Israel lobby v Corbyn

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

27 minutes ago, J_Stewart said:

Were I to hypothetically have a username on a Scottish Football forum like LongTimeLurker, and hypothetically, were I to not want to be accused of being pro-Israeli during this discussion, I would simply stop white knighting the Israeli position any time it was criticised, simply stop delving in to false equivalency and whataboutery, and simply stop displaying utterly bizarre concern that a multi-billion dollar high-tech defense system - required predominantly due to consistent Israeli aggression - might fail at some point, when Palestinian children are being murdered daily at this exact moment.

That's just me though.

Have you considered just saying it takes two to tango a lot?

[Salt n Vinegar]

1 minute ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

Have you considered just saying it takes two to tango a lot?

Well, maybe, but I understand that there are differing views in religion about whether dancing is allowed. 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

While the anti-semitic abuse launched from this "convoy" in North London absolutely needs condemning in the context of the UK being a tolerant democracy*,  I've been somewhat surprised at the lack of awareness shown in some of the vox pops on the mainstream news**.

"Jews don't feel safe in this country any more" - from a well-dressed middle-aged woman*** in a tree-lined street full of seven or eight-figure houses. 

I was waiting for the interviewer to respond, "surely you feel safer than some ten year old in Gaza who has just lost her home and family?"

I don't care which fucking deity you use to justify your prejudices and morals****, killing innocent people is fucking wrong. Is it really so hard for someone to admit that Netanyahu is an absolute cúnt?

*Yeah, I know.

** Who made no claim to have seen or heard any more than anyone else of this incident. I may be an old cynic, but "antisemitic abuse", while unacceptable, could range from "fúck off, heebie" to "kill all jews". However vile it was, however, I'm sure it did less damage than the average airstrike,. 

** for "somewhat surprised", read "totally unsurprised"

**** Each and every one of them appears to be fine with non-believers dying by the million. Gods - a right set of cúnts. At least Buddhist Devas don't concern themselves with mortals. 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

A complete misrepresentation of what I have posted. I think both sides need to stop firing missiles etc at each other, both sides need to stop voting extremists into power and both sides need to start seriously negotiating a lasting peaceful two state solution on close to 1967 borders as per UN resolutions. It takes two to tango on all of that.

Let it go, man. The "extremists"  leading Palestine  didn't start out that way, as mentioned previously they were seen as a moderate option. Decades of Israeli landgrabs, oppression and gratuitous killing have simply proved the adage which explains why our Prison System is nothing like the Yanks':

"If you treat people like animals, don't be surprised if they react like animals".

..which leads us to the current situation where the Palestinians have simply run out of options. Exactly what the fúck do you suggest they do to stop the killing? How far would you have to be pushed to see attacking a modern military state (which is practising genocide on you and yours) with glorified fireworks as your only option? 

The more you try to paint this as some kind of two-sided "conflict", the thicker you look. And the pillockometer is reading pretty high right now. 

[Granny Danger]

At the risk of being accused of reductionism, what poster on here if they were a Palestinian would not be a ‘militant’?

Edited May 18, 2021 by Granny Danger

[LongTimeLurker]

Rational thing to do is to emigrate and get your family into a better environment. I met plenty of people from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank who were able to do just that while working in Canada. Like Jake Burns and SLF they didn't waste their lives.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Benjamin_Nevis]

13 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

At the risk of being accused of reductionism, what poster on here if they were a Palestinian would not be a ‘militant’?

Kincardine and Dawson Park Boy would probably be polishing Israeli tanks tbh. 

[BigDoddyKane]

17 hours ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

While the anti-semitic abuse launched from this "convoy" in North London absolutely needs condemning in the context of the UK being a tolerant democracy*,  I've been somewhat surprised at the lack of awareness shown in some of the vox pops on the mainstream news**.

"Jews don't feel safe in this country any more" - from a well-dressed middle-aged woman*** in a tree-lined street full of seven or eight-figure houses. 

I was waiting for the interviewer to respond, "surely you feel safer than some ten year old in Gaza who has just lost her home and family?"

I don't care which fucking deity you use to justify your prejudices and morals****, killing innocent people is fucking wrong. Is it really so hard for someone to admit that Netanyahu is an absolute cúnt?

*Yeah, I know.

** Who made no claim to have seen or heard any more than anyone else of this incident. I may be an old cynic, but "antisemitic abuse", while unacceptable, could range from "fúck off, heebie" to "kill all jews". However vile it was, however, I'm sure it did less damage than the average airstrike,. 

** for "somewhat surprised", read "totally unsurprised"

**** Each and every one of them appears to be fine with non-believers dying by the million. Gods - a right set of cúnts. At least Buddhist Devas don't concern themselves with mortals. 

 

I get what your saying on most things but on that particular point and on account of what horrible things were actually being shouted out on a megaphone by groups of men I think she is entitled to say that, as would any woman in any neighbourhood who had to put up with that and no women or kids should and I dont see how she or that neighbourhood is to blame for whats happening in Gaza.

Its 2 separate things and should be treated as such even if there is a connection in the minds of the complete lunatics in the cars.

Edited May 19, 2021 by BigDoddyKane

[Newbornbairn]

17 hours ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

 

"Jews don't feel safe in this country any more" - from a well-dressed middle-aged woman*** in a tree-lined street full of seven or eight-figure houses. 

I was waiting for the interviewer to respond, "surely you feel safer than some ten year old in Gaza who has just lost her home and family?"

I don't care which fucking deity you use to justify your prejudices and morals****, killing innocent people is fucking wrong. Is it really so hard for someone to admit that Netanyahu is an absolute cúnt?

 

Nope. No conflation of Jews with Israel there at all, no sirree. Every Jew everywhere is responsible for everything that Israel does, obviously.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Rational thing to do is to emigrate and get your family into a better environment. I met plenty of people from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank who were able to do just that while working in Canada. Like Jake Burns and SLF they didn't waste their lives.

I'm not sure this 'if you don't like it there, then f**k off to another country' is going to be quite the breakthrough in the peace process you think it is tbh.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

1 hour ago, Newbornbairn said:

Nope. No conflation of Jews with Israel there at all, no sirree. Every Jew everywhere is responsible for everything that Israel does, obviously.

Not from me there isn't. From the people in the cars, I would sat more than likely. From the Media in their coverage of this, and indeed almost every incident related to the Middle East, most definitely. Oh, and from the self-defined Jewish State itself. The protests in this country and others in support of Palestinians have arisen at this time as a direct consequence of Israel's latest acts of bullying/land theft/oppression/genocide/self-defence*. Is it really too much to ask if there might be some kind of (even misguided) reasoning behind the actions in this convoy? At least a connection in their minds? Maybe an acknowledgment from those interviewed** that the actions (and self-declared status) of Israel don't exactly endear Jews world-wide to those who would condemn Israel's actions - or even react violently to them?

God knows there are plenty of Jews around who will condemn the current Government's actions and sympathise with the Palestinians to a greater or lesser extent. Good luck seeing balanced coverage of their views on the British MSM, though. As with those decent people who follow Islam and have been condemning exremists' actions for decades, their voices simply don't fit the narrative. 

*Delete according to beliefs.

** I'm past expecting any kind of actual questioning from our "journalists". I am also aware that there will be several varying opinions on the editing suite floor for every one broadcast as well. 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

7 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

I'm not sure this 'if you don't like it there, then f**k off to another country' is going to be quite the breakthrough in the peace process you think it is tbh.

I thought similar - are there many travel agents in Nablus?

[SANTAN]

Yikes. 

[LongTimeLurker]

25 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

I'm not sure this 'if you don't like it there, then f**k off to another country' is going to be quite the breakthrough in the peace process you think it is tbh.

^^^beneath contempt

[AMMjag]

At the very least, it's the first LTL post I've read that didn't send me into a boredom-induced coma.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

13 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

^^^beneath contempt

There's bad people on both sides of our personal argument m8.

Although it looks like you've just lost the strategic balance here my dude.

[LongTimeLurker]

Interesting thing is I also met Israelis in Canada who left because they wanted no part of the ongoing cycle of violence either and wanted to move to a better environment where none of that was happening. Nothing good will happen until both sides stop voting in extremists that see the use of force as part of the solution. One set of extremist nutters feed off the other set of extremist nutters in this sort of scenario and an eye for an eye until everyone is blind...

...but you go on thinking that violence from your good guy side is morally justified and is going to lead to anything other than a complete bloodbath over the long term in an Israel-Palestine context. It's easy to be bloodthirsty with other people's lives from a distance when you have no direct involvement.

[Granny Danger]

If the actions being carried out by Israel on the Palestinians was being perpetrated by any other country there would be outright condemnation across the globe.  As it is the US use their veto powers and every one else offers platitudes.

In this respect Biden is no better than his predecessors, no big surprise.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Interesting thing is I also met Israelis in Canada who left because they wanted no part of the ongoing cycle of violence either and wanted to move to a better environment where none of that was happening. Nothing good will happen until both sides stop voting in extremists that see the use of force as part of the solution. One set of extremist nutters feed off the other set of extremist nutters in this sort of scenario and an eye for an eye until everyone is blind...

...but you go on thinking that violence from your good guy side is morally justified and is going to lead to anything other than a complete bloodbath over the long term in an Israel-Palestine context. It's easy to be bloodthirsty with other people's lives from a distance when you have no direct involvement.

The fact that this has been explained to you multiple times now means that I'm going to have to assume you're simply just arguing in bad faith.

For the last time, this is not an overly complex issue.

One side has enormous power, they are the most powerful country in the region, they are backed by the US and the West, both 'morally' and financially and militarily to the tune of billions of dollars. It is able to act on another population with total impunity and is never held accountable. 

There is no 'both sides', when the sides are so asymmetrical and no amount of 'they should just vote Hamas out', or 'they should just move to another country' or fucking Kum by yah music videos are going to change that.

Let's try another thing though.

Imagine the roles were reversed.

There's an Arab government in Jerusalem and a bunch of Jewish refugees have ended up in the West bank and Gaza. This Arab government have turned 'Jewish Gaza' into an open air prison and bomb it with white phosphorus and kill civilians including children indiscriminately. There's embargoes, little or no medical provision and intermittent electricity and clean running water, there's high rates of malnutrition and low rates of life expectancy.

The Jews in the West bank have a little more freedom, but are still terrorised by the Arab security forces, are forbidden to be in certain areas or use certain roads and Arab settlers have been known to kick them out of their houses and smash their businesses and pull up their crops.

I don't doubt for one second that you (or indeed the US and others) would have no hesitation in calling this out for what it is.

So just fucking stop it.

 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

22 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

If the actions being carried out by Israel on the Palestinians was being perpetrated by any other country there would be outright condemnation across the globe.  As it is the US use their veto powers and every one else offers platitudes.

In this respect Biden is no better than his predecessors, no big surprise.

So, are you telling us that a country which has been condemned by the UN in over 40 resolutions escapes any kind of sanction because of the Veto power of a country which maintains a military presence in over 150 (theoretically) Sovereign Nations?

Well, that's us telt. Give us a hand down off this moral high ground, somebody.