Junior Cup 18-19

[vikingTON]

If only there was a means of providing a 'flood' of artificial light to a sports pitch that even the poorest sub-Saharan diddy leagues can use and is restricted only by the gormless fossils running Junior football. 

[Sunrise]

22 minutes ago, virginton said:

If only there was a means of providing a 'flood' of artificial light to a sports pitch that even the poorest sub-Saharan diddy leagues can use and is restricted only by the gormless fossils running Junior football. 

Original patter eh.

[kenny131]

10 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Every tie up to the latter stages (for me the last 16 or quarters) should be a one tie round, played to a finish on the day, instead of call off, game drawn, call off, call off, replay.... And so on. The current set up delays teams considerably - weeks in some cases. This has the knock on effect at the business end of the season (promotion and relegation battles influenced) by having guys play sat, Mon, Wed, sat, Mon, Wed, Sat.... It's not great in its current form and requires modernised. 

The final is played to 90 mins then straight to penalties every round should be the same it's a fucking farse enough replays then it changes to 2 legged then in the show piece match straight to pens.........it's a joke set up and another on the long list of can't organise a piss up in a brewery 

[Lokloyal]

3 hours ago, kenny131 said:

The final is played to 90 mins then straight to penalties every round should be the same it's a fucking farse enough replays then it changes to 2 legged then in the show piece match straight to pens.........it's a joke set up and another on the long list of can't organise a piss up in a brewery 

I agree Kenny-I am sure Lok would have beaten Beith in the final in extra time but we were forced straight to penalties as that was the rule.Total inconsistency by the rulers ....

[Black Pennel]

Using Kenny logic you could win the cup without actually winning a game. Have a goalie and ten brilliant defenders who were good at penalties...

[Shanner]

I'd keep the replays, they help make the Scottish what it is and they aren't anywhere near as disruptive, for example, as the  attitudes of sides who play on swamp land and would rather sit idle through 10 postponements than entertain the notion of moving venue. 

And considering the number of fairly pointless cups cluttering  the Junior calendar (we have two WOS cups. Why?) it's odd that folk seemingly want to trim ties from the Scottish rather than wholesale scrap some of the lesser ones. 

 

[drs]

7 hours ago, Black Pennel said:

Using Kenny logic you could win the cup without actually winning a game. Have a goalie and ten brilliant defenders who were good at penalties...

You can do that now.

[garrellburn]

1 hour ago, Shanner said:

I'd keep the replays, they help make the Scottish what it is and they aren't anywhere near as disruptive, for example, as the  attitudes of sides who play on swamp land and would rather sit idle through 10 postponements than entertain the notion of moving venue. 

And considering the number of fairly pointless cups cluttering  the Junior calendar (we have two WOS cups. Why?) it's odd that folk seemingly want to trim ties from the Scottish rather than wholesale scrap some of the lesser ones. 

 

Its not just replays that are the problem, many of the serial postponements are of first attempts to play the tie, lets do an analysis of reasons for not being able to get a game played and establish what really are the problems. The two main reasons as I see it are firstly weather, not a lot we can do to change that, Secondly the guidelines on what what pitch conditions are to be applied by referees as to whether a game can go ahead. As we are all aware referees decisions can differ as to what is acceptable or not. It is all down to safety considersations for players, and sometimes for spectators as well. How do we change that, I don't know either but bearing in mind that we live in a country with a very changeable climate better training to achieve more consistency in their decision making might help.

In the meantime why not introduce a rule that if a game is postponed two weeks in a row purely down to local pitch conditions, then either the game should be switched to an all weather venue closest to the home teams location, or if both teams agree, to their opponents ground if it is playable. I can see that might not make some teams very happy but the disruption being caused at present should not be allowed to continue. Since it is probably unlikely that the Junior cup  will continue in its present form for very much longer it is perhaps a problem that will be solved by the SFA imposing new rules on cup competitions. I can't imagine they would allow the Scottish cup to be held up by a game being postponed ten weeks in a row.

[peasy23]

Its not just replays that are the problem, many of the serial postponements are of first attempts to play the tie, lets do an analysis of reasons for not being able to get a game played and establish what really are the problems. The two main reasons as I see it are firstly weather, not a lot we can do to change that, Secondly the guidelines on what what pitch conditions are to be applied by referees as to whether a game can go ahead. As we are all aware referees decisions can differ as to what is acceptable or not. It is all down to safety considersations for players, and sometimes for spectators as well. How do we change that, I don't know either but bearing in mind that we live in a country with a very changeable climate better training to achieve more consistency in their decision making might help.
In the meantime why not introduce a rule that if a game is postponed two weeks in a row purely down to local pitch conditions, then either the game should be switched to an all weather venue closest to the home teams location, or if both teams agree, to their opponents ground if it is playable. I can see that might not make some teams very happy but the disruption being caused at present should not be allowed to continue. Since it is probably unlikely that the Junior cup  will continue in its present form for very much longer it is perhaps a problem that will be solved by the SFA imposing new rules on cup competitions. I can't imagine they would allow the Scottish cup to be held up by a game being postponed ten weeks in a row.

The serial postponements are responsible for more of the fixture backlog than the replays. Round 3 was a disaster last year with many ties taking up to the 5th scheduled attempt to go ahead for the first time. In our own case at Carnoustie, we knew on a couple of occasions by Wed/Thurs that there was no chance of the match going ahead, so it would have been ideal to have a provisional league match arranged as a back up.

[kenny131]

11 hours ago, Black Pennel said:

Using Kenny logic you could win the cup without actually winning a game. Have a goalie and ten brilliant defenders who were good at penalties...

Love a good bit of defending

[Black Pennel]

10 hours ago, drs said:

You can do that now.

Ah,...yes, point taken...OK then, scrap the games and just have a penalty competition.

 

 

[garrellburn]

As per my suggestion to do an analysis of Scottish cup ties  to see how many are drawn I have done a quick analysis of 3 seasons chosen randomly over the past 25 years . all data has been obtained from Stewart Davidsons Scottish Non Leagie Reviews booklets which have proved immensely usefull, and thanks are due to him.

The seasons are 1994-5, 2004-5 and 2007-8 and I have counted total number of drawn games in the competition, number which went into extra time in the replay, and number which needed a penalty kick shotout to decide the tie. The total number of ties varies slightly in each year as clubs have come and gone, and excluded the final from the analysis. The total number of clubs is around 160 in each year with the total number of games higher taking into account replays. During this period only one replay has been the rule, not sure when the practice of multiple replays was abandoned but they were certainly still being played in the 1980's.

 

Total no of clubs in competition ; 94-95- 167.   04-05 - 165.   07- 08 -158

Total no of games played                       207                 193                          188

Total no of drawn ties                               40                    35                             31

Total going into extra time                        9                       0                               2

Total penalty deciders                                 4                     12                              8

Not quite sure what all ,of this tells us except that there will always be games needing a replay, some requiring either added time or some other method of deciding the tie. At one time it was the toss oif a coin, the number of corner kicks won in added time (Kilsyth won the Pompey cup in 1958 on this rule), or games really played to a finish (Motherwell won a Scottish cup tie in the late 1940's that lasted 157 minutes). Now its penalties, usually 5 each, but sometimes going into double figures to reach a decision.

All of this has nothing to do with postponments of course, or the resulting fixture congestion but I think it proves that doing away with replays in drawn Scottish cup ties will do little to solve the problem.

Quite apart from that, the question of fairness has to be taken into account. There is no doubt that a home draw does give clubs a slight advantage and a draw away from home surely does merit another chance. Also the away club loses out on all the extra revenue that a home draw brings, Raffle, programme sales, refreshments, sponsorship, etc.  A run of away ties to more remote  clubs which often generate very little revenue can bring a club to its knees. Its £300  for a team bus to Ayrshire from here, £700 to Aberdeen  and the share of an away gate is very often barely into three figures.

Oh, and by the way it took less than 1 hour to compile the stats, and 30 mins to type, and I'm retired with nothing better to do.

[Jimmy Gentles]

On 12/08/2018 at 01:25, Lokloyal said:

I agree Kenny-I am sure Lok would have beaten Beith in the final in extra time but we were forced straight to penalties as that was the rule.Total inconsistency by the rulers ....

What a load of shite 

[BTID]

On a different note, has the value of the Scottish junior cup been lost forever with the mass exodus in the east. The north region barely get past the first few rounds and the past few years has been dominated by the west. 

 

I conceed I now know little of what strength is left in the east but has this competition basically become overrun by one region? 

[Guest brycey]

2 hours ago, BTID said:

On a different note, has the value of the Scottish junior cup been lost forever with the mass exodus in the east. The north region barely get past the first few rounds and the past few years has been dominated by the west. 

 

I conceed I now know little of what strength is left in the east but has this competition basically become overrun by one region? 

the junior cup is defo devalued now - theres no strength left in the east at all now - theres nae teams lol 

[Jimmy Gentles]

2 hours ago, BTID said:

On a different note, has the value of the Scottish junior cup been lost forever with the mass exodus in the east. The north region barely get past the first few rounds and the past few years has been dominated by the west. 

 

I conceed I now know little of what strength is left in the east but has this competition basically become overrun by one region? 

Yeah the scottish cup isnt nearly the same anymore, the scottish in name only now without most of the biggest east teams.

[garrellburn]

Another result of the mass decamp of so many east region teams is that when the draw is made for the second round  there will be more ties with teams having to travel long distances. There are 63 teams in the West region and probably more than 50 located north of the Tay. Inevitably there are going to be a lot more ties involving teams from opposite ends of the country. The chances of getting a half gate that covers expenses, even taking into account the guarantee,  in most of them are not good.  Another reason to keep replays. It will be a shame to see the end of the junior cup but it is beginning to look inevitable. A new competition involving the rump of the juniors and the lower Senior leagues, regionalised in the early rounds, and hopefully some decent sponsorship will replace it within three years.

[FairWeatherFan]

 

[albertsquare]

On 12/08/2018 at 01:38, Black Pennel said:

Using Kenny logic you could win the cup without actually winning a game. Have a goalie and ten brilliant defenders who were good at penalties...

Renfrew

 

[Black Pennel]

Aye. That point already made above and accepted.