Nipper Salmond

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

1 hour ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

So if, for instance, we found out that due to the economic catastrophe that is the coronavirus outbreak there were knock on effects that meant Scotland would be entirely unable to function to, at least, its current abilities in terms of the welfare state, wages, NHS and education as an Independent state you would still be for Independence even tho' it would be to the detriment of the people who live and work there?

No country is going to be able to do that.  Including the UK.  And Scotland will still perform worse in almost all areas than all the small, independent, countries around us, despite having an abundance of natural resources.  The argument doesn't change, it's just put on hold.

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

1 hour ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

 

The logic is that Scottish independence isn’t something that should be strived for in and of itself, rather it’s something that should be strived for as a means to improve Scotland and the lives of its people.
 

 

Well of course, that's always been the case.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

1 hour ago, strichener said:

How so?

^Establishment Puppet Found

[AsimButtHitsASix]

47 minutes ago, Carnoustie Young Guvnor said:

No country is going to be able to do that.  Including the UK.  And Scotland will still perform worse in almost all areas than all the small, independent, countries around us, despite having an abundance of natural resources.  The argument doesn't change, it's just put on hold.

I'm not saying the UK wont be affected either. I'm saying if Independence led to a worse standard of living it would be pointless to go for it. Don't you agree?

[SandyCromarty]

2 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

So if, for instance, we found out that due to the economic catastrophe that is the coronavirus outbreak there were knock on effects that meant Scotland would be entirely unable to function to, at least, its current abilities in terms of the welfare state, wages, NHS and education as an Independent state you would still be for Independence even tho' it would be to the detriment of the people who live and work there?

Independence in any form is what we want, Ireland gained theirs when they had absolutely nothing economically, yet the need of the people to have their own independent identity strongly overcame all the difficulties they had to face.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

23 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

Independence in any form is what we want, Ireland gained theirs when they had absolutely nothing economically, yet the need of the people to have their own independent identity strongly overcame all the difficulties they had to face.

That's ridiculous. If we had anything approaching the weird right wing church mandated "freedom" Ireland had for most of the 20th century I'd be raging. I want Independence because it's the best thing for Scotland and the people who live here. Some weird blood and soil independence at all costs nonsense is best left for the mouth breathers who still read Wings Above Scotland.

[SandyCromarty]

12 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

That's ridiculous. If we had anything approaching the weird right wing church mandated "freedom" Ireland had for most of the 20th century I'd be raging. I want Independence because it's the best thing for Scotland and the people who live here. Some weird blood and soil independence at all costs nonsense is best left for the mouth breathers who still read Wings Above Scotland.

By your ranting assertiveness I can surely take it that unlike myself you're not one of the 126,000 members of the SNP, most of which, including yours truly, are totally unaware of the wings over Scotland you refer to.

Calm down, try colouring in books for relaxation.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

16 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

By your ranting assertiveness I can surely take it that unlike myself you're not one of the 126,000 members of the SNP, most of which, including yours truly, are totally unaware of the wings over Scotland you refer to.

Calm down, try colouring in books for relaxation.

I've considered joining the SNP but if I wanted to hang out with a bunch of weird, nationalist transphobes and rape apologists I would just hang out with Sevco fans.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, SandyCromarty said:

Independence in any form is what we want, Ireland gained theirs when they had absolutely nothing economically, yet the need of the people to have their own independent identity strongly overcame all the difficulties they had to face.

And for the next 70 years or so half the population fucked off to England or America as soon as they could. Not sure that's a great example. I'm hoping for far better for Scotland, it's all about the timing and having immediate international recognition by going through the constitutional hurdles.

P.S. Fully paid up member, recently doubled my subs voluntarily.

Edited April 1, 2020 by welshbairn

[Savage Henry]

I've considered joining the SNP but if I wanted to hang out with a bunch of weird, nationalist transphobes and rape apologists I would just hang out with Sevco fans.

The SNP has a handful of folk who see independence as an end in itself. They aren’t at all interested in what comes after it. They’d probably stop their “activism” the moment an independent Scotland came about. If an Independent Scotland returned a right wing Holyrood government, it’d be a backwards move.

That said, those folk just happen to be very active in social media and largely cannot be found in the wild. They tend to be 15 or 55.

[Pet Jeden]

1 hour ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I'm not saying the UK wont be affected either. I'm saying if Independence led to a worse standard of living it would be pointless to go for it. Don't you agree?

No.

Sure, nobody wants to precipitate mass hunger - but that's not going to happen, is it?  Surely to fck the desire for independence must be about more than whether the population will be a wee bit better off financially? That kind of attitude is greedy, small-time, mercenary. And it would lead to a change of view every few years. 70s oil boom - Yay. Freedom!  80s industrial decline, money tight  - stick with England.  90s  Blair ramping up public spending. Scots like that! - good ol' UK.  Noughties  boom - Yay - we love England. 2010+ Austerity - Boo. Let's get out. Brexit - Boo. We hate that. Let us go. What's next decade's unprincipled standpoint? What must the English think of a people who want to stick with them when it suits our pockets, but not when it doesn't? If we left and were better off for a decade but then the economy fell away again, would you want to ask to rejoin the union?

Independence has to be about self-respect, self-confidence, growing up, contentment, taking responsibility, about identity and who decides. Not, will it interfere with my ability to afford next year's holiday in Spain and the latest igadget?

[AsimButtHitsASix]

8 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

No.

Sure, nobody wants to precipitate mass hunger - but that's not going to happen, is it?  Surely to fck the desire for independence must be about more than whether the population will be a wee bit better off financially? That kind of attitude is greedy, small-time, mercenary. And it would lead to a change of view every few years. 70s oil boom - Yay. Freedom!  80s industrial decline, money tight  - stick with England.  90s  Blair ramping up public spending. Scots like that! - good ol' UK.  Noughties  boom - Yay - we love England. 2010+ Austerity - Boo. Let's get out. Brexit - Boo. We hate that. Let us go. What's next decade's unprincipled standpoint? What must the English think of a people who want to stick with them when it suits our pockets, but not when it doesn't? If we left and were better off for a decade but then the economy fell away again, would you want to ask to rejoin the union?

Independence has to be about self-respect, self-confidence, growing up, contentment, taking responsibility, about identity and who decides. Not, will it interfere with my ability to afford next year's holiday in Spain and the latest igadget?

The answer's in the middle. As it stands Independence wont change much for most people but we do get the benefits you suggest. But if that Independence to real cost to the majority, especially those closest to the breadline, I don't see what freedom anyone "gains" from worrying about their mortgage payments or next meal. Of greater worry would be Independence leading to Scotland going further to the right and ending up with Tartan Tories in charge. Weirdos demanding Independence above all no matter what the consequences are just mentalists.

[Pet Jeden]

5 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

The answer's in the middle. As it stands Independence wont change much for most people but we do get the benefits you suggest. But if that Independence to real cost to the majority, especially those closest to the breadline, I don't see what freedom anyone "gains" from worrying about their mortgage payments or next meal. Of greater worry would be Independence leading to Scotland going further to the right and ending up with Tartan Tories in charge. Weirdos demanding Independence above all no matter what the consequences are just mentalists.

Okay Goldilocks. Just you let everybody know the precise millisecond that independence is the right solution.

[sparky88]

50 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

 If an Independent Scotland returned a right wing Holyrood government, it’d be a backwards move.

 

But independence supporters need to be comfortable with the possibility that this might happen, as I think it would pretty soon after independence happens.

[GTG_03]

18 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

But independence supporters need to be comfortable with the possibility that this might happen, as I think it would pretty soon after independence happens.

Theres every chance that an indy Scotland would return a small c conservative government. The whole point of indy is to take steps that are specifically tailored to Scotlands needs, something that we don't currently get as part of the UK.

The current set up just isn't feasible in the long term as the two governments will constantly be at loggerheads and its not in Westminster interests for Scotland to be economically strong.  Rather than the best of both worlds we have ended up with the worst of all worlds, outside the EU and at the mercy of a hard right Tory government. 

[Detournement]

From Craig Murray but it sheds some light on the attempted rape allegation
 

Quote

 

Let us consider the lead accusation, that of attempted rape. I want you honestly to consider whether or not this should have been brought before the court.

Woman H claimed that Salmond attempted to rape her after a small dinner with Alex Salmond, an actor (the publication of whose name the court banned), and Ms Samantha Barber, a company director. Salmond gave evidence that the entire story was completely untrue and the woman had not even been there that evening. Samantha Barber gave evidence that she knows woman H well, had been a guest at her wedding reception, and that woman H had phoned and asked her to attend the dinner with the specific explanation she could not be there herself. Indeed, affirmed Ms Barber, woman H definitely was not there. She had given that firm evidence to the police.

Against that, there was a vague statement by the actor that he believed a fourth person had been present, but he described her hair colour as different to woman H, described her as wearing jeans when woman H said she was wearing a dress, and did not say the woman had her arm in a sling – which it was established woman H’s arm was at that time. One arm in a sling would be pretty debilitating in eating and the sort of detail about a fellow diner at a very small dinner party you would likely remember.

Given the very firm statement from Samantha Barber, her friend, that woman H was definitely not there, a number of lawyers and police officers with whom I have discussed this have all been perplexed that the charge was brought at all, with such a strong witness to rebut it, given that the police were relying on an extremely tentative identification from the actor (who did not appear in court to be cross-examined). The truth is, as the jury found, that woman H was not physically there when she said the incident took place. Woman H had lied. More importantly, the evidence available to the police and prosecutor fiscal showed that there was never any realistic prospect of conviction.

So why was the charge brought?

 

 

[Detournement]

Also this which has been repeated on here.

 

Quote

One consequence of the extreme media bias is that lies which were told by the prosecution are still being repeated as fact. The lie that a policy and/or practice was put into place to prevent women working alone in the evenings with Alex Salmond, was comprehensively demolished by four separate senior civil service witnesses, one of them a prosecution witness. That was never media reported and the lie is still continually repeated.

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

That Craig Murray thinks mi5 would allow publication of a video taken by one of it’s surveillance teams within a period that the train cctv would still be retained and the officer readily identifiable is clear evidence that the man is an absolute moon howler.

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

3 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I'm not saying the UK wont be affected either. I'm saying if Independence led to a worse standard of living it would be pointless to go for it. Don't you agree?

Of course. 

However it's 100% impossible know that this side of independence, and 100% of the evidence indicates that controlling your own economy is inevitably better for public finances and prosperity of the citizenry on a medium to long term basis than allowing somebody else to control it.

I don't think a valid.argument contrary to that exists, or could possibly exist. If it did, all the comparable countries around us wouldn't be much better off than us, which they are, and lots of other countries would be pushing to follow the UK model, which nobody is.

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I've considered joining the SNP but I’ve realised it’s a lot easier to sit on my fat arse doing nothing and posting shite on a football sub-forum than being involved in political activity.

FTFY