Israel lobby v Corbyn

[Peppino Impastato]

11 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

In 2003, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) published a report attacking "hateful conspiracy theories" that the 9/11 attacks were carried about by Israelis and Jews, saying they had the potential to "rationalize and fuel global anti-Semitism." It found that such theories were widely accepted in the Arab and Muslim world, as well as in Europe and the United States. 

 

 

The ADL's report asserted that many of the theories were modern manifestation of the 19th century Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which purported to map out a Jewish conspiracy for world domination. The ADL has characterized the Jeff Rense website as carrying anti-Semitic materials, such as "American Jews staged the 9/11 terrorist attacks for their own financial gain and to induce the American people to endorse wars of aggression and genocide on the nations of the Middle East and the theft of their resources for the benefit of Israel."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Big deal.  None of that means a person can't legitimately hold that view without reference to any of that.  A lawyer would have that thrown out of court in fifteen seconds.

[Detournement]

"Were Israelis arrested on 9/11 spies?"

https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1

 

[Detournement]

Anyway when the 9/11 families get their case to court Saudi links will be exposed.

The interview with Bin Laden's maw in the Guardian yesterday showed the Saudis and MBS are terrified.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Detournement

[DeeTillEhDeh]

"Were Israelis arrested on 9/11 spies?"
https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1
 

That one has been debunked.

[Detournement]

Debunked how?

I thought the conclusion was two of them were Mossad and their boss and his wife immediately did a bunk to Israel?

[Peppino Impastato]

58 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

3 hours ago, Detournement said:

"Were Israelis arrested on 9/11 spies?"
https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1
 

That one has been debunked.

No it hasn't, there's police reports and the FBI have confirmed it.  There's it getting reported on that notorious conspiracy channel abc news.  You've been debunked.  It's entirely possible for people to hold that view without any anti semitism involved.  As I told you last night.

[welshbairn]

I heard the Saudi hijackers were radio controlled mannequins operated by Mossad agents on the ground.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

No it hasn't, there's police reports and the FBI have confirmed it.  There's it getting reported on that notorious conspiracy channel abc news.  You've been debunked.  It's entirely possible for people to hold that view without any anti semitism involved.  As I told you last night.

Two main points to this - 5 Israelis dancing and them taking photographs and videos.

Apart from the assumption they were dancing - this was only observed from the top of a skyscraper and could easily be open to misinterpretation - why on earth would Mossad agents be openly celebrating? If anything it would be the complete opposite.

As for photographing and videos - I take it everyone else their cat and their dog who were videoing in the aftermath are also Israeli agents?

In the paranoia after 9/11, mainstream news were taking some of this shit seriously instead of realising that this was 5 Israelis in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I give it as much credence as I do to stories of dancing Muslims © D Trump.

What you also miss is that this is not the only part of the story - myths of 4,000 Jews who were warned etc - the reality is that as many Jews died in 9/11 as a proportion of the demographic of NYC.

And back to the original point - Stephen Sizer not only linked to websites that propagated these theories but the same websites were also linking the theories to Judeo-Masonic conspiracies - it's no coincidence that the same websites also promote Holocaust denial.

Why you might say does this affect Corbyn? Well he gave an unqualified testimonial for Sizer in his letter - using the old "must defend the anti-zionist" line without actually checking who it was he was defending.

I've said before that antizionism itself has well founded proud and respectable tradition that is being hijacked by those with antisemitic views.

The problem is that Corbyn seems to ignore the wolves in sheep's clothing - and it's coming back to haunt him.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Anyway when the 9/11 families get their case to court Saudi links will be exposed.
The interview with Bin Laden's maw in the Guardian yesterday showed the Saudis and MBS are terrified.

That's the only conspiracy I'd give credence to - it looks pretty clear that Bin Laden was funded by both the Saudis and the Yemenis.

[welshbairn]

That's the only conspiracy I'd give credence to - it looks pretty clear that Bin Laden was funded by both the Saudis and the Yemenis.

The Saudis have been funding global jihadism for decades from setting up schools, sending out imams to supplying arms and cash. Usually individual Princes rather anything that could be tied back to the state. Bin Laden could easily have funded 9/11 on his own though, the costs would have been minute compared to the effects. A few one way air tickets, a modest bit of flight training on simulators (no take off, landing or comms with aircraft control required) and per diem expenses. The hard thing would have been finding reliable people to do it and keeping them motivated, and stopping any leaks. They had no need for help from anyone else, the fact that nobody had tried it before was why it succeeded.

[Fullerene]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

I heard the Saudi hijackers were radio controlled mannequins operated by Mossad agents on the ground.

 

[Peppino Impastato]

4 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Two main points to this - 5 Israelis dancing and them taking photographs and videos.

Apart from the assumption they were dancing - this was only observed from the top of a skyscraper and could easily be open to misinterpretation - why on earth would Mossad agents be openly celebrating? If anything it would be the complete opposite.

As for photographing and videos - I take it everyone else their cat and their dog who were videoing in the aftermath are also Israeli agents?

In the paranoia after 9/11, mainstream news were taking some of this shit seriously instead of realising that this was 5 Israelis in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I give it as much credence as I do to stories of dancing Muslims © D Trump.

What you also miss is that this is not the only part of the story - myths of 4,000 Jews who were warned etc - the reality is that as many Jews died in 9/11 as a proportion of the demographic of NYC.

And back to the original point - Stephen Sizer not only linked to websites that propagated these theories but the same websites were also linking the theories to Judeo-Masonic conspiracies - it's no coincidence that the same websites also promote Holocaust denial.

Why you might say does this affect Corbyn? Well he gave an unqualified testimonial for Sizer in his letter - using the old "must defend the anti-zionist" line without actually checking who it was he was defending.

I've said before that antizionism itself has well founded proud and respectable tradition that is being hijacked by those with antisemitic views.

The problem is that Corbyn seems to ignore the wolves in sheep's clothing - and it's coming back to haunt him.

You're not understanding.  It's totally irrelevant what you think.  It's POSSIBLE some human beings somewhere could read that abd some other things and come to that conclusion without the need for any anti semitism being involved.  So your assertion that holding that view indicates anti semitism is patently utter nonsense.  As I told you right at the start.

[Peppino Impastato]

4 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

8 hours ago, Detournement said:

Anyway when the 9/11 families get their case to court Saudi links will be exposed.
The interview with Bin Laden's maw in the Guardian yesterday showed the Saudis and MBS are terrified.

That's the only conspiracy I'd give credence to - it looks pretty clear that Bin Laden was funded by both the Saudis and the Yemenis.

Bin Laden was nothing to do with 9-11 the FBI didn't even indict him for it.  That's a conspiracy theory.  Ksm conducted 9-11.  Bin Laden may have provided some funding.  You literally know nothing about this.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

You're not understanding.  It's totally irrelevant what you think.  It's POSSIBLE some human beings somewhere could read that abd some other things and come to that conclusion without the need for any anti semitism being involved.  So your assertion that holding that view indicates anti semitism is patently utter nonsense.  As I told you right at the start.

I'm talking specifically about the websites that Stephen Sizer linked to - they are antisemitic including specific theories that 9/11 was part of a Judeo-Masonic conspiracy.

 

Perhaps your single brain cell doesn't get that?

[Peppino Impastato]

6 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

I'm talking specifically about the websites that Stephen Sizer linked to - they are antisemitic including specific theories that 9/11 was part of a Judeo-Masonic conspiracy.

 

Perhaps your single brain cell doesn't get that?

Not what you said champ, and also a legitimate belief to hold unless you believe that BECAUSE of anti semitism.  Maybe it was.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Bin Laden was nothing to do with 9-11 the FBI didn't even indict him for it.  That's a conspiracy theory.  Ksm conducted 9-11.  Bin Laden may have provided some funding.  You literally know nothing about this.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed planned 9/11 but it ultimately had to be approved by Bin Laden. 

KSM had his initial plans rejected by Bin Laden - the final plan was agreed in principle in late 1998/early 1999. Meetings in early 1999 took place with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Osama bin Laden, and his military chief Mohammed Atef. Bin Laden led the plot and provided financial support. He was also involved in selecting the participants, including choosing Mohammed Atta as the lead hijacker. Khalid Shekih provided operational support, such as selecting targets and helping arrange travel for the hijackers. Atef directed the actions of the hijackers.

 

 

It should also be noted that much of the claims made by KSM were obtained under torture - there is some doubt over the validity of done of his confessions - as some have pointed out - when you are in severe pain you will confess to anything.

[Peppino Impastato]

1 minute ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed planned 9/11 but it ultimately had to be approved by Bin Laden.

 

KSM had his initial plans rejected by Bin Laden - the final plan was agreed in principle in late 1998/early 1999. Meetings in early 1999 took place with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Osama bin Laden, and his military chief Mohammed Atef. Bin Laden led the plot and provided financial support. He was also involved in selecting the participants, including choosing Mohammed Atta as the lead hijacker. Khalid Shekih provided operational support, such as selecting targets and helping arrange travel for the hijackers. Atef directed the actions of the hijackers.

 

This is all theory.  Nobody knows any of it.  Google it, the FBI didn't even include 9-11 on bin Laden's charge sheet as there was precisely zero evidence he was involved in any way at all.  98 bombings yes, 9-11 no.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Not what you said champ, and also a legitimate belief to hold unless you believe that BECAUSE of anti semitism.  Maybe it was.

You need to go back to the original posts - you came in halfway through and took a specific 9/11 theory that Sizer had linked to and assumed I was talking about all 9/11 conspiracies.

Clearly there are 9/11 conspiracies that aren't antisemitic and there are some that are - Sizer specifically linked to a theory in the latter camp.

[Jdog]

Great article by Two Jabs

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/blog/john-prescott-labour-is-not-racist-or-antisemitic/

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Great article by Two Jabs
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/blog/john-prescott-labour-is-not-racist-or-antisemitic/

The key sentence though is:

"There’s no denying Labour has badly handled anti-Semitism."

There has been a consistent process of denial, prevarication and ultimately apology/climbdown. Corbyn has to take the blame for this state of affairs - as I've said before his big problem is that he is now leader and needs to act like a leader not the rebel MP he once was.

I think if he'd been far stronger on condemning those who use antizionism as a cover for their own antisemitism then he'd probably have far less of a problem. Interestingly the one person in Corbyn's team who seems to understand that is McDonnell who now seems to be pushing Labour in the right direction to defuse the situation.

Corbyn's real problem is that he instinctively wants to be all-inclusive and so some get a huge benefit of the doubt when they really ought to be given short thrift.