Strikers coming through

[albagubrath]

You could start an argument in an empty room.

[Gordopolis]

10 minutes ago, albagubrath said:

You could start an argument in an empty room.

The tragic thing is, pointing this out soars far, far over @Satoshi 's head. Either that or they just thrive on being a contrary, tedious bore (not the only one). Intransigence is the enemy of dialectic. Just ignore them.

[albagubrath]

40 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

The tragic thing is, pointing this out soars far, far over @Satoshi 's head. Either that or they just thrive on being a contrary, tedious bore (not the only one). Intransigence is the enemy of dialectic. Just ignore them.

I think he just desperately wants Scottish football/Scotland to succeed which is fine, but his desire steps over the boundary into delusion a bit too often and he ends up coming across as argumentative at best and a crank at worst.

we all want Scottish football and Scotland to succeed here but there’s no point in presenting anything other than reality.

[Gordopolis]

14 minutes ago, albagubrath said:

I think he just desperately wants Scottish football/Scotland to succeed which is fine, but his desire steps over the boundary into delusion a bit too often and he ends up coming across as argumentative at best and a crank at worst.

we all want Scottish football and Scotland to succeed here but there’s no point in presenting anything other than reality.

Interesting alternative viewpoint. You might be right. Net result either way is conversation stalemate and hellishly boring tit for tat stuff.

[Satoshi]

6 hours ago, albagubrath said:

You could start an argument in an empty room.

 

5 hours ago, albagubrath said:

I think he just desperately wants Scottish football/Scotland to succeed which is fine, but his desire steps over the boundary into delusion a bit too often and he ends up coming across as argumentative at best and a crank at worst.

we all want Scottish football and Scotland to succeed here but there’s no point in presenting anything other than reality.

You think Scottish youth development is horrendous, and I have pointed out that it clearly isn't.

It's a weird Scottish mentality to talk things down when the facts are so clearly against it. Many of our fans think our league and national team are 'dredful' or 'horrendous'.

They factually aren't, I hope you have learned this now. When challenged on your views you could only find two nations who were actually better than us. You went for some hyperbole and were corrected. Your view is possibly your reality, but doesn't stack up in actual reality. Scottish football youth development is neither brilliant nor horrendous.

This is a balanced viewpoint which is probably why it doesn't work so well on this polarised board.

[albagubrath]

*sigh*

No, you haven’t proven anything, you’ve made some bland unevidenced statements that frankly I didn’t bother engaging with. You’ve also failed to grasp the difference between the examples I gave, stated as examples, and datasets showing ranking.

If you must have evidence of our us being poor here are some from 40 leagues collected by CEIS:

https://football-observatory.com/Minutes-by-club-trained-players-Athletic-Club-at
 

Hibs were top for percentage of minutes played by home trained players of any age at 22%. This is miles below the best as can be seen. Ross County managed 0.1% of minutes by homegrown players. 0.1% for fucks sake. Athletic club in La Liga managed more than 500 times the minutes.

You claim we are good at youth development, the data shows we are not even in the top 20 from the worlds 40 biggest leagues. There is the data, if you want to go and find some evidence to dispute this crack on.

 

[Satoshi]

I said we were pretty good, your argument against it is that we are not in the top 20 from the worlds 40 biggest leagues? FIFA has 209 members. This all sounds pretty good to me. It's certainly many miles from the horrendous you are rowing away from now.

Of course, you are also falling into the fallacy of judging only on league minutes for homegrown under 21 players which is (as pointed out) not a good measure of youth development. How strong your senior international side is a far better measure. Ours is doing very well at the moment. Do Latvia console their crap national side with how many young players are playing in their league? Frankly, I doubt it.

There is some very obvious very specific reasons why Athletic Bilbao are first, I hope you know them. It's not feasible in Scotland.

So you started by saying our youth development is 'horrendous', claimed I said it was 'brilliant' (I never did) and in the space of your 'research' have only been able to name two nations who are better than us, and that by your only chosen metric we aren't in the top 20 of the 40 best leagues.

....in the end it all sounds like we are pretty good, even by your chosen measure. So will you admit we are not horrendous?

You clearly have some bee in your bonnet about youth development in general or specifically number of minutes for Scottish young players, but not a single thing in your data is showing anything 'horrendous'.

So ditch the hyperbole, get real, and if you do want to make things better think of practical incremental steps.

 

[albagubrath]

I’m out, you are completely delusional.

[craigkillie]

3 hours ago, albagubrath said:

*sigh*

No, you haven’t proven anything, you’ve made some bland unevidenced statements that frankly I didn’t bother engaging with. You’ve also failed to grasp the difference between the examples I gave, stated as examples, and datasets showing ranking.

If you must have evidence of our us being poor here are some from 40 leagues collected by CEIS:

https://football-observatory.com/Minutes-by-club-trained-players-Athletic-Club-at
 

Hibs were top for percentage of minutes played by home trained players of any age at 22%. This is miles below the best as can be seen. Ross County managed 0.1% of minutes by homegrown players. 0.1% for fucks sake. Athletic club in La Liga managed more than 500 times the minutes.

You claim we are good at youth development, the data shows we are not even in the top 20 from the worlds 40 biggest leagues. There is the data, if you want to go and find some evidence to dispute this crack on.

 

That doesn't show anything about how good our youth development is, it only shows how good clubs are at keeping them. We could be developing literally hundreds of world class talents every year, but if they were all snapped up by foreign clubs at 16/17 then they wouldn't feature on that list.

[Bing.McCrosby]

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter where we feature compared to other nations.

Theres noting wrong with seeing and discussing how we could do it better.

How can we improve is for me a perfectly reasonable and expected discussion you would have on a forum dedicated to Scotland.

I doubt Belgium are sitting there going "were sorted let's nobody talk again about youth development"

[albagubrath]

54 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

That doesn't show anything about how good our youth development is, it only shows how good clubs are at keeping them. We could be developing literally hundreds of world class talents every year, but if they were all snapped up by foreign clubs at 16/17 then they wouldn't feature on that list.

That’s a fair comment although I would argue quantity as well as quality is a valid measure of development in our league. For instance producing 100 SP quality players every year rather than 5 EPL quality players tells you something about the systems in place. What we want is to produce high numbers of high quality players every year. 

[Binos]

The only chance we have is unearthing some more Scottish granny signings 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

15 hours ago, Satoshi said:

 

You think Scottish youth development is horrendous, and I have pointed out that it clearly isn't.

It's a weird Scottish mentality to talk things down when the facts are so clearly against it. Many of our fans think our league and national team are 'dredful' or 'horrendous'.

They factually aren't, I hope you have learned this now. When challenged on your views you could only find two nations who were actually better than us. You went for some hyperbole and were corrected. Your view is possibly your reality, but doesn't stack up in actual reality. Scottish football youth development is neither brilliant nor horrendous.

This is a balanced viewpoint which is probably why it doesn't work so well on this polarised board.

I think our league is poor these days , as shown by the results of our teams in Europe ( except OF sometimes , but they are not full of Scots )

The development school does seem to be quite successful

Edited May 28, 2023 by Ewanandmoreagain

[Binos]

2 hours ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

I think our league is poor these days , as shown by the results of our teams in Europe ( except OF sometimes , but they are not full of Scots )

The development school does seem to be quite successful

Not only is it poor 

It has less and less scots,  especially young players 

[gannonball]

1 hour ago, Binos said:

Not only is it poor 

It has less and less scots,  especially young players 

A promising Scottish player can earn many times their wage in the EPL u23 league. Because of the homegrown rule and Brexit they will only become more desirable. That leaves generally slower calibre of player to break through so it's understandable they aren't going to stick out as much to get a chance.

[RandomGuy.]

13 hours ago, albagubrath said:

Athletic club in La Liga managed more than 500 times the minutes.

 

I take it you understand why they have such a high amount of young players playing, dont you?

[Binos]

15 minutes ago, gannonball said:

A promising Scottish player can earn many times their wage in the EPL u23 league. Because of the homegrown rule and Brexit they will only become more desirable. That leaves generally slower calibre of player to break through so it's understandable they aren't going to stick out as much to get a chance.

How many scots play in this league?

[craigkillie]

14 played in it last season according to Transfermarkt.

[Donathan]

17 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I take it you understand why they have such a high amount of young players playing, dont you?

I’m pretty sure Bilbao effectively operate like a “national” team, despite playing in the club leagues. You need to be born in their catchment area to play for them. 

[gannonball]

5 minutes ago, Binos said:

How many scots play in this league?

I don't know about how many scots in total but we have lost alot of our players deemed elite to either that or major teams abroad. For instance Welsh is probably very lucky to have been given so many first team appearances by us. Morrison was always deemed a far better player than him but is now at Bayern.  If this is happening at the top club in Scotland it's only going to be worse for the rest.