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Juniors v non-Juniors


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Guest brycey
15 minutes ago, RobM said:

Pyramid has its flaws at the moment but it's going in the right direction.  Time to accept it and work towards making it the best it can be.  My own club's committee are  finding the EoS far more pleasurable to deal with and there is an efficiency there that didn't exist in the Juniors.  Conference set up in  the league has been an imaginative solution to this season and means next season will see placings on success achieved on merit shown this year.

I struggle to see anything in the new era that isn't working towards a better future and nobody at my own club or others I've spoken to elsewhere would want to go back to what we had before.

West will fall behind if they don't engage but I would agree, more should have been done somewhere to ready a place for the clubs over there.

excellent post this sir-positive and too the point- 3 cracking conference leagues -and a feast of games to choose from every weekend-eos gonna b a winner all the way

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10 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Unless you're saying there's never been a season where two or more clubs have chosen not to particiapte in the Junior Cup, does it matter?

It matters if you're suggesting 6 teams didn't participate in 2016/17.  See above.

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Guest brycey
3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

A WoS will happen one way or the other next season. Either via application to a new body or by the West Region turning Senior en-masse.

That will provide the balance the Pyramid needs in the Lowland area.

If our experience in the EoS so far is anything to go by, clubs will quickly forget all about Junior football.

spot on sir

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29 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

i'm assuming on occasion it might be more than one.

Not that it matters but both Glentanar and Islavale declined entry in 2015-16, which is 2, which is more than 1.

That dratted calculator must be playing-up yet again.

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2 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

It matters if you're suggesting 6 teams didn't participate in 2016/17.  See above.

Not entirely sure if this has any relevance.  Why does it matter what happened in 2016/17 now?

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

It matters if you're suggesting 6 teams didn't participate in 2016/17.  See above.

Wikipedia should never be a source! While looking for a reason why it had lowered so much I found out 153+6 who had entered the SFA Scottish Cup and got a 1st round bye. Don't know why that wasn't included for 2016/17 but seemingly was in every other season.

And the reason I was looking for why it was so low in comparison, was because I assumed it would of been a mix of withdrawals and suspensions from the competition.

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Why is is the sjfa junior cup an issue for the eosfl teams? There is a cup we all play in which gives the same outcome (a place in the Scottish for the winner). The Junior Cup isn't entirely relevant to the eosfl.

Having played junior for years, I never really got the draw of the cup, I felt it was a long drawn out distraction from what I was really judged on which was league performance.

Sure a cup tie away at Cumnock or Talbot was great but when it's called off 10 weeks in a row meaning I have to play 3 times a week for 4 weeks to finish the season, it kind of dulled its importance down a bit and made it more of a annoying sideline rather than a fantastic experience. 

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8 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Not to mention new adventures for fans and new grounds to visit and friends/non-friends to make! 

To utilise some results to feed your ever growing narrative about the eosfl being a poor standard is a flawed approach to take, particularly when considering the long term bigger picture. But ultimately one which it appears you are comfortable to take as it is easier for you to comprehend than attempting to appreciate that this is what's best for all Scottish non league football, in the longer term.

I'm loving this transition year, even though Rose have started abysmally. It's a one-off, to be in a conference with such a range of clubs, from a brand-new team driven by hard-working and dedicated people, to grand old names of the Junior game. I'm hoping we get promoted but no biggie if not, the EOS Premier will be every bit as good as the Superleague was, but part of a much stronger set-up. Nobody would want this permanently but this year is unique and I think the vast majority are enjoying it. 

 

7 hours ago, RobM said:

Be wrong within that to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Junior Cup was a good tournament, decent crowds. final felt like an event if your team made it to the final and provided man y good days out for supporters.  Similarly it seems that Junior teams are more ready for the step up than many previously Senior sides.  It is worth asking the question if there's things that were happening at |Junior level that has made it stronger as we move forward.

No desire to go back to the old set-up but there are (a few) aspects I miss.

Loads of people have said it would be great if the Junior Cup was opened up to the whole of non-league Scottish football, but there's fart's chance in hell that the SJFA would do it. That kind of attitude is one of the reasons I was happy for my club to leave.

11 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Why is is the sjfa junior cup an issue for the eosfl teams? There is a cup we all play in which gives the same outcome (a place in the Scottish for the winner). The Junior Cup isn't entirely relevant to the eosfl.

Having played junior for years, I never really got the draw of the cup, I felt it was a long drawn out distraction from what I was really judged on which was league performance.

Sure a cup tie away at Cumnock or Talbot was great but when it's called off 10 weeks in a row meaning I have to play 3 times a week for 4 weeks to finish the season, it kind of dulled its importance down a bit and made it more of a annoying sideline rather than a fantastic experience. 

The Junior Cup final is one of the best days in the calendar for clubs below full time level. The whole town gets involved, you get open-top bus parades and the attendance is often the third highest for a cup final in the country, beating the Challenge Cup final. If you're a club with a chance of making the final it's a very special tournament.

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I was attempting to provide a perspective from a former junior player (12 years) as I never really got the buzz you describe.

I do get that for the 4 or 5 clubs each year with a chance its great but for me it's just doesn't have that draw. In my opinion, now as a coach, if a club I coached were to be licensed and playing in the Scottish I would get excited about it, but would still feel it was a good few trips away and the league was still the bread an butter. It's only my take though, if the west comes over a rebranded all encompassing trophy for non licenced clubs may not be a bad idea..... As long as the sjfa have hee haw to do with running it.....

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As and when the West clubs come on board, the South Challenge Cup will be an acceptable replacement for the time being, all club south of the Tay being involved.

An all encompasing non-league cup probably wont float many boats in the HFL, and in all honestly a fair few North Region clubs would be happy to see the back  of it.

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45 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

As and when the West clubs come on board, the South Challenge Cup will be an acceptable replacement for the time being, all club south of the Tay being involved.

An all encompasing non-league cup probably wont float many boats in the HFL, and in all honestly a fair few North Region clubs would be happy to see the back  of it.

Regionalise the preliminaries?

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For what it’s worth I hope the rest of the Juniors from all areas decide to join the pyramid.  I have no baggage on Juniors or Seniors and all I want to see is good quality competitive football. 

With a pyramid system that is what will eventually happen but will take time.  The introduction of U20’s football to these clubs will also be a benefit as it provides a future pathway for both late developers and those discarded by senior academies to get back into the seniors in much the same way as the English non league structure works.

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9 minutes ago, BS7 said:

Regionalise the preliminaries?

Aye that would have to happen as a minimum I think, plus financial backing once the competition hit national stage, whether that would be last 64 or 32.

I dont think it will even be discussed until such times as all Juniors are on board - or the ones who want to be - and the Pyramid settles down. In the meantime, the South Challenge Cup would be the main non-league trophy.

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59 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

As and when the West clubs come on board, the South Challenge Cup will be an acceptable replacement for the time being, all club south of the Tay being involved.

An all encompasing non-league cup probably wont float many boats in the HFL, and in all honestly a fair few North Region clubs would be happy to see the back  of it.

Generally agree; would the Junior Cup really lose much without the North teams? Culter and Sunnybank have had their moments but really, a South Challenge Cup with the rest of the East and West Juniors would be a better competition.

But the thing about the Junior Cup is its name. People go to the final because they know about it and they've always done it. Whenever Rose made the final lots of shops on the High Street would be decorated and when we won there were thousands on the street for the parade. I very, very much doubt any of that would happen for a thing called the South Challenge Cup, even if it actually becomes a tougher and better competition than the Junior Cup. The name and the history matter a great deal.

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10 hours ago, Blowin In the Wind said:

For what it’s worth I hope the rest of the Juniors from all areas decide to join the pyramid...

They already have decided that at the last AGM and the discussions on pyramid entry with the pyramid working group are in progress.

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What Khufu is wilfully ignoring is what clubs were spending their pennies on last season and this season.

Although improvement of facilities and grounds is not just a "senior" thing (Burnie Man is always quick to point out Blackburn throwing a few bob the way of the youth team and such when they were still in the Juniors) it's clear that some of the teams at the top end of the EoSFL (LTHV, Tynecastle, Leith) were putting money toward getting a license and the costs involved with that. It's a longer term look at things and they'll be expecting an increase in crowds, exposure, sponsorship, prize money so they will be able to compete with the teams moving over from Junior. Now if they had known a year ago that they'd suddenly be swamped with Junior Refugees they might have put that money into a playing squad to ensure they'd be competitive this year but we'll never know.

I'm sure the Junior clubs will, in time, be looking to get their licenses and the costs involved with that but, it seems, most have decided to keep putting the majority of the money into the playing squad: presumably to ensure they'll be in the EoS Premier next year (or as high as possible). Makes sense and good luck to them.

But, right now, we have a league filled with ex-Juniors who are focusing on their first team and last season's EoS who are still looking to improve off the park. Maybe when the Junior clubs start shuttling money toward their £150,000 toilets the EoS clubs, already licensed and less expenses on that front, will snatch a few players back off them and it will even out a bit?

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40 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

What Khufu is wilfully ignoring is what clubs were spending their pennies on last season and this season.

Although improvement of facilities and grounds is not just a "senior" thing (Burnie Man is always quick to point out Blackburn throwing a few bob the way of the youth team and such when they were still in the Juniors) it's clear that some of the teams at the top end of the EoSFL (LTHV, Tynecastle, Leith) were putting money toward getting a license and the costs involved with that. It's a longer term look at things and they'll be expecting an increase in crowds, exposure, sponsorship, prize money so they will be able to compete with the teams moving over from Junior. Now if they had known a year ago that they'd suddenly be swamped with Junior Refugees they might have put that money into a playing squad to ensure they'd be competitive this year but we'll never know.

I'm sure the Junior clubs will, in time, be looking to get their licenses and the costs involved with that but, it seems, most have decided to keep putting the majority of the money into the playing squad: presumably to ensure they'll be in the EoS Premier next year (or as high as possible). Makes sense and good luck to them.

But, right now, we have a league filled with ex-Juniors who are focusing on their first team and last season's EoS who are still looking to improve off the park. Maybe when the Junior clubs start shuttling money toward their £150,000 toilets the EoS clubs, already licensed and less expenses on that front, will snatch a few players back off them and it will even out a bit?

A bit wide of the mark on both counts.

Blackburn United FC (Junior, and now Senior side), don’t fund the youth side, which fall under the Community Club side of things.

Regarding the other former Junior clubs who have moved to EoS, there are plenty who are already doing the work for SFA Licencing and are waiting on the embargo to be lifted to formally begin the process. Many clubs want to be Licenced for next season and guarantee Scottish Cup entry and promotion to the LL if they are in that position.

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Fair fucks. Stand corrected. Had heard different but maybe not applying to as many junior clubs as I heard
It's a line I've heard as well. No idea where it has come from.

I think if you look at the original 13 in particular who applied, before the influx later, they all I'm pretty sure listed licensing as their aim at the time.

I know for example my club (Dunipace) have already started working on it, both with the extensive stadium redevelopment work and the processes side of things. We hope, once the moratorium is lifted, we can hopefully get it in time for next year.

We've also started a new under 20's side at the top of our youth section and brought the entire club, youth and Senior teams, under one umbrella (and constitution) for the first time, as a Senior Club.

I'm pretty sure our near neighbors at Camelon have exactly the same intention re: license given their initial statement and the work already done at Carmuirs which from our two games there I think ticks all the licensing boxes. And they too have started an under 20 side at the head of their youth setup.

Between the two sides we have attracted a lot of excellent local talent into our development squads, both teams already fielding players from there in first team matches.

What is true, certainly from our perspective, is that we are not "throwing money" at the playing squad, as suggested as being the case for the junior movers. We're not that kind of club. Everything we are doing is with the future in mind, for the whole club.

Yes, we have been able to recruit better players than we would have had access to in the bottom tier of the West Junior ranks, but that is because of the vision the club and management team have for the future and players wanting to be part of that. Not to mention the lure of playing against the teams we are now in the company of in a brand new ground.

It's easy to look at what teams are achieving (Ex Junior and Ex EoS) and assume "money" when they are doing well. I think that does a disservice to those at a lot of these clubs, including the players, where planning, vision and hard graft is actually the reason.
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