Sons v Loons

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

So Loy is out of position and that excuses him a bad performance but Perry is out of position and he's just not good enough? Forbes has quality but we can't afford to have a passenger in the team and hope that he produces something. He needs to offer a bit more.
I'd say out centre backs have been worse in the last 2 or 3 games than Hutton. I would also debate that Hutton has been the worst player on the park. He isn't anywhere near being our best player and at times he frustrates the life out of me, but he gets more abuse than he deserves. A bit like Ross Perry I feel like more judgement is placed on them based on the opinions of fans of their previous clubs than what they do in a sons jersey.

Loy isn't out of position, he's playing upfront, unfortunately we're lumping balls up towards him like he's some sort of target man. He isn't.

I never said Perry isn't good enough, I said he's never a right back. Which quite clearly he isn't. I don't give a flying f**k what fans of previous clubs say about him, but he looks like a fish out of water at right back.

Both of these situations are Aitken's doing.

I have to disagree regarding Hutton. He's absolutely shite, lazy and shows zero desire. If you think Barr and Dowie have been worse than Hutton then fair enough, I'd massively disagree with that opinion. Kyle Hutton should be dropped, no doubt about it.

[Scottylintonstowel]

I think playing Old Scrotum at right back was a tactical error on Stevies part.

[BallochSonsFan]

I don't expect Rory Loy to be a target man who bullies defenders.

I expect him to offer movement and to offer himself as an option to pass to, even if he expects to be challenged from behind. I expect him to be able to show for a pass by moving into space or to trap the ball and either turn towards goal or to find a teammate. Did we choose to lump long, high balls forward because it was our game plan? Or did we resort to lumping long balls high and forward because we had absolutely no intensity to our play?

I think we fell into really bad, lazy habits the minute we became frustrated.

[squeezeboxson]

8 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

Loy isn't out of position, he's playing upfront, unfortunately we're lumping balls up towards him like he's some sort of target man. He isn't.

I never said Perry isn't good enough, I said he's never a right back. Which quite clearly he isn't. I don't give a flying f**k what fans of previous clubs say about him, but he looks like a fish out of water at right back.

Both of these situations are Aitken's doing.

I have to disagree regarding Hutton. He's absolutely shite, lazy and shows zero desire. If you think Barr and Dowie have been worse than Hutton then fair enough, I'd massively disagree with that opinion. Kyle Hutton should be dropped, no doubt about it.

I dont think Ross Forbes or Rory Loy offered enough today. I also don't think Hutton was anywhere near our worst player today. All about opinions really but I'm sure most would agree that the players as a unit/team need to put in a lot more effort!

[sonsanorak]

Someone done their homework and prepared for today. Someone picked a shape that suited his players and limited the opposition.

I’d want to see the first goal again before apportioning blame, but our cb’s didn’t exactly protect the goalie. 2nd is mangos error diving in out wide.

I didn’t think hutts was the most ineffective. Overall there were some really disappointing performances, manager included.

[albundy]

Well, that was thoroughly deflating. After the shite and negativity we had to put up with last season culminating in last gasp defeats in the challenge cup final and the playoffs we were at a low. In the summer through some good recruitment, a more pragmatic chairman and the promise of playing attaching football, all of a sudden there are reasons to be optimistic about this season.

 

And I felt almost all of that optimism disappear after Baird's second today.

 

Despite having been promised a change to more attaching football, all we appear to have done is revert to last seasons type but with the exception of putting another player up front. The players didn't seem to have a clue what to do today, there was no obvious pattern of game plan of than pumping the ball forward in hope of a 50/50.

 

Where's the attacking football we where promised Stevie...

 

 

 

[Howlin' Wilf]

2 minutes ago, squeezeboxson said:

I dont think Ross Forbes or Rory Loy offered enough today. I also don't think Hutton was anywhere near our worst player today. All about opinions really but I'm sure most would agree that the players as a unit/team need to put in a lot more effort!

It's easy to appoint scapegoats. Hutton wasn't the worst and actually came very close to equalising. Perry was on a pendulum, one minute making a crucial tackle in defence, the next trying to hit Overtoun House with the ball when he had a gaping space called the goal not far in front of him. I know O'Kelly will be once again citing the pairing of Hutton and Carswell in midfield as the answer to the question "why are we so shite?" and that may have some validity, however Carswell probably had the next best effort on goal to Hutton (apart from the penalty of course). Steve Aitken and Ian Durrant took pelters at the end of the game and will realise that it is they who have to turn things around for an even more difficult encounter next week. There is a lot of work to do.

[George Parr]

Definitely easier to absorb this sort of result when you don't bother going. Perhaps they'll bounce back next week.

[Howlin' Wilf]

5 minutes ago, albundy said:

And I felt almost all of that optimism disappear after Baird's second today.

 

The players, lining up for the k.o. after the second goal, looked  without exception, completely deflated. Heads down and not a clenched fist in sight.  If the points hadn't been quite lost with the first goal they'd gone to Forfar with the second. There were 20 minutes left FFS!!

[Loonytoons]

Lack of Loon input so ....woohoo

[Nowhereman]

I would. He’s another pacey player that scored more last season than Loy.

I genuinely believe Loy is gonna have a similar affect on you that Prunty had on us.

Player in there but broken and past it. Could be totally wrong and never said 2 games was any vindication either. Just amusing that Baird got two after what was said

On the evidence of the first two league games you may well be right

[Nowhereman]

A poor game from a Sons point of view.
Forfar were better organised and were more committed. They went out with a formation and a plan that was suited to the game and to the players available. Every Forfar player put in a shift today. That game was a prime example of why in League One you need to be organised and you need to graft. You can't rely on skill players having time and space to dictate the game. You need to be willing to play at 100mph when you need to and to try to force chances rather than building them. Forfar put in the kind of performance today that our guys simply aren't used to. 
We've got a lot of learning to do. Guys like Ross Forbes strolling around the park looking to pick out Holywood passes. You don't have the time and space to do that in League One unless you're up to tempo. Loy was anonymous for large parts of the game and offered absolutely no presence up front. Paton needs to be driving at opponents and challenging them to foul him.  For all that Kyle Hutton has limited ability (and is an easy target for our fans) the number of times he had the ball and didnt have anybody in front of him moving or looking to receive a pass was criminal. So he either held it too long or passed it sideways/backwards.
Today was the perfect example of why we need to be aggressive, press opponents and get forward with purpose. We can't sit back and play patient football in this league because our opponents won't let us. They were set up to press high and to play aggressively and it absolutely worked for them. A thoroughly deserved 3 points for a team that came with a game plan and executed it with 100% effort and commitment.

Agreed. An awful lot of people criticising Hutton. He had a lot of the ball today but ahead of him there was little movement. Loy and Paton may have good reputations but they've shown very little to justify them so far

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Hutton isn't a scapegoat, he's just absolutely useless. I certainly don't blame him for us being completely inept, he's just not a player that would be anywhere near my starting 11.

The blame lies firmly with Stevie Aitken and his eye bleedingly bad tactics.

[Nowhereman]

The difference being that Loy and Forbes are proven good players, we don't play to their strengths. When is the last time Kyle Hutton had a decent game? Since when was Ross Perry a right back? Since when was Rory Loy a target man?

There's a lot more factors at play than simply x,y and z had a bad game. And lets be honest, Kyle Hutton has been the worst player on the park for months, there is zero denying that.

Take the blinkers off. If by proven good player you mean they have had a decent season some time in the past then Hutton is a proven good player as well. What matters is what they do now

[Jan Vojáček]

Had a wee look back through some posts from last season and I could pretty much just copy and paste them. We've been here before. In fact we spent most of last season saying exactly what I'm about to say.

(tl:dr version, play players in their right position, play to their strengths, make better subs)

Stevie has shown over the past season that he favours a direct style of play. And that's fine. If you have the players for it there's nothing wrong with playing that way. David Hopkin did it with Livingston and they were tremendous to watch. Aggressive, quick at going forward and with a striker (in Lee Miller) who would win everything allowing a quick striker (Ryan Hardie) to play on the shoulder. They even did it with big Dylan Mackin against us in December, where he was superb and totally bullied our defence.

Unfortunately he's brought in players who aren't suited to that style. If he wanted us to go direct then he shouldn't have signed Loy, Forbes, Paton or even Bobby Barr. Because going direct to them is a total waste of time. These guys are technically strong, but they aren't going to relish ninety minutes of aerial duels. 

If we're going to be successful we need to play players in their correct positions and play to their strengths. Forbes is the centre-mid we've been crying out for. Where do we play him? Wide. Paton was rated by the Pars fans for his crossing ability. Where do we play him? Through the middle. Loy is a guy who'll create openings when the balls played into him. What do we do? Park him on half-way as a targetman. Stevie himself said that Calum Gallagher scores goals when played up front. So what do we do when it's 0-0? Move him out wide.

The same goes for Paton. He's quite easily crowded out in the middle (though at least he actually wants to go forward and do something with it). So play him out wide where he has space to cause issues.

Sometimes you need to remove names and emotions and just look at things logically.

All that covers from that horrible lack of balance that we have playing with two defensive central midfielders. Carsy is superior to Hutton in almost every way. Hutton can spray a better crossfield ball and he can pick up more yellow cards. That's it. His positioning is poor, his attitude is poor, his short passing can be awful, his tackling is either non-existent or needlessly rash. Stevie needs to drop one, and if he chooses to drop Carsy then so be it. Maybe Hutton will look a different player if he's not bumping into a guy trying to do his job every five minutes.

Then we get onto the subs situation. Calum Gallagher had a knock and was taken off at half-time. Fine. Not anyone's fault. The decision to bring on Bobby Barr when we had Little and Beany on the bench though? Bizarre. 

Hooking Loy after 70 minutes (with us 2-0 down) for Beany? Bizarre again. Was he having a great game? Obviously not. But we're two goals down, why not take off a defensive mid and go for it a bit?

Imo Stevie's substitutions were the reason we lost the playoff final, and he doesn't seem to have learnt from it. He either changes nothing, or goes more defensive. Very rarely will he actually make a gamechanging sub.

Then we have the defence. Barr and Dowie haven't looked as solid, Dyer was off the pace today, and Perry was (lets not kid ourselves) out of his depth. His early booking was needlessly rash and put him on a knife edge for the rest of the game. He panics when he gets the ball, and despite being alright at the basics of defending (headering it away, clearing it) has nothing else to suggest he's a right-back. I actually felt for him, because you could actually see what confidence he had being totally drained from him with every heavy touch and misjudged pass.

Today was a great opportunity to get things off on the right foot. Season ticket sales have evidently been disappointing and a good showing might've helped convince a few extra people (Consolidate for example) to renew. A pile of work has gone in during the off season (the concourse, pre-match gigs, ST benefits etc) to help get a good feeling back around the place - but that one performance today has smashed us back big time.

Arbroath next week will be a massive test, and one we don't have any chance of overcoming if we perform anything like today. If we get another repeat then Stevie's position is going to be under serious scrutiny from a set of fans who are reaching the end of their tether. I hope he can turn it around, because I like him a lot as a guy, but performances like today are becoming all too regular occurrences. 

Spoiler

Well done, Loons. I tipped you for fourth and on that performance today you should be able to achieve that aim no bother, thus making me look like I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Take the blinkers off. If by proven good player you mean they have had a decent season some time in the past then Hutton is a proven good player as well. What matters is what they do now

Loy was one of St Mirren's standout performers from January to May just over year ago. Forbes was nominated for Championship player of the year in season 2016/17. Loy was also a proven goalscorer and standout with Falkirk prior to joining Dundee, hence why he quite rightly earned a move to the top division. They are proven good players, whether you wish to admit it or not.

Like I said, neither Forbes or Loy played well today but they have talent and unless we play to their strengths they will continue to be ineffective.

Kyle Hutton earned a player of the year award at Queen of the South in season 2015/16 in quite literally the only positive season of his career. If you want to compare Loy and Forbes to Hutton it's quite clear that Loy and Forbes have had far superior careers. It's not having the blinkers on, it's cold hard facts.

[Old Scrotum]

1 hour ago, Scottylintonstowel said:

I think playing Old Scrotum at right back was a tactical error on Stevies part.

Oh, come on: I'm not that bad.

Anyway, I prefer cider to perry (which is not the real thing, rather like Perry).

[loon00]

Defo deserved the win today. Played the better football and limited Dumbarton to just long balls over the top most of the time. Few cracking saves from McCallum and 2 fantastic goals from Baird, him and Hilson really working well together yet again. Wilson at the back looked fairly solid.

[CALDERON]

Ross Perry in being absolutely fucking shite shock. 

[dee_62]

Good performances through the team today. Some nice tidy work (1st half in particular). Well taken goals. Reminded me of the Airdrie game last week but this week we got the second goal and therefore no threat of a collapse in the last 10.
Couple of excellent saves in addition to the penalty from McCallum. On another day, the Sons could have turned us over there.
Moore leaving the RB on his arse and the left winger (Barr?) getting involved with the Forfar fans were another 2 highlights.
Much better Saturday night this week.