Nipper Salmond

[welshbairn]

31 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

They still have non Jury trials in Northern Ireland.

 

9 minutes ago, Bold Rover said:

And in Canada.

And Sweden.

[Tutankhamen]

6 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

 

And Sweden.

North Korea

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

They still have non Jury trials in Northern Ireland.

All summary cases in Scotland are non jury trials.

This idea that trial by jury is a good idea is nonsense, i’ve seen juries find people who were so blindingly obviously guillty, innocent, all because they have no idea what it is they are actually doing. If i was up on trial i’d want a trial with a jury because a good lawyer with a bit of theatrics can sway a jury. In particular in cases where theres no cctv of the crime happening its an absolute lottery as to whether the jury will convict even in the face of overwhelming evidence, some jurors go in with prejudices. If you want a fair trial system whereby the legal matters are tested and those deciding guilt arent swayed easily by QC’s berating witnesses etc then have all solemn cases before a tribunal of judges.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

What I meant was that the jury and defense might be denied important info about the accusers' possible unreliability if people with relevant evidence don't know who they are. But that has to be balanced against the threat of having your life destroyed by making a complaint against a powerful person behaving badly. It's not easy.

All exculpatory evidence is released to the defence, that generally includes the existence of a witnesses criminal history and more info if its relevant. The crown wouldnt knowingly withhold information, say for talking sake if a key witness had previously been found guilty of perjury etc.

[NotThePars]

40 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

All summary cases in Scotland are non jury trials.

This idea that trial by jury is a good idea is nonsense, i’ve seen juries find people who were so blindingly obviously guillty, innocent, all because they have no idea what it is they are actually doing. If i was up on trial i’d want a trial with a jury because a good lawyer with a bit of theatrics can sway a jury. In particular in cases where theres no cctv of the crime happening its an absolute lottery as to whether the jury will convict even in the face of overwhelming evidence, some jurors go in with prejudices. If you want a fair trial system whereby the legal matters are tested and those deciding guilt arent swayed easily by QC’s berating witnesses etc then have all solemn cases before a tribunal of judges.

 

Juries in America get shown a video of a cop shooting a black man who's prone and handcuffed and acquit the cop anyway. Maybe Stalin had a point.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

"Oh yeah. Justice is done. Well, not *actual* justice, but what I wanted to happen. Which is basically the same thing."

edit:

Jez : "No smoke without fire." Mark : "No smoke without fire? Is that what 2000 years of British judicial system comes down to?"

Edited March 9, 2020 by Thistle_do_nicely

[DrewDon]

"Great. The big triple. Uninterested, unavailable, and physically repulsed."

[HeWhoWalksBehindTheRows]

4 hours ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

"Oh yeah. Justice is done. Well, not *actual* justice, but what I wanted to happen. Which is basically the same thing."

edit:

Jez : "No smoke without fire." Mark : "No smoke without fire? Is that what 2000 years of British judicial system comes down to?"

You want to see her, cause she cant see you, not now anyway!

[BawWatchin]

I'm sure the 15 person jury with the 9 feminists and woman judge will be entirely impartial....

[Benjamin_Nevis]

19 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

As with Johnboy, this is just sexist.

This trial is already bringing out the worst in both sides, from the aforementioned sexist pish from Bawheid and ICTjohnboy to absolute losers like Mintermind and Old Pack who will be absolutely delighted at the possibility that Salmond has sexually assaulted 10 women. 

It's basically the political version of old firm fans over the Jim Torbett case. Throw in a deeply unpleasant media and this whole thing is going to be an extremely tawdry affair. 

[Dons_1988]

As with Johnboy, this is just sexist.

It’s obviously been articulated horribly, but I don’t think it’s too huge a leap to say that at least subconsciously, out of a randomly selected population men might be more likely to sympathise with the accused and women with the victim.

It’s certainly not the case that majority women = guilty and I’d potentially argue political leanings would be a bigger factor but I don’t think it should be totally dismissed.

I said quite early on in this thread that these sorts of cases bring out the very worst in everyone.

[welshbairn]

A brief google suggests women jurors are less gender biased against men than men themselves.

https://scholar.utc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1087&context=mps

Edited March 10, 2020 by welshbairn

[Dons_1988]

A brief google suggests women jurors are less gender biased against men than men themselves.

https://scholar.utc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1087&context=mps

Interesting. I stand corrected then.

[the jambo-rocker]

13 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

A brief google suggests women jurors are less gender biased against men than men themselves.

https://scholar.utc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1087&context=mps

It must have been a quick google search. Based on a study of all of 54 students compromised of  middle to upper class backgrounds, and aged 18-22, 15 of which are male.

The two case studys in question were bloody ridiculously weighed anaw. One reading as a woman defending herself and the other a man living as a highwayman with and I quote "His two accomplices were astonished and horrified by his actions" 

I'm not saying you don't have a point, but using this one more weighed and measured study proves f**k all of your point IMO in the grand scheme of things.

[ICTJohnboy]

1 hour ago, the jambo-rocker said:

It must have been a quick google search. Based on a study of all of 54 students compromised of  middle to upper class backgrounds, and aged 18-22, 15 of which are male.

The two case studys in question were bloody ridiculously weighed anaw. One reading as a woman defending herself and the other a man living as a highwayman with and I quote "His two accomplices were astonished and horrified by his actions" 

I'm not saying you don't have a point, but using this one more weighed and measured study proves f**k all of your point IMO in the grand scheme of things.

 

What's the Africa Network For Animal Welfare got to do with this?

[welshbairn]

I did say quick. ;-), just the first thing that popped up for female jury bias. There may well be other studies suggesting the opposite, just saying I don't think we can take it as given that female jurors are automatically biased, or more so than men.

[BawWatchin]

How does the media get away with titles like this?

It's stating it as a fact rather than an allegation. They already have him judged before the judgement. How is that allowed to happen?

[ICTJohnboy]

2 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

How does the media get away with titles like this?

It's stating it as a fact rather than an allegation. They already have him judged before the judgement. How is that allowed to happen?

 

Yep....

So much for a fair trial. This is going to be a trial by the fucking media.

[Old Pack]

This trial is already bringing out the worst in both sides, from the aforementioned sexist pish from Bawheid and ICTjohnboy to absolute losers like Mintermind and Old Pack who will be absolutely delighted at the possibility that Salmond has sexually assaulted 10 women. 

It's basically the political version of old firm fans over the Jim Torbett case. Throw in a deeply unpleasant media and this whole thing is going to be an extremely tawdry affair. 

 

JKK

[the jambo-rocker]

1 hour ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

What's the Africa Network For Animal Welfare got to do with this?

I just like saying it over as well. Bad habit.

47 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I did say quick. ;-), just the first thing that popped up for female jury bias. There may well be other studies suggesting the opposite, just saying I don't think we can take it as given that female jurors are automatically biased, or more so than men.

You did tbf, and it was a go at the study, not yourself.