LongTimeLurker Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 It was really only Israel's fault that the peace process initiated by the Oslo Accords unravelled and it escaped your notice (you probably weren't born at the time right enough) that Israel withdrew from the Sinai peninsula in exchange for the peace deal with Egypt? Real life usually has shades of grey and seldom has a good guy side and a bad guy side. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: It was really only Israel's fault that the peace process initiated by the Oslo Accords unravelled and it escaped your notice (you probably weren't born at the time right enough) that Israel withdrew from the Sinai peninsula in exchange for the peace deal with Egypt? Real life usually has shades of grey and seldom has a good guy side and a bad guy side. Israel continued expanding settlements on the West Bank under both Likud and Labour governments, and throughout the Oslo process. They were delighted to get out of the cost of controlling a vast desert in return for agreeing peace with Egypt, and likewise Gaza with Egypt now a willing partner in fencing it off from the outside world. Here's a map of how the West Bank would have looked if Arafat had signed the Oslo deal. He wouldn't have lasted a week. Edited August 3, 2018 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 58 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: It was really only Israel's fault that the peace process initiated by the Oslo Accords unravelled and it escaped your notice (you probably weren't born at the time right enough) that Israel withdrew from the Sinai peninsula in exchange for the peace deal with Egypt? Real life usually has shades of grey and seldom has a good guy side and a bad guy side. You're correct, it really was only Israel's fault. They sabotaged that deliberately by offering the Palestinians a state that was completely unviable and making sure Israel kept all the slightly important things like water. No Biggie, it's not like you need water in the fucking desert. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: It was really only Israel's fault that the peace process initiated by the Oslo Accords unravelled and it escaped your notice (you probably weren't born at the time right enough) that Israel withdrew from the Sinai peninsula in exchange for the peace deal with Egypt? Real life usually has shades of grey and seldom has a good guy side and a bad guy side. In the Israeli Palestinian situation there is the oppressor and the oppressed. You’re sympathies seem to lie more with the oppressor; sadly that is not surprising. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 10 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: In the Israeli Palestinian situation there is the oppressor and the oppressed. You’re sympathies seem to lie more with the oppressor; sadly that is not surprising. 2 No idea what you mean with that last bit and couldn't care less because I'm not the issue in all of this. Anybody reading my posts properly should have been able to pick up that I'm not a fan of Zionism as a form of latter-day colonialism and think Israel should be forced to give up the occupied territories. Would have thought the true irony of the Israel-Palestine scenario is how yesterday's oppressed population can become today's oppressor. That suggests that there is usually no inherent good guy and bad guy, because most people no matter where they are from and what their background is are selfish and self-absorbed and spend most of their time looking after numero uno rather than being guided by some higher ideal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 7 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: No idea what you mean with that last bit and couldn't care less because I'm not the issue in all of this. Anybody reading my posts properly should have been able to pick up that I'm not a fan of Zionism as a form of latter-day colonialism and think Israel should be forced to give up the occupied territories. Would have thought the true irony of the Israel-Palestine scenario is how yesterday's oppressed population can become today's oppressor. That suggests that there is usually no inherent good guy and bad guy, because most people no matter where they are from and what their background is are selfish and self-absorbed and spend most of their time looking after numero uno rather than being guided by some higher ideal. Or could suggest that they're different situations. Could be that. Are you of the opinion the Nazis weren't all bad? The French kind of deserved it eh? That's why Nazi uniforms were grey 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 I am of the opinion that people who try to sum up complex situations with a single line of text usually don't understand what is going on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said: I am of the opinion that people who try to sum up complex situations with a single line of text usually don't understand what is going on. I am of the opinion people who think the Israel Palestine situation is shades of grey bit of wrong on both sides don't have a fucking clue what's going on. One side conducted a genocide against the other and stole their land. Now they have to give it back. It's really quite simple. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 The problem with that analysis is where the Mizrahi population of Israel fits in given they were also driven out of their ancestral homes as well and that the emergence of Israel in 1948 is based on a UN resolution and is therefore very firmly rooted in international law terms. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: The problem with that analysis is where the Mizrahi population of Israel fits in given they were also driven out of their ancestral homes as well and that the emergence of Israel in 1948 is based on a UN resolution and is therefore very firmly rooted in international law terms. As is the necessity for Israel to retreat back inside the 1967 borders and relinquish all territory gained through force or threat of force. International law could not possibly be any clearer on that. That's all Israel has to do and all the Palestinians have ever asked for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 You do realise that Hamas controls the Gaza Strip and do not accept Israel's right to exist even with its 1967 borders and the eclipse of Yaser Arafat's secular Fatah faction of the PLO by radical Islamists in political terms was one of the factors that made the peace process that revolved around the Oslo Accords unravel? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said: You do realise that Hamas controls the Gaza Strip and do not accept Israel's right to exist even with its 1967 borders and the eclipse of Yaser Arafat's secular Fatah faction of the PLO by radical Islamists in political terms was one of the factors that made the peace process that revolved around the Oslo Accords unravel? You mean the radical islamists mossad were funding? Hsmas has been ambiguous on that in recent years, the Palestinian position has consistently been 100% of 67 borders no more no less. Which is 100% compliant with every facet of international law. Israel's position has consistently been no. It's not difficult to see the problem here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 You mean the radical islamists mossad were funding? Hsmas has been ambiguous on that in recent years, the Palestinian position has consistently been 100% of 67 borders no more no less. Which is 100% compliant with every facet of international law. Israel's position has consistently been no. It's not difficult to see the problem here.What utter shit.Although Hamas dropped its longstanding call for Israel’s destruction in 2017 it still rejected the country’s right to exist and backs “armed struggle” against it.“Hamas advocates the liberation of all of Palestine but is ready to support the state on 1967 borders without recognizing Israel or ceding any rights". Khaled Meshaal's own words. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 42 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: What utter shit. Although Hamas dropped its longstanding call for Israel’s destruction in 2017 it still rejected the country’s right to exist and backs “armed struggle” against it. “Hamas advocates the liberation of all of Palestine but is ready to support the state on 1967 borders without recognizing Israel or ceding any rights". Khaled Meshaal's own words. 1967 borders is defacto recognition of Israel champ. What do you think that leaves? Fucking Narnia? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Deny people legitimate, democratic options and they will turn to exteremism. Hamas is Israel’s creation just like the ANC was the creation of apartheid. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 1967 borders is defacto recognition of Israel champ. What do you think that leaves? Fucking Narnia?You need to tell Hamas that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Deny people legitimate, democratic options and they will turn to exteremism. Hamas is Israel’s creation just like the ANC was the creation of apartheid. Hamas thrived not just because of Israeli actions but also because Arafat's Fatah were corrupt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Deny people legitimate, democratic options and they will turn to exteremism. Hamas is Israel’s creation just like the ANC was the creation of apartheid. This. Israel wanted Hama's to ascend to power and facilitated that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: You need to tell Hamas that. Hama's have been putting out contradictory statements about this for ten years. But they clearly do accept 67 borders, everybody except Israel does. 67 borders leave a state called Israel, therefore it's defacto recognition. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, Peppino Impastato said: Hama's have been putting out contradictory statements about this for ten years. But they clearly do accept 67 borders, everybody except Israel does... Meanwhile in Tehran... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3227881/Israel-destroyed-25-years-Iranian-supreme-leader-issues-chilling-warning-Zionists-rejects-talks-Great-Satan-U-S-nuclear-deal.html http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/04/iranian-leader-calls-for-end-of-israel-embassy-digs-out-mean-girl-gif/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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