Strikers coming through

[BrigtonClyde]

On 04/10/2020 at 12:24, ewan14 said:

Back to Peru 78 I think the problem was midfield , and maybe defence

I do not think H#ns#n playing instead of Forsyth would have made a difference

The main problem in 78 was the defence.  At that time it wasn't exactly water tight anyway, but he lost his two best to injury, McGrain & McQueen.  Kennedy was tried as a replacement to McGrain and replaced by Buchan, a sweeper.  McQueen was replaced by bombscare Burns.  Forsyth and Donnachie were the other two regulars at the time and both played, but if he didn't have those injuries, very likely we'd have got through that group

The regular midfield at the time who got us there and won the Home Championships usually included a pick from Hartford, Masson, Macari, Rioch, Souness & Gemmill.  All played.  Nobody was moving Jordan & Dalglish from the forward line.   Wallace was tried in a friendly against Bulgaria.  Johnstone was only there if Jordan got injured.

He got a better balance in midfield against Holland - we should really have scored a few more than 3 - but probably caught them cold as they thought they'd just need to turn up, especially after they went ahead with the pen.  Ifs / buts, if Masson doesn't miss the pen at 1-1 v Peru etc etc.  Iran was the worst performance out the lot but would have got away with that with a full defence available.

Though McLeod came a cropper, at least he talked up the team, got results up til then, had a positive approach, got the fans excited.  Stein came in and the first thing he said was we need to cut that out, lower expectations and basically realize we're only Scotland.  He did well enough but we've had that mentality ever since.

It's been on a couple times on the BBC Scotland channel  

[Scary Bear]

On 05/10/2020 at 23:18, greenockraver said:

Out of interest what channel was the 78 thing on? 

I think it was on BBC iplayer last time I looked.

[ewan14]

On 08/10/2020 at 13:54, BrigtonClyde said:

The main problem in 78 was the defence.  At that time it wasn't exactly water tight anyway, but he lost his two best to injury, McGrain & McQueen.  Kennedy was tried as a replacement to McGrain and replaced by Buchan, a sweeper.  McQueen was replaced by bombscare Burns.  Forsyth and Donnachie were the other two regulars at the time and both played, but if he didn't have those injuries, very likely we'd have got through that group

The regular midfield at the time who got us there and won the Home Championships usually included a pick from Hartford, Masson, Macari, Rioch, Souness & Gemmill.  All played.  Nobody was moving Jordan & Dalglish from the forward line.   Wallace was tried in a friendly against Bulgaria.  Johnstone was only there if Jordan got injured.

He got a better balance in midfield against Holland - we should really have scored a few more than 3 - but probably caught them cold as they thought they'd just need to turn up, especially after they went ahead with the pen.  Ifs / buts, if Masson doesn't miss the pen at 1-1 v Peru etc etc.  Iran was the worst performance out the lot but would have got away with that with a full defence available.

Though McLeod came a cropper, at least he talked up the team, got results up til then, had a positive approach, got the fans excited.  Stein came in and the first thing he said was we need to cut that out, lower expectations and basically realize we're only Scotland.  He did well enough but we've had that mentality ever since.

It's been on a couple times on the BBC Scotland channel  

FFS McLeod was a cheerleader , if that , next to Stein

As mentioned before , iirc Danny McGrain did not think much of McLeod' s management skills

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

7 goals now for Hornby in the u21s. 1 more to equal the records of Booth and Rhodes.

Could easily get a few against San Marino next week.

[ewan14]

On 08/10/2020 at 13:54, BrigtonClyde said:

The main problem in 78 was the defence.  At that time it wasn't exactly water tight anyway, but he lost his two best to injury, McGrain & McQueen.  Kennedy was tried as a replacement to McGrain and replaced by Buchan, a sweeper.  McQueen was replaced by bombscare Burns.  Forsyth and Donnachie were the other two regulars at the time and both played, but if he didn't have those injuries, very likely we'd have got through that group

The regular midfield at the time who got us there and won the Home Championships usually included a pick from Hartford, Masson, Macari, Rioch, Souness & Gemmill.  All played.  Nobody was moving Jordan & Dalglish from the forward line.   Wallace was tried in a friendly against Bulgaria.  Johnstone was only there if Jordan got injured.

He got a better balance in midfield against Holland - we should really have scored a few more than 3 - but probably caught them cold as they thought they'd just need to turn up, especially after they went ahead with the pen.  Ifs / buts, if Masson doesn't miss the pen at 1-1 v Peru etc etc.  Iran was the worst performance out the lot but would have got away with that with a full defence available.

Though McLeod came a cropper, at least he talked up the team, got results up til then, had a positive approach, got the fans excited.  Stein came in and the first thing he said was we need to cut that out, lower expectations and basically realize we're only Scotland.  He did well enough but we've had that mentality ever since.

It's been on a couple times on the BBC Scotland channel  

Was Stuart Kennedy replaced by Buchan ?

Did Jardine not play against Iran , with Donnachie as the other full back ?

ANYWAY Peru's first goal they walked through us , the MIDFIELD not supporting the defence ! 

I think the first choice midfield was Johnstone , Hartford , Rioch , Masson

which might have been put together by Willie Ormond

IIRC both Rioch and Masson have said they were past their best. Masson's book is due out soon

 

I am amused you think

 Burns was a bombscare , he , Burns , thought Stuart Kennedy was one

Edited October 9, 2020 by ewan14

[ewan14]

3 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

7 goals now for Hornby in the u21s. 1 more to equal the records of Booth and Rhodes.

Could easily get a few against San Marino next week.

Bruuuuuce !

Get him in the senior squad

[Enigma]

With a name like Hornby he should be known as the Flying Scotsman.

[Scary Bear]

On 05/10/2020 at 23:18, greenockraver said:

Out of interest what channel was the 78 thing on? 

Scotland 78: A Love Story, Scotland 78: A Love Story: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b4fx2q via @bbciplayer
 

it’s on BBC iplayer for another 23 days. It’s a good watch.

[D.A.F.C]

Nisbet should be included soon.

[parsforlife]

23 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

Nisbet should be included soon.

Struggling to get a shot on target Stevie?  Should we call up the top scorer in Scottish football? Nah let’s call up a bunch of strikers who have scored the same amount of goals between them.  The vast majority by dykes.

And dykes scores as I write this post

Edited October 11, 2020 by parsforlife

[BrigtonClyde]

On 09/10/2020 at 20:51, ewan14 said:

Was Stuart Kennedy replaced by Buchan ?

Did Jardine not play against Iran , with Donnachie as the other full back ?

ANYWAY Peru's first goal they walked through us , the MIDFIELD not supporting the defence ! 

I think the first choice midfield was Johnstone , Hartford , Rioch , Masson

which might have been put together by Willie Ormond

IIRC both Rioch and Masson have said they were past their best. Masson's book is due out soon

 

I am amused you think

 Burns was a bombscare , he , Burns , thought Stuart Kennedy was one

You're correct about Jardine actually, for some reason I remembered Buchan at right back

The defensive line ups changed every game

Peru - Kennedy Burns Forsyth Donnachie

Iran - Jardine Burns Buchan Donnachie

Holland - Kennedy Buchan Forsyth Donnachie

Almost certain if available it would have been, for all 3, McGrain, McQueen, Forsyth, Donnachie

McQueen travelled. IIRC he smashed his knee against a post v Wales at Hampden in Home Championships, same game Donnachie scored an OG. Presumably hope was he might have recovered in time if we'd got through group stage, but doubt it with a knee injury

Rioch played v Holland.  If what you're saying about him and Masson subsequently saying they felt they were past it is correct, pity they didn't tell the manager at the time then, isn't it

[ewan14]

1 hour ago, BrigtonClyde said:

You're correct about Jardine actually, for some reason I remembered Buchan at right back

The defensive line ups changed every game

Peru - Kennedy Burns Forsyth Donnachie

Iran - Jardine Burns Buchan Donnachie

Holland - Kennedy Buchan Forsyth Donnachie

Almost certain if available it would have been, for all 3, McGrain, McQueen, Forsyth, Donnachie

McQueen travelled. IIRC he smashed his knee against a post v Wales at Hampden in Home Championships, same game Donnachie scored an OG. Presumably hope was he might have recovered in time if we'd got through group stage, but doubt it with a knee injury

Rioch played v Holland.  If what you're saying about him and Masson subsequently saying they felt they were past it is correct, pity they didn't tell the manager at the time then, isn't it

Incredible he used three different centre back combinations

Burns could not blame Iran's equaliser on Stuart Kennedy

 ( That is how I remember Gordon MacQueen getting injured , stopping Wales getting a goal )

So the defence had good players but did not get much protection from the midfield

I am sure Rioch has said he was , perhaps , past his best , and Masson has his book coming out soon

[BrigtonClyde]

3 hours ago, ewan14 said:

Incredible he used three different centre back combinations

Burns could not blame Iran's equaliser on Stuart Kennedy

 ( That is how I remember Gordon MacQueen getting injured , stopping Wales getting a goal )

So the defence had good players but did not get much protection from the midfield

I am sure Rioch has said he was , perhaps , past his best , and Masson has his book coming out soon

The situation as I remember it at that time was that we weren't blessed with loads of fantastic defensive options, but he was used to his regular 4.  McGrain got injured the summer before so was out the whole season, but McQueen was a lot closer to the finals, so it threw him.  The defenders hadn't got used to playing with each other, Burns was obviously supposed to be a direct replacement for McQueen, but it doesn't always work as straightforward as that.   Buchan was a class act, really a sweeper, but in a pretty poor Man Utd.

McGrain was hard to replace because he was both a solid defender and good attacking full back.  Jardine was more the former, Kennedy more the latter

So it basically took him the three games to try & work out which seemed to be the best pick, although none would be as good as his first pick.  

These are the days before "holding midfielders".  They were obviously expected to carry out defensive duties, but the concept of a specific role to protect the defence didn't come in until years later though you'd maybe have a tough tackler in there.  Back in line with the original thread, we had good striking options but that wasn't the problem.  We went there with a weak defence, and a midfield picked who couldn't create chances against Iran.  He changed that against Holland but the damage was done.  

[Gordopolis]

New thread for this please

[DAFC.]

Fair enough he's got his move, we'll see how well he does. Still happy to predict that Shankland will score more, even playing for a much worse team.

Well, I for one am stunned that craigkillie has been proved to be a mumbleclown again.

Madness that Nisbet wasn’t even in the squad.

[Szamo's_Ammo]

8 minutes ago, DAFC. said:

 

Well, I for one am stunned that craigkillie has been proved to be a mumbleclown again.

Madness that Nisbet wasn’t even in the squad.

 

Shankland has started only 4 games this season, due to injury.

Nisbet has started 8 league matches for Hibernian and has failed to score in 5 of them.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Szamo's_Ammo

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

7 hours ago, BrigtonClyde said:

You're correct about Jardine actually, for some reason I remembered Buchan at right back

The defensive line ups changed every game

Peru - Kennedy Burns Forsyth Donnachie

Iran - Jardine Burns Buchan Donnachie

Holland - Kennedy Buchan Forsyth Donnachie

Almost certain if available it would have been, for all 3, McGrain, McQueen, Forsyth, Donnachie

McQueen travelled. IIRC he smashed his knee against a post v Wales at Hampden in Home Championships, same game Donnachie scored an OG. Presumably hope was he might have recovered in time if we'd got through group stage, but doubt it with a knee injury

Rioch played v Holland.  If what you're saying about him and Masson subsequently saying they felt they were past it is correct, pity they didn't tell the manager at the time then, isn't it

Burns, Robertson, McGovern all won 2 European cup finals immediately after Argentina.

Did Derek Johnstone not score 40 goals in the preceding season, and so on form for Argentina but did not get a minute?

I thought Masson and Rioch were both very good players.

For me Rough was brilliant at times, but frequently left looking a bit silly at World cups.

Aside from him, that squad were good enough to perform against Iran and Peru, so something else was at play.

[ewan14]

31 minutes ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

Burns, Robertson, McGovern all won 2 European cup finals immediately after Argentina.

Did Derek Johnstone not score 40 goals in the preceding season, and so on form for Argentina but did not get a minute?

I thought Masson and Rioch were both very good players.

For me Rough was brilliant at times, but frequently left looking a bit silly at World cups.

Aside from him, that squad were good enough to perform against Iran and Peru, so something else was at play.

Nottingham Forest did have their wonderful success but we did have quite a few good players back then and Robertson did play in 1982

IIRC Derek Johnstone was on form but he was not going to displace D#lgl##sh or Jordan

Masson and Rioch were very good players in their prime

Fair point . IMHO Goram is our best ever goalie

The Iran game was shocking , but it was after Willie Johnstone's positive drugs test etc eg. some other player saying he had taken the pills in question as well so that would have had an effect

I do not think all Scottish teams have always been as organised defensively as they should have been

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by ewan14

[Bing.McCrosby]

30 minutes ago, DAFC. said:

Well, I for one am stunned that craigkillie has been proved to be a mumbleclown again.

Madness that Nisbet wasn’t even in the squad.

 

Have a green just for the use of the word "mumbleclown". A term I had never heard, and look forward to calling someone.

From a scotland point of view, I couldn't give a monkeys who scores more goals between Nisbet and Shankland. I hope they both have good seasons and improve.

It wouldn't prove one was better than the other in any case.

[BrigtonClyde]

3 hours ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

Burns, Robertson, McGovern all won 2 European cup finals immediately after Argentina.

Did Derek Johnstone not score 40 goals in the preceding season, and so on form for Argentina but did not get a minute?

I thought Masson and Rioch were both very good players.

For me Rough was brilliant at times, but frequently left looking a bit silly at World cups.

Aside from him, that squad were good enough to perform against Iran and Peru, so something else was at play.

True SLW, but Forest were known as a team who sat deep and hit on the break, so Burns had plenty of cover.  I just think the main problem was, and is for any team, if you've a weak defence - and that one was hastily put together / chopped and changed - you're in trouble with midfielders then having to cover areas they shouldn't have to. Just becomes a shambles

That said, Iran took some explaining, brutal performance all round. The documentary did point to the 'hotel' they were staying in which looked equally brutal together with the training facilities, and the players were bored rigid. So whether that played a part, who knows. 

Aside from Dalglish and Jordan, I think the second choice strikers we had around that time were Harper, Johnstone, Wallace and Andy Gray. When Stein came in I think he only gave Gray a few starts then started introducing the likes of Steve Archibald & Alan Brazil, then a bit later Nicholas etc. But we did seem to have a greater number of options going into the 90's than we have in recent years.