Strikers coming through

[Binos]

21 hours ago, ArabFC said:

We've literally got a 16yo Scottish striker keeping a 'foreigner' out of our team now.

Stop living in the past grandad.

You've literally got half a team of bang average overpaid foreigners in the team right now and are bottom of the table 

[Binos]

Percentage of foreign players in Scottish Premier league 60%

Croatian league 37%

Danish league 22%

 

[Satoshi]

Scottish football has been pissing on those leagues from a great height for decades.

Additionally, the foreigners figure will (obviously) include other players from the British isles who the spfl couldn't exclude even if they wanted to. Denmark and Croatia don't have that problem.

I imagine Hungary and Poland (much bigger European nations than Scotland) will have a higher domestic player ratio.

Very few of the Croatian internationals actually play in Croatia (not the good ones anyway) and I quite like their policy of trying to quickly export their best talent to other leagues.

But apart from that....

I'm actually a bit surprised at the danish figure, must be more of a backwater than I thought.

[Binos]

3 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Scottish football has been pissing on those leagues from a great height for decades.

Additionally, the foreigners figure will (obviously) include other players from the British isles who the spfl couldn't exclude even if they wanted to. Denmark and Croatia don't have that problem.

I imagine Hungary and Poland (much bigger European nations than Scotland) will have a higher domestic player ratio.

Very few of the Croatian internationals actually play in Croatia (not the good ones anyway) and I quite like their policy of trying to quickly export their best talent to other leagues.

But apart from that....

I'm actually a bit surprised at the danish figure, must be more of a backwater than I thought.

Aye, Aberdeen hearts Motherwell et al do so well in european competition 

[Binos]

3 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Scottish football has been pissing on those leagues from a great height for decades.

Additionally, the foreigners figure will (obviously) include other players from the British isles who the spfl couldn't exclude even if they wanted to. Denmark and Croatia don't have that problem.

I imagine Hungary and Poland (much bigger European nations than Scotland) will have a higher domestic player ratio.

Very few of the Croatian internationals actually play in Croatia (not the good ones anyway) and I quite like their policy of trying to quickly export their best talent to other leagues.

But apart from that....

I'm actually a bit surprised at the danish figure, must be more of a backwater than I thought.

Hungary 43%

Poland 37%

[Satoshi]

Aberdeen alone have far more European trophies than every club in Croatia and Denmark combined.

[Binos]

5 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Aberdeen alone have far more European trophies than every club in Croatia and Denmark combined.

Jesus wept

[Binos]

1 hour ago, Satoshi said:

Aberdeen alone have far more European trophies than every club in Croatia and Denmark combined.

 

2007/8

Last time a non old firm team got to a europa league group stage

[Satoshi]

14 hours ago, Binos said:

Hungary 43%

Poland 37%

Where are you getting these figures from?

Do you have the figure that lists British players as domestic rather than just Scottish?

14 hours ago, Binos said:

Jesus wept

At the record of other similar sized European nations vs Scotland? Quite possibly, we are running riot.

Scottish clubs have 4 European trophies, Croatia and Denmark combined have a generous 1 (the inter city friars cup of 1967).

It's not only a historical thing either, this millennium there have been three Scottish teams reaching European finals, I'm not sure it has ever happened for a Croatian or Danish side.

Thinking their league is better than ours is a pretty wild take, from their side they don't ever compete with us, our domestic league is the impossible dream for them.

Your central thesis that higher domestic player bias in a domestic league means better national team is clearly nonsense. By that logic Saudi Arabia would be terrific. Our young players competing for squad places is what will make them better, it's hardly that the SPFL will have the best calibre foreigners in their anyway.

[Binos]

6 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Where are you getting these figures from?

Do you have the figure that lists British players as domestic rather than just Scottish?

At the record of other similar sized European nations vs Scotland? Quite possibly, we are running riot.

Scottish clubs have 4 European trophies, Croatia and Denmark combined have a generous 1 (the inter city friars cup of 1967).

It's not only a historical thing either, this millennium there have been three Scottish teams reaching European finals, I'm not sure it has ever happened for a Croatian or Danish side.

Thinking their league is better than ours is a pretty wild take, from their side they don't ever compete with us, our domestic league is the impossible dream for them.

Your central thesis that higher domestic player bias in a domestic league means better national team is clearly nonsense. By that logic Saudi Arabia would be terrific. Our young players competing for squad places is what will make them better, it's hardly that the SPFL will have the best calibre foreigners in their anyway.

British players are not domestic 

They are not brought through our youth systems,  they cannot turn out for our country internationally 

Transfermarkt website has all these stats

[Binos]

6 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Where are you getting these figures from?

Do you have the figure that lists British players as domestic rather than just Scottish?

At the record of other similar sized European nations vs Scotland? Quite possibly, we are running riot.

Scottish clubs have 4 European trophies, Croatia and Denmark combined have a generous 1 (the inter city friars cup of 1967).

It's not only a historical thing either, this millennium there have been three Scottish teams reaching European finals, I'm not sure it has ever happened for a Croatian or Danish side.

Thinking their league is better than ours is a pretty wild take, from their side they don't ever compete with us, our domestic league is the impossible dream for them.

Your central thesis that higher domestic player bias in a domestic league means better national team is clearly nonsense. By that logic Saudi Arabia would be terrific. Our young players competing for squad places is what will make them better, it's hardly that the SPFL will have the best calibre foreigners in their anyway.

Is clearly the case 

And clearly Saudi Arabia is an emerging football nation,  as Denmark were in the 60s

Your hearts aberdeens are abject failures,  that's the point 

Who copy the of in buying in 50% at least foreigners even though they're duds

Cypriot teams are outperforming them since the millennium,  just about everyone is

They'd be better developing more players, they would be no worse and solvent 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Binos

[Binos]

In fact dudelange from Luxembourg are outperfming them

[Bing.McCrosby]

22 minutes ago, Binos said:

Is clearly the case 

And clearly Saudi Arabia is an emerging football nation,  as Denmark were in the 60s

Your hearts aberdeens are abject failures,  that's the point 

Who copy the of in buying in 50% at least foreigners even though they're duds

Cypriot teams are outperforming them since the millennium,  just about everyone is

They'd be better developing more players, they would be no worse and solvent 

Mate your clearly correct, what hes trying to do is his normal thing. Reframe the question and win an argument that nobody is even interested in.

Were looking at this as Scotland fans, not Aberdeen or old firm fans or fans of any club.

So in terms of Scotland fans were looking at the national teams. Denmark and Croatia out perform us easily. As you say they have less foreign players in their domestic leagues, so more opportunities for their players.

So the best ones move abroad, creating the next opportunity for a domestic player.

So their national teams thrive.

I was advised to stick him on ignore for the benefit of the forum. Id advise anyone to do the same. Or shortly you will end up with pages of unrelated posts. Which may include, brazils first choice left back, a german goalkeeper with big muscles or even how angry he is at being very small

Edited February 6, 2023 by BingMcCrosby

[Gordon EF]

15 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Your central thesis that higher domestic player bias in a domestic league means better national team is clearly nonsense. By that logic Saudi Arabia would be terrific.

Captain strawman to the resuce again. Nobody thinks that a nation would become a world football superpower just by having a domestic league full of players of eligble for their own national team. The thesis, whether you agree with it or not, would be more like, increased levels of players not eligble for their natonional teams stunts home grown development and makes a national team worse than they would otherwise be.

Of course, it's a much more complex situation than reducing it down to banal "theses".

[Ewanandmoreagain]

On 05/02/2023 at 13:47, Satoshi said:

Aberdeen alone have far more European trophies than every club in Croatia and Denmark combined.

Those were the days , yes they were X 2

[Theroadlesstravelled]

On 05/02/2023 at 05:47, Satoshi said:

Aberdeen alone have far more European trophies than every club in Croatia and Denmark combined.

If the block Satoshi button has a million fans I am one of them. If the block Satoshi button has ten fans I am one of them. If the block Satoshi button has no fans, that means I am no more on the earth. If the world is against the block Satoshi button, I am against the world.

P&B to you.

[velo army]

19 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Where are you getting these figures from?

Do you have the figure that lists British players as domestic rather than just Scottish?

At the record of other similar sized European nations vs Scotland? Quite possibly, we are running riot.

Scottish clubs have 4 European trophies, Croatia and Denmark combined have a generous 1 (the inter city friars cup of 1967).

It's not only a historical thing either, this millennium there have been three Scottish teams reaching European finals, I'm not sure it has ever happened for a Croatian or Danish side.

Thinking their league is better than ours is a pretty wild take, from their side they don't ever compete with us, our domestic league is the impossible dream for them.

Your central thesis that higher domestic player bias in a domestic league means better national team is clearly nonsense. By that logic Saudi Arabia would be terrific. Our young players competing for squad places is what will make them better, it's hardly that the SPFL will have the best calibre foreigners in their anyway.

Celtic got that one to keep, I think you'll find.

[Satoshi]

15 hours ago, Binos said:

British players are not domestic 

They are not brought through our youth systems,  they cannot turn out for our country internationally 

Transfermarkt website has all these stats

I shall split into two posts to make it a bit easier to read.

Right, even whilst non EU nations can very easily restrict foreign players, there is nothing the Scottish government can do to restrict British players. We are literally the same country as the British isles, so it seems natural that all British leagues would have a lower domestic player ratio than average. That compute with you?

This is the highest achieving English team since the 60s and they are achieving it with 31.1% domestic players in their top division. In their dire 1970s, I couldn't find the figures, but it would be at least double and more likely well above 75%.

I would strongly suspect the English second tier has the lowest domestic player bias of any second tier as well.

15 hours ago, Binos said:

Is clearly the case 

And clearly Saudi Arabia is an emerging football nation,  as Denmark were in the 60s

Your hearts aberdeens are abject failures,  that's the point 

Who copy the of in buying in 50% at least foreigners even though they're duds

Cypriot teams are outperforming them since the millennium,  just about everyone is

They'd be better developing more players, they would be no worse and solvent 

Emerging from where to where? They are the dire situation of not letting their players go abroad. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, various North African countries and Russia all have high (or very high) domestic player ratios. They have all underperformed their entire history and will certainly continue doing so because very few of their players choose to expand their horizons and play at the top level. A relatively strong well paying domestic league is bad for your national team (it has a lesser but still noticeable effect on Scotland).

15 hours ago, Binos said:

In fact dudelange from Luxembourg are outperfming them

You think Luxembourg has a stronger domestic league than Scotland? Even for an avid self hater that's quite some take.

Some Scottish teams do underperform in Europe, no doubt about it, but as a whole (and historically) we are pissing on all our competitors (as well as many much larger nations) from a great height. Our proportional attendance figures have been consistently amongst the best in europe for decades. And our record in European competition is so far ahead of our peers, a non football person would scarcely believe that Scottish teams have more European trophies than every nation of less than 10 million people combined. And in this millennium, three finals. No other European nation of less than 10 million has one (neither do much larger nations like Poland or Hungary or Romania).

Of all the things to criticise Scottish football on, a weak domestic game is one that will see you explicitly go against overwhelming evidence.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Satoshi

[Satoshi]

15 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Mate your clearly correct, what hes trying to do is his normal thing. Reframe the question and win an argument that nobody is even interested in.

Were looking at this as Scotland fans, not Aberdeen or old firm fans or fans of any club.

So in terms of Scotland fans were looking at the national teams. Denmark and Croatia out perform us easily. As you say they have less foreign players in their domestic leagues, so more opportunities for their players.

So the best ones move abroad, creating the next opportunity for a domestic player.

So their national teams thrive.

I was advised to stick him on ignore for the benefit of the forum. Id advise anyone to do the same. Or shortly you will end up with pages of unrelated posts. Which may include, brazils first choice left back, a german goalkeeper with big muscles or even how angry he is at being very small

If this was the case, then there would be a clear correlation between domestic player bias and success but there just isn't. 

Romania have only 33% foreigners in their domestic league, England have only 31% domestic players, does anyone want to guess who is better?

Russia, possibly Europe's bigger underperformers have 70% domestic player ratio. France, Europes top nation has 46%.

Just saying that because Croatia and Denmark have it, therefore that's why they are successful, is clearly incorrect as you haven't considered that the correlation doesn't exist in other nations. The more nations you look at it, the more tenuous (or straight up non existent) the connection between domestic player bias and international success is. To expand beyond Europe I compared Uruguay (biggest overachievers in SA) with Colombia (biggest underachievers in SA) and they have the same proportion of foreign players.

I would love it for you to put me on ignore and not to reply to my posts again, but we both know you're all talk and no action.

So until then, I'm happy to provide facts to counter balance your (typically factless) contributions. It's good to have balance.

6 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

Captain strawman to the resuce again. Nobody thinks that a nation would become a world football superpower just by having a domestic league full of players of eligble for their own national team. The thesis, whether you agree with it or not, would be more like, increased levels of players not eligble for their natonional teams stunts home grown development and makes a national team worse than they would otherwise be.

Of course, it's a much more complex situation than reducing it down to banal "theses".

As pointed out above, the facts and statistics are totally clear there is no clear relationship between domestic player bias and international success. Could it be a factor? Possibly, but it seems as likely to go the other way. In a truly competitive league domestic youngsters have to play against the best international players to earn their slot. And they do, Spain, Italy, Germany, France and England have the best foreign players in the world. And all have very strong national teams and their best young players are instantly thrown in the top level.

Compare that to a league with a very restrictive policy on foreign players (say the US). There are fewer foreigners, they probably aren't as good, and each nation has to have a defined number of domestic players. It creates a two tier system when Giovinco has to play with (and alongside) total haddies from US colleges who are on 1% of what he is on. The domestic players don't have to be that good to get in that team, they don't have to push themselves as much. Playing against less foreigners would usually mean a reversion to coaching orthodoxy and testing yourself against fewer styles of play. The very best nations, Spain, France etc. have their international players in all the top 5 European domestic leagues, having a mix of styles in your team helps a lot.

You could expand further on why protectionist policies in any industry is anti competitive. Do you think protectionism on the whole is a good concept? Should we rebuild the steel industry to compete with India?

But even anecdotally, how would this work in practice? What potential Scottish international calibre player is losing out on their place to a foreigner? Ryan Fraser, who is ok, was playing regularly at 16 years old when Aberdeen had amongst the biggest budget in the league.

Celtic, by far the richest club, also produces the most international players. Even if they don't make it straight away they do so elsewhere (Robertson for example).

Can anyone name a single player who hasn't become a Scotland international or hasn't fulfilled his potential because Johnny foreigner took his place? Logically it wouldn't happen, if he was going to be good enough he would play, and if he wasn't playing with, say, Celtic he would get a game with probably 10 other teams in the top league.

3 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

If the block Satoshi button has a million fans I am one of them. If the block Satoshi button has ten fans I am one of them. If the block Satoshi button has no fans, that means I am no more on the earth. If the world is against the block Satoshi button, I am against the world.

P&B to you.

Again, sadly, zero chance he will actually block me.

Likes talking about it, though.

Theoretically, could increasing domestic player representation help a league? Possibly, but it certainly doesn't seem an issue in Scotland for the reasons listed above. There's additional complexities involved in not being able to limit British players anyway. If anything, I would say laxer work permit rules on non EU players have lifted the standard of the SPFL which has benefited our domestic players.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Satoshi

[eez-eh]

5 hours ago, Satoshi said:

We are literally the same country as the British isles

I haven’t heard of that country before. Where is it?