and is found innocent. Is the legal system which basis our civilisation a joke? Or do we have to accept that many people were putting the boot into an innocent man?

I suggest people read through the evidence that wasn't in dispute and come to their conclusions about what kind of man Salmond is.

There's no need to even decide whether the prosecution's case is proven. His own defence has admitted many horrific aspects of his behaviour. 

It doesn't need to be criminal to be fucking diabolical. 

Edited by Bairn Necessities

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4 minutes ago, Bairn Necessities said:

I suggest people read through the evidence that wasn't in dispute and come to their conclusions about what kind of man Salmond is.

There's no need to even decide whether the prosecution's case is proven. His own defence has admitted many horrific aspects of his behaviour. 

It doesn't need to be criminal to be fucking diabolical. 

The problem with this post is that you've no where to go after 'horrific' and 'diabolical' and, whatever you say of Salmond, his acts were neither of those.

The jury declared it non criminal - which is about right - and the court of public opinion declared it unacceptable and creepy - which is also about right.

I'd say it's a pretty fair outcome all round.

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2 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Can't be arsed reading through this thread sheet the dramatic news.

Two questions:

What is the p&b consensus on this? How are posters on general reacting?


And what are the details of the division within the snp? Is there a left v right thing going on or is it simply personalities? Old guard v new lot? Kent mccaskill calling for resignations seems like he's throwing petrol on it.

I'm happy. I said from the start that I would wait for the verdict rather than just make my mind up based on my own biases.

Always liked Salmond although this tailed off due to his ego getting the better of him in recent years. Without doubt he's did more than anyone else for the cause of Scottish independence in my lifetime and I much prefer him to the current SNP leader. I'm certainly very interested in hearing his own take on events.

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3 hours ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

Not guilty? Aye right!

The country could have saved itself all the trouble and cost of a weeks long trial with witnesses, evidence, cross-examination etc - and just asked you to decide. 

Edited by Pet Jeden

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3 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

The problem with this post is that you've no where to go after 'horrific' and 'diabolical' and, whatever you say of Salmond, his acts were neither of those.

The jury declared it non criminal - which is about right - and the court of public opinion declared it unacceptable and creepy - which is also about right.

I'd say it's a pretty fair outcome all round.

I'm sorry, we clearly just have different standards. 

If my daughter had come home to me and told me a man she worked for had stroked her face as she slept in a taxi to wake her up,against her wishes, I'd kill him. Or he decided she needed his sleepy cuddles, again against her will. The fact he then apologised the next day wouldn't cut it.

Edited by Bairn Necessities

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2 minutes ago, Bairn Necessities said:

If my daughter had come home to me and told me a man she worked for had stroked her face as she slept in a taxi to wake her up,against her wishes, I'd kill him.

What if he'd kicked her up the arse

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